The Horrible EDU/TL Gedanken Rule

[kilemall]

We're having another of those TL discussions in the CT forum, and while cogitating on it I ended up thinking about an aspect of tech knowledge and by extension education.

It's been said that Jefferson's age was the last in which one person could reasonably expect to have read and know most of what there was TO know.

And that we now accelerate the creation of our aggregate knowledge, doubling at a rate something like Moore's Law (although one could also argue for a signal to noise problem that reduces this value, having to figure out what knowledge is relevant and useful).

So higher tech planets by extension have a lot more complex education to bestow, knowing more about how things work and/or being more 'interstellar' in outlook (and so that much more knowledge about other cultures, histories, biomes etc. to learn).

And so, the horrible rule.

A character's starting EDU may never be greater then their homeworld's TL.

So if you are starting from a TL 5 world, you really are a bumpkin education wise.

And it would be natural for well-to-do parents to send their kids to the highest TL world's prep schools and universities in the subsector to get the biggest boost to their children's EDU.

A possible corollary or standalone rule-

A character's finishing EDU may never be greater then their interstellar polity's highest TL.

So there it is.

Don't know that I would ever use something like this, but it should be interesting to discuss and ponder.

 

[RandyB]

I cannot dispute anything you've said, including your characterization of the recommended rules. It's also an elegant way to represent improved education practices and techniques across TLs.

:CoW: How about "educational methodologies" as its own TL breakout category? How might that interact with your recommended rules?

 

[mike wightman]

The education increasing correspondence course shows that anyone can train their Edu up to their Int with books and training materials - I would modify the above to max Edu is equal to Int or local TL, whichever is higher.

 

[Condottiere]

I wouldn't be so quick to link education and tech level, especially considering real life examples.

On a fantasy level, apparently most of the Star Wars universe is illiterate, including the Coruscant proletariat.

 

[kilemall]

I cannot dispute anything you've said, including your characterization of the recommended rules. It's also an elegant way to represent improved education practices and techniques across TLs.

:CoW: How about "educational methodologies" as its own TL breakout category? How might that interact with your recommended rules?

Well that gets into some icky psychological technology areas with political applications that may be too messy for the adventure ethos of the game.

If you can teach better, then you can also indoctrinate better.

Assuming you hold your blinders on and not want to work through that sort of implication, I would presume easier skill/education increase rolls, possibly teacher bots lowering the cost of Instruction at higher TLs.

 

[kilemall]

I wouldn't be so quick to link education and tech level, especially considering real life examples.

On a fantasy level, apparently most of the Star Wars universe is illiterate, including the Coruscant proletariat.

I don't think it's that much of a stretch, given the decrease in costs of holding and disseminating knowledge we are seeing. And cracking the learning 'code' for people would likely make the whole process likely more successful.

Can you cite some RL examples please?

Re: SWU, I'd say we are seeing that in play right now with the post-literate society.

 

[kilemall]

The education increasing correspondence course shows that anyone can train their Edu up to their Int with books and training materials - I would modify the above to max Edu is equal to Int or local TL, whichever is higher.

Well yes of course this would not be intended to override that INT correspondence rule, and the polity rule is meant to deal with chargen not active play- the local TL would rule in actual play.

 

[atpollard]

A character's starting EDU may never be greater then their homeworld's TL.

Where is that rule found?

 

[creativehum]

Where is that rule found?

It is found only in this thread. Kilemall is introducing it. It is what the thread is about.

For myself, I don't get it. It seems one more layer of complexity and tracking stuff I know I wouldn't have the time to track.

As for the PCs themselves: I have always assumed that in character creation, the system is designed to create Travellers... people who are, by definition exceptional and a different breed than most folks who never leave their home worlds or only make a journey between worlds once or twice in their lives.

For such people I can think of a gazillion justifications as to why they rose above the limits any homeward offered.

But, again, that's me. I think for folks who want to play around with the dials the rules and setting offers, it could be a good time.

 

[kilemall]

It is found only in this thread. Kilemall is introducing it. It is what the thread is about.

For myself, I don't get it. It seems one more layer of complexity and tracking stuff I know I wouldn't have the time to track.

As for the PCs themselves: I have always assumed that in character creation, the system is designed to create Travellers... people who are, by definition exceptional and a different breed than most folks who never leave their home worlds or only make a journey between worlds once or twice in their lives.

For such people I can think of a gazillion justifications as to why they rose above the limits any homeward offered.

