The Horrible EDU/TL Gedanken Rule

[McPerth]

<Shrug> its not a hard rule by any means, and as the title should indicate I am ambivalent about it's actual use. It's kind of a horrible commentary on the nature of societies, education and the potentially harsh usages of the UPP.

If you like, make the formula

A character's starting EDU may never be greater then their (homeworld TL + SOC/2).


A character's finishing chargen EDU may never be greater then their polity's highest TL.


A character's continuing education/sabbatical EDU may never be greater then the local planet's TL.

Now if you want to be really brutal and follow that class warfare/ignorance theme to it's harsh conclusion, make the (TL+SOC)/2 formula apply across all access to EDU.

Now the SOC 4 really can't get that graduate degree, to pursue academic dreams or just knowledge for it's sake a higher place in society must be obtained.

I don't like that as I prefer a humble beginnings to achievements story dev for our characters, but a controlling society certainly would want to determine access to such resources and SOC rank is the logical means.

And it certainly would provide one hell of a story, both to the character who overcomes the limit, and the one who wants to smash the limits from society forever.

See that, according this rule:

• People in a TL0 society will all have EDU 0 (is that even posible?)...
• At TL1 (Greece/Rome/middle age) everyone will have EDU 1, regardless of their studies/training (incluiding some of the main classical philosophers)...
• Leonardo da Vinci would have EDU 3 (as it was the TL at his time)...
• Benjamin Franklin would have EDU 3-4...
• Einstein will have had EDU 5-6 when developed the relativity theory...

Sorry, but I cannot buy it. Education has been variable among the society thoughout history, regardless the TL, and this rule will make all people equally educated for most of it.

Of course, education is also relative to TL, and that is (IMHO) better represented with MT rules, as Aramis pointed.

I'm definitely riffing off that sort of thing, but this is a bit different view.

The higher educated TL 12 person with an EDU 11 knows that people use keys or other physical devices to start cars at TL 6.

The TL 6 EDU 6 has less chance of knowing TL12 grav vehicles have a whole ident control mechanism.

The TL 12 EDU 6 wastrel that has squandered his high tech educational opportunities may not know about keys.

OTOH, higer TL ítems use to be more user friendly, and I guess a low TL person will be easier to adapt to a high TL world than the opposite.

A TL 12 person with EDU 11 may know at lower TLs people used cars with gears and pedals, and had to start them with keys, but it's quite unlikley to be able to handle them, while a TL 5 person is more likely to be able to drive a TL12 grav car with user friendly controls (probably just by voice).

A TL 12 doctor will be lost, and probably unable to use his skill, on a TL 3 world (I know few doctors in RL taht could work without lab or radiology support, and even less without antibiotics), while a TL 3 healer will be unimpaired in a TL 12 world (just will not use most of TL12 advantages and keep using his knowledge, in what will be seen as first aid in this world).

 

[aramis]

It also conflates general abilities with primitiveness; while the nature of education's content is definitely TL linked, the definition in CT is "Education indicates the highest level of schooling attained by the individual." And multiple doctorates date back to the middle ages, with the creation of major universities.

The implications of Education as a stat is a broad base of general knowledge appropriate to one's tech level.

Also, compare to early D&D ...

D&D	Str	Dex	Con	Int	Wis	Cha
CT/MT/MGT	Str	Dex	End	Int	Edu	Soc

Edu replaces Wis as a more "high tech" equivalent. (Also proof of "inspiration, not plagiarism".)

There is nothing that says a low tech guy can't be well versed in things that need Edu... Mechanical can be pretty damned low tech and uses edu... (So does Electronics, Jack-o-a-T, Medicine, and Computer.) It's used in Shadows to estimate the stability of a ceiling.

It's the general memory attribute, too. And memory is actually better (more accurate and better at passing short to long term) in most aboriginal societies.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Limited Edu by homeworld UWP stats seems a bit problematic as others have mentioned.

