The Imperial Army
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Oh, rewriting history. Why not just say that then?It's a contraction of "retroactive continuity". It's when an author changes some details about a fictional character and claims that not only is Megaman no longer the long-lost heir to the Kingdom of Arglegarble, he never was, and all the old stories that mentions that relationship should be ignored (on that point).
In his first book, Peter O'Donnell's heroine Modesty Blaise was said to be a refugee child in the refugee camps shortly after WWII. However, each new book took place a few months after the previous one but was published years apart, so eventually Modesty Blaise's perambulations in refugee camps was changed to shortly after the Suez Crisis (IIRC). Turns out she wasn't even born back in WWII days, and what's more, she never was.
Comic books are a fertile field for that sort of thing. Authors (or editors) tend to reboot comic book heroes every seven years or so,
Or, to grab an example completely out of the blue, by the Book 2 rules the Kinunir could be built at TL 10[*]. Later it was established that you needed TL13 to build jump-4 drives (at least in the OTU), so the TL of the Kinunir was changed[*]. The Kinunir was not a TL10 design, and what's more, it never was.
[*] Or so I've been told; I haven't actually checked for myself.
[**] Sadly, GDW muffed it and change it to TL15, but let's not go into that. Painful subject.
Basically it's the intellectual property owner telling you "Forget what I told you before; this is what I'm telling you now, and it's what I say goes."
Hans
The scum bags who first used the term around me did so freely without explaining what it was. I didn't get it, then I asked, got some off handed reply that I didn't understand, and shrugged, figuring my future lawyer would bring it up in a court of law. But I guess it applies more to comic books, games and movies; i.e. non-important junk.
I don't think history's been rewritten too badly here. I think GT's made a couple of missteps, but nothing really irreparable. Traveller isn't really a hard rules games in terms of background. It's there, and you can shape it to your heart's content. Specific devices have hard rules to them, but tech levels? Eh, I shrug at it. My explanation is that some things were 10, others were 12, while a good chunk of gadgets were 15. Problem solved.
And TL is just a generic classification anyway. It's not a real thing you'd use when flying around space in Marc Miller's far future. That is you wouldn't come upon Planet-X, glance at the world data and say "Oh look, it's only a Tech Level 5 planet. No juice or repairs here. Let's go back to that tech level 9 planet. At least there we can get decent food."
Just my take.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
It's the reason why Marc doesn't post here.
:rofl:
QFT!
And priceless. Thanks for the chuckle Dragoner
:rofl:
QFT!
And priceless. Thanks for the chuckle Dragoner
It's funny because it's true.
Welcome!
I guess I belong to the anti-retcon crew, though to be honest I don't care. Then again I was told I'm "elitist" because I am player.... wait...playa haterz!
:rofl:
Wow I'm old, I just got that.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I don't know who does your ship building or feeds you this info but it is completely wrong.Or, to grab an example completely out of the blue
[*] Or so I've been told; I haven't actually checked for myself.
[**] Sadly, GDW muffed it and change it to TL15, but let's not go into that. Painful subject.
Hans
Being over 1000t the Kinunir requires type Y drives or higher for its performance characteristics and that requires a TL of 15 in CT.
I think what you may be getting confused with is the computer requirement in revised CT which limits ships to jump 4 at TL10, no such limit existed in the original Traveller rules. In fact in original CT you can build a jump 6 X-boat at TL 10.
Using HG a Kinunir type ship could be built at TL13.
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First time I heard the term was in the TV series Torchwood. It was the name given to their amnesia drug (usually a pill) they used to maintain their secrecy (often spiking someone's drink with it) ... a bit like the 'flashy thing' in the MIB movies. They even used it as a verb sometimes, as in "He's been retcon'd."
Thanks to this thread I now know the term predates that show. I thought it was just a made up word, so I never bothered Googling for it before.
Uh, no, you can't. TL12, yes, provided you don't want it to be 100Td...
Using Bk2-77
200 Hull
_20 Bridge
__6 Comp 6 (TL 12)
_35 JD F (TL10)
120 JFuel
_12 SRx3 (PME)
__7 Cargo
TL 12.
Note that adding an MD A adds PP A, for 5Td, and a stateroom becomes needed for E#2... so you have to go double occupancy.
Using Bk2-81
800 Hull
_20 Bridge
__6 Comp 6
115 JD M
_67 PP M
480 JFuel
_60 PFuel
_36 SRx 9 PNMEEEEEE
_16 Cargo
Note that the Bk2-81 version has little reason not to go ahead and spend the 7Td on MD D for 1G, as well, and is TL15.
Anything smaller runs out of space before even getting to SRs...
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Except as Mike notes the first B2 rules didn't require that computer model match the jump rating, as long as the computer could run the program, iirc. And I think that brings it down to TL10.
