TNE's core rules do not describe the Imperium at all. TNE is the Reformation Coalition, which is all of 20 years old at the start of the Milieu..
The Imperial Army
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
TNE's core rules do not describe the Imperium at all. TNE is the Reformation Coalition, which is all of 20 years old at the start of the Milieu..
First of all, state that my vision is what Aramis named as option 3, headquarters and huscarles (understood as Royal troops against Noble ones, as in Saxon England before Hastings, not specifically the 4518th).
Imperium rules the space between stars, not the planets themselves. Under this prespective, what's a large standing Army good for?
Army is precisely to control what Imperium does not rule: planets.
This said, Imperium will need ground forces for various opperations, going from peacekeeping forces to occupation of conquered/rebellious planets and to relief forces in disaster or maintenance/defense of bases.
The Imperial Marines are its quick reaction force. Elite troops under Navy command (hence they are not refered as a fourth Imperial servfice, IMHO) that can perform anti piracy or punitive raids, base defense, fleet force projection, etc., but they are too few to perform large operations as needed in major wars or as garrison/invasion/occupation forces for HiPop planets. Here is where the Imperial Army comes to play.
Nonetheless, even a (relative) small Army can perform most of those actions, being supported by local (not necessarly from the same planet, but nearly ones) forces.
The Navy is the main political tool for the Imperium. It must be strong enough to forestall any challenge before it could even start, as any challenge to it is a true challenge to Imeprium.
Armies, OTOH canot directly challenge the Imperium. At most, they can make a planet rebel, but the Navy can interdict it making it an isolated island of rebellion, so not a real challenge to the Imperium itself.
So, while the IN must be strong enough to avoid those challenges, Imperial Army does not need it. The Navy will contain any such situation until forces can be assembled for an invasion (if the siege/blokade alone is not enough). While the IN could also deal with it, I don't see as an standard procedure by it to bomb planets into submission if they can avoid it (Aramis tells us it is within the scope of what 3I has done, but I don't remember any such case. maybe in the Consolidation Campaigns).
And Imperium is a kind of a feudalism, where the Royal forces (be them troops, magistrates or whatever) was quite small in comparison with Nobles', that mostly acted in King's support and representation (or so was expected), the Royal forces forming the core of any large army raised, while its numbers were from feudal troops.
Of course, those feudal troops equivalent in 3I would not be the levies and rable a noble might raise, but the (I guess mostly profesional) local troops, and probably their best units, as they must be able to perform in various environments, with very HiTech support (and probably opposition), and in coordination with other units (Imperial and local/Colonial).
Imperium rules the space between stars, not the planets themselves. Under this prespective, what's a large standing Army good for?
Army is precisely to control what Imperium does not rule: planets.
This said, Imperium will need ground forces for various opperations, going from peacekeeping forces to occupation of conquered/rebellious planets and to relief forces in disaster or maintenance/defense of bases.
The Imperial Marines are its quick reaction force. Elite troops under Navy command (hence they are not refered as a fourth Imperial servfice, IMHO) that can perform anti piracy or punitive raids, base defense, fleet force projection, etc., but they are too few to perform large operations as needed in major wars or as garrison/invasion/occupation forces for HiPop planets. Here is where the Imperial Army comes to play.
Nonetheless, even a (relative) small Army can perform most of those actions, being supported by local (not necessarly from the same planet, but nearly ones) forces.
The Navy is the main political tool for the Imperium. It must be strong enough to forestall any challenge before it could even start, as any challenge to it is a true challenge to Imeprium.
Armies, OTOH canot directly challenge the Imperium. At most, they can make a planet rebel, but the Navy can interdict it making it an isolated island of rebellion, so not a real challenge to the Imperium itself.
So, while the IN must be strong enough to avoid those challenges, Imperial Army does not need it. The Navy will contain any such situation until forces can be assembled for an invasion (if the siege/blokade alone is not enough). While the IN could also deal with it, I don't see as an standard procedure by it to bomb planets into submission if they can avoid it (Aramis tells us it is within the scope of what 3I has done, but I don't remember any such case. maybe in the Consolidation Campaigns).
And Imperium is a kind of a feudalism, where the Royal forces (be them troops, magistrates or whatever) was quite small in comparison with Nobles', that mostly acted in King's support and representation (or so was expected), the Royal forces forming the core of any large army raised, while its numbers were from feudal troops.
Of course, those feudal troops equivalent in 3I would not be the levies and rable a noble might raise, but the (I guess mostly profesional) local troops, and probably their best units, as they must be able to perform in various environments, with very HiTech support (and probably opposition), and in coordination with other units (Imperial and local/Colonial).