But, again, that's me. I think for folks who want to play around with the dials the rules and setting offers, it could be a good time.

Well, independent of any fiddly rules engineering funtime, the idea at least to me would be to differentiate worlds and TLs, settings, AND the characters.

So the TL5 backwater planet kid joins the Navy, and takes that EDU 5 on up, seeing a bigger universe.

He goes home upon discharge looking forward to being back where things are simpler, and finds that they really ARE simpler.

His EDU 8 makes him both the most educated man in his circles and unable to relate to his people.

Back off to the starport he goes to sign up on the next freighter out, to his real home amongst the stars.

 

[kilemall]

Where is that rule found?

Gedanken experiment-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

 

[creativehum]

Well, independent of any fiddly rules engineering funtime, the idea at least to me would be to differentiate worlds and TLs, settings, AND the characters.

So the TL5 backwater planet kid joins the Navy, and takes that EDU 5 on up, seeing a bigger universe.

He goes home upon discharge looking forward to being back where things are simpler, and finds that they really ARE simpler.

His EDU 8 makes him both the most educated man in his circles and unable to relate to his people.

Back off to the starport he goes to sign up on the next freighter out, to his real home amongst the stars.

This I dig.

I'm not sure one needs rules-shenanigans to pull that off. (One can create a backstory just like that with the wonderfully evocative character creation rules in Classic Traveller exactly as is.)

But it's lovely. I'm probably going to be thinking about that kid all day long. I'd want to see where that PC ends up.

 

[mike wightman]

Well, independent of any fiddly rules engineering funtime, the idea at least to me would be to differentiate worlds and TLs, settings, AND the characters.

So the TL5 backwater planet kid joins the Navy, and takes that EDU 5 on up, seeing a bigger universe.

He goes home upon discharge looking forward to being back where things are simpler, and finds that they really ARE simpler.

His EDU 8 makes him both the most educated man in his circles and unable to relate to his people.

Back off to the starport he goes to sign up on the next freighter out, to his real home amongst the stars.

So why can't rich people on his home planet import Education correspondence course materials from off world to raise their Edu to be equal to their Int?

Restriction on importing books?

To a world that knows spaceships visit.

 

[aramis]

MT made homeworld TL a kind of additional attribute; if you were using tech more than a couple TL's either direction, you took penalties.

 

[kilemall]

MT made homeworld TL a kind of additional attribute; if you were using tech more than a couple TL's either direction, you took penalties.

I'm definitely riffing off that sort of thing, but this is a bit different view.

The higher educated TL 12 person with an EDU 11 knows that people use keys or other physical devices to start cars at TL 6.

The TL 6 EDU 6 has less chance of knowing TL12 grav vehicles have a whole ident control mechanism.

The TL 12 EDU 6 wastrel that has squandered his high tech educational opportunities may not know about keys.

 

[kilemall]

So why can't rich people on his home planet import Education correspondence course materials from off world to raise their Edu to be equal to their Int?

Restriction on importing books?

To a world that knows spaceships visit.

<Shrug> its not a hard rule by any means, and as the title should indicate I am ambivalent about it's actual use. It's kind of a horrible commentary on the nature of societies, education and the potentially harsh usages of the UPP.

If you like, make the formula

A character's starting EDU may never be greater then their (homeworld TL + SOC/2).


A character's finishing chargen EDU may never be greater then their polity's highest TL.


A character's continuing education/sabbatical EDU may never be greater then the local planet's TL.

Now if you want to be really brutal and follow that class warfare/ignorance theme to it's harsh conclusion, make the (TL+SOC)/2 formula apply across all access to EDU.

Now the SOC 4 really can't get that graduate degree, to pursue academic dreams or just knowledge for it's sake a higher place in society must be obtained.

I don't like that as I prefer a humble beginnings to achievements story dev for our characters, but a controlling society certainly would want to determine access to such resources and SOC rank is the logical means.

And it certainly would provide one hell of a story, both to the character who overcomes the limit, and the one who wants to smash the limits from society forever.

 

[Condottiere]

Drop a bunch of tablets amongst some African village children, presumably recharged by solar energy.

And then you have public education from the highest tech level country on our planet.

 

[kilemall]

Drop a bunch of tablets amongst some African village children, presumably recharged by solar energy.

And then you have public education from the highest tech level country on our planet.

Maybe.

Assuming the village elders don't dunk the tablets into the river as 'Western poisoning of our way of life'.