One of the most exciting and interesting storylines possible in Traveller is having a "primitive" character become tech savvy... Say a yokel farmer from a desert world discover the big universe full of princesses, robots, and an evil empire.

Just saying... LOL

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[kilemall]

Limited Edu by homeworld UWP stats seems a bit problematic as others have mentioned.

One of the most exciting and interesting storylines possible in Traveller is having a "primitive" character become tech savvy... Say a yokel farmer from a desert world discover the big universe full of princesses, robots, and an evil empire.

Just saying... LOL

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

My rule doesn't preclude that- he starts EDU 7, gets to wider realms, upgrades EDU.

 

[kilemall]

It also conflates general abilities with primitiveness; while the nature of education's content is definitely TL linked, the definition in CT is "Education indicates the highest level of schooling attained by the individual." And multiple doctorates date back to the middle ages, with the creation of major universities.

All true, but a lot of what was accepted back then would have to be unlearned/relearned at higher TLs. Even things we think are settled scientific theory now are likely to be overturned, much less engineering.

The implications of Education as a stat is a broad base of general knowledge appropriate to one's tech level.

Well now that's the core of the issue- what definition do you use for EDU?

Prior to thinking about EDU as per this thread, I would define it as 'general knowledge and ability/motivation to learn'- not just level of knowledge, but character's tendency to RTFM or not.

The minute a TL3 EDU 11 sage hits the TL10+ InterstellarNet, he's going to be reading books like a madman.

Big thing in my tasking, some people use their higher INT to 'reinvent the wheel' but also solve problems innovatively, others use higher EDU to know and apply the ways things have been solved in the past, and a few have both characteristics high and serious advantages as a result.

The low EDU person is less likely to have book knowledge, and works more off 'I heard it from this guy' sort of knowledge acquisition- in other words, advantaged to the rumor instead of a 'know' roll.

Also, compare to early D&D ...

D&D	Str	Dex	Con	Int	Wis	Cha
CT/MT/MGT	Str	Dex	End	Int	Edu	Soc

Edu replaces Wis as a more "high tech" equivalent. (Also proof of "inspiration, not plagiarism".)

This is a nice table for those that may not have made the connection before.

There is nothing that says a low tech guy can't be well versed in things that need Edu... Mechanical can be pretty damned low tech and uses edu... (So does Electronics, Jack-o-a-T, Medicine, and Computer.) It's used in Shadows to estimate the stability of a ceiling.

It's the general memory attribute, too. And memory is actually better (more accurate and better at passing short to long term) in most aboriginal societies.

I do tend to think of INT as CPU and EDU as Storage in the CT/Robot sense, and vice versa- robots are good at pulling up vast amounts of data to make informed decisions but find new situations tough.

 

[kilemall]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]See that, according this rule:

• People in a TL0 society will all have EDU 0 (is that even posible?)...
• At TL1 (Greece/Rome/middle age) everyone will have EDU 1, regardless of their studies/training (incluiding some of the main classical philosophers)...
• Leonardo da Vinci would have EDU 3 (as it was the TL at his time)...
• Benjamin Franklin would have EDU 3-4...
• Einstein will have had EDU 5-6 when developed the relativity theory...

Sorry, but I cannot buy it. Education has been variable among the society thoughout history, regardless the TL, and this rule will make all people equally educated for most of it.

Of course, education is also relative to TL, and that is (IMHO) better represented with MT rules, as Aramis pointed.[/FONT]

Er, the version you posted, a TL1 SOC 12 person would have a ceiling of EDU 6 instead. That seems reasonable given that having the time and resources to send young men to be corrupted by Aristotle accrued to wealthy elite.

Da Vinci I think would start at a ceiling of EDU 5 (TL3 + SOC 7) and gone up thanks to patronage and SOC increases.

Re: the rest of your 'lost outside TL' post, while I can see the attraction of the 'TL you came from' mods to either extreme approach, the hog butchery example and others people cite are mixing general education with functional skill levels.