3 possibilities:
- RCVG is wrong, since it's contradicted in SEVERAL places. (FFW, SMC, COACC)
- RCVG is talking Reformation Coalition Propaganda and is written "in universe" (Which ISTR Dave Nilsen claiming about other TNE materials, esp portions of AOTRv1:H&I)
- RCVG is making a picayune distinction in that Marines weren't ARMY... (but neglecting to mention they're usually Marine units).
Noting that the 4518 LIR was not "imperial army" ... but originally was in fact an Imperial Marine Regiment!
SMC makes it clear that some Huscarles are seconded from the Marines, NOT the Army... and that the Huscarles are equipped typically of Marine Regiments.
SMC does NOT use the term "Imperial Army" save for mention of a cache of weapons.
5FW - precisely half of the IA units have names - but the numbered units are brigade or higher. (Which implies either they're organized from huscarles from multiple pop ≤ 8 worlds, or there's a standing army. Given COACC, I lean to multiple contributors - especially since the the numbered army units are not called Army nor are they called Colonial... and TL's range from A(10) to F(15)...
Note that the successor 4I provides for the Counts and Dukes to raise huscarles in the role of the 3I's subsector fleets... and local forces are not able to be grabbed to augment the 4I IA, IMC, and IN, but Huscarles may be... Likewise, Counts and Dukes may demand service of a portion of their underlings' Huscarles for their Fief's forces.
The Regency simply migrated Huscarles into the Regency military - no longer a noble's private army, but another group of imperial forces. The Republic of Regina uses the 4518 LIR (which is brigade strength then - 8 Bn) as an elite capital defense force. (1248 v1)
So, Judging from the successors, RCVG is just wrong.
Also, in looking at the sum here, I suspect "Colonial Troops" means the General is local to the world, and the numbered units are the sum of other worlds Regimental and smaller units, combined into higher commands...
Especially since there is mention in other books that Imperial Forces are ALL trained to TL 14 or higher.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Yes, but the TNE sections I'm referring to specifically deal with Imperial practices.
Logically I have a hard time justifying a large standing Army in areas other than where a credible external threat exists because there's just not enough for it to do. This makes a Unified Army attractive for a number of reasons but it's still never sat entirely well with me.
Narratively I like having a centrally led Army available in case I need it to make a game more interesting. (I handle the Navy in a similar way; PCs will run into the Navy's smaller ships but the "big boys" are really just set dressing).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
No, they don't. Unless mine are a misprint and the version scanned for the CT disc is also a misprint none of the regular IA formations in FFW or IE have a homeworld on them. The colonial army forces are given a homeworld on the counter, but not the black on orange regular counters.
You are basing your argument on incorrect or misremembered info. Check your source material and see if it is different to mine.
Both FFW and IE has Imperial Army regular units and colonial Army units drafted into Imperial service. In FFW the colonial units in the Regina etc subsectors are named and have to start on their homeworld, but the colonial Army units that come in as reinforcements do not have their homeword listed.
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why not base the view on the actual situation. unified army? (looks at map of spinward marches) no way.
probably the only way it could be done. almost certainly there would be a bureau of standards somewhere that would guide such units - "outfit to this level", "train to this level", etc, with an eye towards cohesive operations in large-scale conflicts and with an eye towards steering appropriation money to preferred contractors. but unless the event is full-scale warfare with zhodane or some other large polity, in practice it would be highly localized.
well ... while local armies may come and go, there's no reason equipment can't be depoted (sp?). the real limiting factor would be the capabilities of the soldiers themselves. 2 million troops from mora could handle any training and equipment available. 2 million troops from rethe (tech 8) might suffer from information overload when dealing with tech 11 training and equipment.
but likely any reasonable ground force, backed by tech 15 naval guns and supported as necessary by a few tech 15 battalions of fleet marines, could deal with just about anything they're likely to encounter in most situations.
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
If send a military force overseas, and maintain them at the end of several months logistical chain, would we send this:
this:
or this:
?
A tech level or two can't make all that much difference, can it?
this:
or this:
?
A tech level or two can't make all that much difference, can it?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Shipping costs seem to be the bottleneck.
depends on what they're up against. I see appropriate forces being deployed appropriately.
shipyard space seem to be the bottleneck. after you build all your warships there's not much room left over for transport. imtu porozlo (with support from a few other yards) builds most of the transport and junidy builds most of the cargo modules.
You failed to read your rulebook. They are not actually labeled as Army... just Troops.
It has already been discussed, but this is (partially) version dependent.
- In CT, troops must travel in medium passage (at Cr 2000/fourthnight in life support) unless you want to take unaceptable losses due to low berth mortality.
- In MT, troops could travel in low berths, so saving most of of life support costs (in fact, as you don't have to feed nor house them, travel time is less costy than garrisson time).