Assuming the tablets are geared to their culture, language and learning and have the Instruction-1 program built in. That right there would limit the tablet capabilities at our TL in most iterations of Traveller programs.

Assuming the students themselves see the point since the tablets are on about currency rates and wars amongst all those other peoples and working in factories and offices which all seems so remote- yes the planes come and go at the local airstrip but no one they know ever gets on much less returns.

Assuming they have time to mess with the tablets, given the basic effort to survive and the simple struggle to maintain enough food and water.

To paraphrase-

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing tablets is no basis for a system of education. Supreme educational excellence derives from a societal commitment, ability AND resources from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

 

[Timerover51]

I don't think it's that much of a stretch, given the decrease in costs of holding and disseminating knowledge we are seeing. And cracking the learning 'code' for people would likely make the whole process likely more successful.

Can you cite some RL examples please?

Re: SWU, I'd say we are seeing that in play right now with the post-literate society.

On the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific. slash and burn subsistence agriculture and fishing with the people also using computers and operating mechanical equipment such as outboard motors and construction machinery.

In Guyana, outhouses for toilets and communal wells combined with jet skis, radio and TV.

The local tech level in the Solomon Islands would maybe be Tech Level 3 at best for what can be locally produced, all the rest is imports. Guyana about the same.

The old order Mennonites or Amish, living at about Tech Level 3, but fully aware of what is going on in the World via newspapers. Some of the Mennonite communities in Indiana had determined that the use of Hand-held radios for communication of emergencies is acceptable, especially for the buggies operating on the roads.

At the higher Tech Levels, I view information overload as so severe that any knowledge of significantly lower Tech Levels in lost, and a Tech Level 11 person trying to operate on a Tech Level 4 planet would be totally and utterly without knowledge on how to operate. Imagine an individual with Grav-4 trying to ride a horse or the local equivalent, or operate a steam engine. Or a Tech Level 13 Naval (i.e. Starship) Architect trying to build a wooden ship of circa 1750 with just the knowledge in his head.

Do you know the proper way to butcher a hog? Any Amish or Old Order Mennonite farm boy knows, as would have any farmer up through the early 1900s, and some in the South still today. How about squaring a timber for a beam using just hand tools? Just think of how totally helpless a Tech Level 13 individual would be in that situation. Or a character with Gunnery-4 (Space) trying to properly load a flintlock rifle and adjust the flint, or maybe be handed a long bow for his/her survival weapon.

 

[kilemall]

On the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific. slash and burn subsistence agriculture and fishing with the people also using computers and operating mechanical equipment such as outboard motors and construction machinery.

In Guyana, outhouses for toilets and communal wells combined with jet skis, radio and TV.

The local tech level in the Solomon Islands would maybe be Tech Level 3 at best for what can be locally produced, all the rest is imports. Guyana about the same.

The old order Mennonites or Amish, living at about Tech Level 3, but fully aware of what is going on in the World via newspapers. Some of the Mennonite communities in Indiana had determined that the use of Hand-held radios for communication of emergencies is acceptable, especially for the buggies operating on the roads.

At the higher Tech Levels, I view information overload as so severe that any knowledge of significantly lower Tech Levels in lost, and a Tech Level 11 person trying to operate on a Tech Level 4 planet would be totally and utterly without knowledge on how to operate. Imagine an individual with Grav-4 trying to ride a horse or the local equivalent, or operate a steam engine. Or a Tech Level 13 Naval (i.e. Starship) Architect trying to build a wooden ship of circa 1750 with just the knowledge in his head.

Do you know the proper way to butcher a hog? Any Amish or Old Order Mennonite farm boy knows, as would have any farmer up through the early 1900s, and some in the South still today. How about squaring a timber for a beam using just hand tools? Just think of how totally helpless a Tech Level 13 individual would be in that situation. Or a character with Gunnery-4 (Space) trying to properly load a flintlock rifle and adjust the flint, or maybe be handed a long bow for his/her survival weapon.

Covered that above in this entry- TLDR, the highly educated high tech person has a chance of knowing these things, the poorly educated of either lower tech or high tech with no interest/access/aptitude likely will be as helpless as you suggest.

I'm definitely riffing off that sort of thing, but this is a bit different view.

The higher educated TL 12 person with an EDU 11 knows that people use keys or other physical devices to start cars at TL 6.

The TL 6 EDU 6 has less chance of knowing TL12 grav vehicles have a whole ident control mechanism.

The TL 12 EDU 6 wastrel that has squandered his high tech educational opportunities may not know about keys.