Hog butchery is not learned at Oxford, it's a Farming-1 skill.

A mechanical skill person can go to Da Vinci's tech level and use all those levers and pulleys successfully (although find the lack of precision machining daunting), and Da Vinci would likely be up to speed in our time in just a few months given his deep and intuitive Mechanical-4/5/6 skill level (and probably would do things that would astound current practitioners, just cause).

 

[aramis]

Most mechanical engineering principles (being almost pure trial and error) have held up. In fact, there is nothing wrong with the engineering of the great cathedrals nor castles that wasn't known to be an issue by the end of their construction.

What modern engineering has done is to know the limits tighter, rather than major revolutions, and to add new materials.

Other forms of engineering are likewise usually grounded in "We know that this works, can we make it work at this other scale?"

 

[McPerth]

Er, the version you posted, a TL1 SOC 12 person would have a ceiling of EDU 6 instead. That seems reasonable given that having the time and resources to send young men to be corrupted by Aristotle accrued to wealthy elite.

Da Vinci I think would start at a ceiling of EDU 5 (TL3 + SOC 7) and gone up thanks to patronage and SOC increases.

Well, here is one of the main flaws of your rule if anyone wants to use it as written (I suspect just poor wording):

Aristotele and da Vinci could hav intial EDU of 5-6, as you say, if they were SOC high enough, but at the end of their careers, it would revert to 1 and 3 respectively, because

A character's finishing chargen EDU may never be greater than their polity's highest TL

I guess you sould add unless initial EDU was higher, but even so it gives problems.

I forgot to add to the list that none of us (assuming we have finished chargen) can have EDU higher than 7-8, according to this rule (the current TL of Earth is unclear...)

Re: the rest of your 'lost outside TL' post, while I can see the attraction of the 'TL you came from' mods to either extreme approach, the hog butchery example and others people cite are mixing general education with functional skill levels.

Hog butchery is not learned at Oxford, it's a Farming-1 skill.

A mechanical skill person can go to Da Vinci's tech level and use all those levers and pulleys successfully (although find the lack of precision machining daunting), and Da Vinci would likely be up to speed in our time in just a few months given his deep and intuitive Mechanical-4/5/6 skill level (and probably would do things that would astound current practitioners, just cause).

See that the efect of this limited EDU will vary a lot according to the version. Assuming (an extreme case) a TL0 (so EDU 0) doctor (in fact more seen as a shaman) with skill 4 trying to diagnose a disease (average difficulty).

• In CT there's no task system. He will porbably have to roll 8+, skill used as DM (so 4+ for success). Stat does not affect
• in MT, average dificulty is 7*. No modifier due to stat (if he had EDU 15 would be +3) and +4 due to skill, so 3+ for success
• In T4, he would have to roll 2d6 (average difficulty) against stat (0) + skill (4), so 4- on 2d6.
• In MgT he would have to roll 8+ (average difficulty), with a -3 due to stat and +4 due to skill, so 7+

As you see there's quite a variation of the effect according the rules (IDK enough about other versions to talk about them), T4 (and for what I've read T5) being the most affected.

About MT rules, they raised one difficulty level (equivalent to a -4 DM) per TL over or TL group lower the equipment is respect to your standard are quite harsh too, and do not affect only those skills using EDU...

OTOH, in those same TL rules, you keep the homeworld TL regardless your career. So, if someone from a TL4 world joined Imperial Navy and learned Computer, gun combat (lasers), Engineer and Pilot, it would be to use TL4 computers, laser weapons, drives and starships :CoW: :CoW:.

When I refreed MT, I house ruled that characters that had their careers in Imperial services (IN, IISS, Megacorps, if MP chargen was used) were trained in TL 15 (Imperial máximum) hardware, while those in other interstellar careers (Subsector Navy, Marines, non-megacorp merchants, etc) at TL 13 (Imperial Standard), but could also use the homworld TL for some skills (refree's decision), if it was more adventageous.