- In MgT (1st ed, IDK about 2nd ed), I'm not sure about low berth suyrvivality (AFAIK it has never been specified). In any case, the existence of ships barracks (HG, page 66) makes me think they travel awake. If the life support cost for troops in barracks is given, I missed it.
So, yes, it must be one of the bottlenecks, and a reason not to have a large army in a central position, but to have small cadres in strategical points and fill them with available troops as needed.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Roger, roger.
I can't speak to FFW, as I only have the PDF and the counters for the Imperial ground forces are illegible, but in my copy of Invasion Earth, the Imperial counters separate all units into regular, colonial, and mercenary forces, but I don't even see homeworlds on the colonial counters. (But if homeworlds are anywhere associated with the colonial units, I would love to know that.)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You failed to read the counters...
it doesn't mention homeworld on the regular units at all - nor the colonial units in IE or the reinforcements in FFW - which was the central part of your argument.
Try again.
Oh - and army is mentioned on page 6 ten times, and three times on page 7 of the FFW rulebook. So read your rulebook too.
The Imperial Army exists in CT sources as a standing regular army.
Feudal system
Maybe I am taking the feudal system to far, but it seems to me that most worlds would have some imperial nobles. They would have "Huscarles" funded by the noble themselves. Richer upper social class nobles could afford larger better equipped units. Noble estates can provide income to pay for these units. Beyond them I don't see many Imperial Army forces on most worlds.
There might also be special cases like conquered worlds that would need to be garrisoned. That might be Imperial army or planetary forces.
While I have no Traveller sources for this, I can imagine that instead of an estate the Emperor might provide an Imperial Army unit to a noble as a reward, the Imperial treasury paying the unit instead of the noble themselves.
Maybe I am taking the feudal system to far, but it seems to me that most worlds would have some imperial nobles. They would have "Huscarles" funded by the noble themselves. Richer upper social class nobles could afford larger better equipped units. Noble estates can provide income to pay for these units. Beyond them I don't see many Imperial Army forces on most worlds.
There might also be special cases like conquered worlds that would need to be garrisoned. That might be Imperial army or planetary forces.
While I have no Traveller sources for this, I can imagine that instead of an estate the Emperor might provide an Imperial Army unit to a noble as a reward, the Imperial treasury paying the unit instead of the noble themselves.
All the quotes I found in FFW rules book pages 6 and 7 talk of (relatively) samll units bolstering Efate's forces or about hiring mercenaries, so it could perfectly be consistent with a small (huscarles) force to be brought to strenght with local forces.
The specific reference to the newly formed Third (Provisional) Frontier Army even seems ot reinforce this visoin to me, as the use of the words Provisional and Frontier makes me think that Imperial units are likely to be just the core (in fact, the use fo the world Frontier might even mean that it's not an Imperial unit, but a Colonial one).
And, in any case, you'll also read about the Saxon (or Harold's) army in Hastings, or the English (or Henry's) army in Agincourt, while the king's troops in both cases were just a small core, most of the armyes being feudal Noble's troops.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ok - here they are:
We know that the Imperial Army bolsters its forces by hiring mercenary units and drafting colonial army units, but the fact remains there is an Imperial Army of equal standing to the Imperial Navy and Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.
The counters not being labeled as Army, let alone Imperial Army is a subtle distinction (which is lost on Mike, has been for years). Not IDing them as Imperial Army, coupled with later references to most of the army being local units, implies these large numbered formations (which Mike's ignoring that I discussed the large unspecified formations, essentially correcting the oversight he mentions) are not the/an "Imperial Army".
Troops is a REALLY odd word, with lots of meanings.
- From an Officer, it can mean "enlisted personnel", including NCO's; it's the antonym of Cadre, so it generally excludes Senior NCOs (UK Warrants).
- From the NCOs/SNCOs/Warrants, it usually refers to to US E1-E3, UK OR1-2. Note that NCOs are sometimes considered troops, but not always, and when they use it, it's usually self-excluding, so references non-NCOs.
- It's the plural of troop, which is a specific unit size in Cavalry - US/UK it's a Cav Company; many other nations, it's a cav platoon/section
- It's a generic for non-marine, non-police, ground forces.
By not calling it the IA, nor the Army, it's avoiding establishing an imperial army. Calling them Army units (capital A) would be a firm argument for a McInnes/Dougherty style "imperial Army" (These two are responsible for most of the references to the IA in canon).
It's worth noting that "Army" has no hits in Agent of the imperium except for the ranks table in the appendix; Trooper is used for Ship's Troops, who are marines.
It really looks to me like the Army is mostly provincial forces, as there are canon references to that, and the size of the numbered unit counters in FFW is roughly correct for being the provincial forces from those worlds without named counters.