Which means 4 more tons free (2bis), and no reason to not have an MD A and PP A for 1G... if the 2bis was in Bk2-77; otherwise it's 2 tons freed up (Mod 4)... assuming you can swap generate after running for J6...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yeah, I think you can swap generate out, and only need J6 and Nav running.
Not sure about B2 77 having bis model computers though, can't recall. HG 1 did have bis model computers for every model type though, not just m/1 and m/2, all the way up to m/7bis
saundby
SOC-14 1K
Imperial Army Organization
I'm coming from a CT perspective here, but when reading up in the CT CD sources to prepare for playing OTU games, the feel I got that seemed to fit everything I read was that there is a regular Imperial Army as a separate service, but that what Wil says about locally raised or incorporated units is also true.
So the picture I got was a structure that's a mix between early to mid 20th century U.S. Army and late 19th to early 20th century U.K. army (i.e. post reforms on terms, commissions, and organization).
That is, there are three parts to it in peacetime: a "regular army" generally known as the Imperial Army that is always around, plus a reserve force and what might be called "organized militia".
As needed, an Imperial Army along the lines of the U.S.'s "National Army" or "Army of the United States" is organized, with the regular army and reserves forming the core, incorporation of the organized militias, plus activation of any "unorganized militias" (draftees) required. But ordinarily the regular Imperial Army would be a smaller, cheaper, and less powerful force.
Raised armies and local armies would fall under "organized militias."
As to the nature of the Army, the presence of Edu's DM on the survival roll seemed to suggest it's pretty technical, rather than a grunt force. Which fits a small army maintained as a core around which to organize a larger force at need more than a large garrison force maintained at all times.
So I'm seeing the Imperial Army as akin to the standing "regular army". A small, highly skilled force with a deep reserve and a skeleton structure built to expand rapidly.
On the units that have locality names associated with them that are part of the Imperial Army, I'm interpreting them as locals under Imperial control, but...
They might also be interpreted as Imperial units with locality names in their titles, as with the Childers Reforms unit reorganization in the U.K., which might also imply a high level of integration of the local forces with the regular forces. I didn't see anything in the CT rules that would preclude having the Imperial Army modelled on a late Victorian U.K. army in organization.
I guess I should have annotated everything with rule citations, but I'm just posting the conclusions I came to from my own reading, and influenced by my own limited knowledge of the organization of armies past and present. I can see plenty of room in the rules to allow for a range of interpretations within established canon.
I'm coming from a CT perspective here, but when reading up in the CT CD sources to prepare for playing OTU games, the feel I got that seemed to fit everything I read was that there is a regular Imperial Army as a separate service, but that what Wil says about locally raised or incorporated units is also true.
So the picture I got was a structure that's a mix between early to mid 20th century U.S. Army and late 19th to early 20th century U.K. army (i.e. post reforms on terms, commissions, and organization).
That is, there are three parts to it in peacetime: a "regular army" generally known as the Imperial Army that is always around, plus a reserve force and what might be called "organized militia".
As needed, an Imperial Army along the lines of the U.S.'s "National Army" or "Army of the United States" is organized, with the regular army and reserves forming the core, incorporation of the organized militias, plus activation of any "unorganized militias" (draftees) required. But ordinarily the regular Imperial Army would be a smaller, cheaper, and less powerful force.
Raised armies and local armies would fall under "organized militias."
As to the nature of the Army, the presence of Edu's DM on the survival roll seemed to suggest it's pretty technical, rather than a grunt force. Which fits a small army maintained as a core around which to organize a larger force at need more than a large garrison force maintained at all times.
So I'm seeing the Imperial Army as akin to the standing "regular army". A small, highly skilled force with a deep reserve and a skeleton structure built to expand rapidly.
On the units that have locality names associated with them that are part of the Imperial Army, I'm interpreting them as locals under Imperial control, but...
They might also be interpreted as Imperial units with locality names in their titles, as with the Childers Reforms unit reorganization in the U.K., which might also imply a high level of integration of the local forces with the regular forces. I didn't see anything in the CT rules that would preclude having the Imperial Army modelled on a late Victorian U.K. army in organization.
I guess I should have annotated everything with rule citations, but I'm just posting the conclusions I came to from my own reading, and influenced by my own limited knowledge of the organization of armies past and present. I can see plenty of room in the rules to allow for a range of interpretations within established canon.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sorry - my post should have said 200t x-boat.
In original boon 2 rules you don't need a power plant and all you need is a computer that can run the jump program - computer size is not a limit on jump number in original CT.
Note that the CT 100t X-boat can not be built under CT 1981 revised rules.
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I'll point out that using the CGen tables to imply unified services may not be sensible - Police is credulity stretching to use the CT tables as a single unified service, while barbarian is simply credulity breaking. The Army tables need not be taken, therefore, as a single service, but can be taken as "those forces adhering to some standard."
The same can be said for the Merchants and Navy, as well.
And, I went and reread COACC - there is a core "Imperial Army" -
Higher Imperial Command, and Noble command, are not shown in the graphics, tho'.
The same can be said for the Merchants and Navy, as well.
And, I went and reread COACC - there is a core "Imperial Army" -
COACC said:
Higher Imperial Command, and Noble command, are not shown in the graphics, tho'.
COACC was another book I didn't buy, aside from Striker.
Like I commented earlier up, it seems logical to me that there is an actual Imperial Army, but its strength varies from world to world and subsector to subsector.
Another interesting question would be what your average Imperial Army regular grunt is equipped with. I imagine that a battledress grunt with a high energy weapon is probably heavy infantry, or shock infantry. I high tech level soldier might be kitted the same way. But an IA grunt assigned to guard a meson battery might have combat armor instead, and might be toting a high powered ACR or LASER weapon. Something that can punch through BD armor.
Like I commented earlier up, it seems logical to me that there is an actual Imperial Army, but its strength varies from world to world and subsector to subsector.
Another interesting question would be what your average Imperial Army regular grunt is equipped with. I imagine that a battledress grunt with a high energy weapon is probably heavy infantry, or shock infantry. I high tech level soldier might be kitted the same way. But an IA grunt assigned to guard a meson battery might have combat armor instead, and might be toting a high powered ACR or LASER weapon. Something that can punch through BD armor.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hmm, there is that. I'd never really registered that fact. Mental blinders
I always figured Navy and Scout Bases were support for starships operated by each. The Army wouldn't need that so I never saw the lack of bases.
A quick fix jumps to mind
All Imperial Starports are also (automatically) Imperial Army Bases
Obviously only counting A through D of course. Hmm, I wonder if such Army Bases might help straighten out some other seemingly bent bits? Like screwy populations?
S3 has army troop barracks at way stations, otherwise, there isn't a code for army bases LBB3/S3.
edit: ugh I think I broke my brain (6 page managerial accounting papers and their accompanying 9 page excel spreadsheets will do that), as I wrote that, this went through my brain:
"A jaunty life for me in th' Imperial armee..." sort of kiplingish. makes sense though is that the imperial army rarely lays roots and would be found where they are needed.
edit: ugh I think I broke my brain (6 page managerial accounting papers and their accompanying 9 page excel spreadsheets will do that), as I wrote that, this went through my brain:
"A jaunty life for me in th' Imperial armee..." sort of kiplingish. makes sense though is that the imperial army rarely lays roots and would be found where they are needed.
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Hmm, there is that. I'd never really registered that fact. Mental blinders
I always figured Navy and Scout Bases were support for starships operated by each. The Army wouldn't need that so I never saw the lack of bases.
A quick fix jumps to mind
All Imperial Starports are also (automatically) Imperial Army Bases
Obviously only counting A through D of course. Hmm, I wonder if such Army Bases might help straighten out some other seemingly bent bits? Like screwy populations?
Standing armies need bases FAR more than navies do, and they're borderline essential for navies. (It's possible for a navy to operate out of civil yards and ports without dedicated bases. It's not wise, it's not practical, but it is doable.)
They need them for training, and to keep the troops and civilians apart. For the safety of the civvies, and the sanity of the troops. (Looking at the places where they don't keep a tight border, the areas near the basing tend to become slums. Sad but recurrent trend. Places that have no bases, they tend to be military dictatorships... think the practical side of the Royalists during the AmRev.)
Further, bases provide an easy place for naval pick-up and transport to the theater.
I grew up around an army base - son of two army officers. Without the base, the army loses its distinct culture, and without that, its efficacy and ability to suppress the locals.
Note that, IMTU, the Huscarles tend to be the closest thing to a standing army of the Imperium - and the standard fief is the starport, so yes, there are "imperial army forces" at most starports IMTU... but they aren't so much loyal to the Imperium as loyal to the local Noble.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Absolutely.
My blinders weren't that I didn't think armies would need bases, but rather that I just never twigged to the lack of a UWP code for army bases. In my mind the bases were always there, but they were strictly world based, while the noted bases (Navy and Scout) were (generally) orbital and primarily concerned with ships (and required specific notation for that).
Also the UWP generation step of checking for Navy and Scout bases, but not Army bases, I interpreted to mean there was always an Imperial Army base. I think the starport serving as that base fits pretty well. It's the mandate I most often associate with my IA, defence of Imperial interests ON the world, primarily the Starport. And it allows for easy access.
The primary loyalty issue isn't much of an issue, with the presumption that loyalty to the local Imperial noble is pretty much defacto loyalty to the Imperium itself.
As for base slums, well, pretty much everyone seems to have a Startown associated with the Starport, and generally they are that sort of support slum one thinks of next to military bases. That seems to jive for putting Imperial Army bases with the Starport too
