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The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN

RainOfSteel

SOC-14 1K
I'm not sure how far this topic will go.

Over in Fleet Structures & funding, we have run into some difficulty with the terms, reserve, reserves, and reservists, their multiple menaings, and when to identify when an individual is discussion which meaning of which term.

Can we come up with a more exactly set of terminoloy to aid us in our disucssions of these and associated topics?
 
Sadly it's another of those things that is Traveller version specific.

A reserve fleet in CT is a tactical reserve, a reinforcement. It may be either an Imperial Navy fleet or a Colonial Navy fleet

A reserve fleet in MT is what the CT OTU called a Colonial fleet.

A reservist usually conjures up its real world meaning...
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Sadly it's another of those things that is Traveller version specific.

A reserve fleet in CT is a tactical reserve, a reinforcement. It may be either an Imperial Navy fleet or a Colonial Navy fleet

A reserve fleet in MT is what the CT OTU called a Colonial fleet.

A reservist usually conjures up its real world meaning...
I'm willing to buy into these definitions.

However, what I was hoping to do is find a way to obviously differentiate.

Or are we reduced to using references like CT:Reserve(s) or MT:Reserve(s); as we have CT:Credits and GT:Credits?
 
To avoid much confussion I would think the latter is the way to go.

We can't change what's written for MT anymore than we can change what's written for CT.

And the two are at odds with each other :(
 
There is little to suggest, canonically, that the reserve fleets are manned by anything other than full timers.

System fleets are mentioned in HG, but are not explicitly part of MT or later canon; likewise, they are not prohibited by canon, either...

However, The MT reserve fleets are assets of the imperial navy.
 
Another kicker in the pants issue is what kinds of ships are where? If you look at what they refer to in "reserve" style ships - they are ships that are considered obsolete. By WHAT standard is a ship judged obsolete? Is it by Tech level? If that is the case, any non-TL 15 ship design is no longer cutting edge right? Yet by definition, a subsector fleet has ships that can be procured from shipyards within the subsector. That in Turn begs the question "But what if you can purchase a higher tech level fleet from the subsector that is adjacent to yours?"

So what by definition is an obsolete ship? A brand new TL 12 ship is NEW for the navy that just got it, but obsolete by Imperial Navy standards?
 
Going by the counters in FFW the Colonial reserves include four BatRons that are the equivalent to the best Imperial squadrons.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">C.B4 PS 5-4-8 four numbered squadrons
I.B4 US 6-2-8 four squadrons
I.B4 US 5-1-7 three squadrons
I.B3 US 8-0-4 six squadrons
I.B3 US 4-4-4 six squadrons</pre>[/QUOTE]C = Colonial squadron
I = Imperial squadron
PS = partial streamlining
US = unstreamlined
Attack factor - bombardment factor - defence factor
 
Looking at the counters again I would pick out
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">I.B4 US 6-2-8 four squadrons
I.C5 PS 5-4-6 two squadrons
I.C6 S 4-2-8 four squadrons</pre>[/QUOTE]as being cutting edge designs.

It's quite an interesting exercise to compare the FFW counters with the IE counters.
Similar combat values crop up, e.g.:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">I.BR US 5-4-8 two squadrons
I.BR US 4-4-4 six squadrons</pre>[/QUOTE]Are the Colonial squadrons of FFW the Imperial ships of a century ago?
Are they new builds to an old design, or are they hand me downs?
Has the Imperial Navy fully equipped to TL15 by the start of the FFW?

By the looks of things they still operate quite a number of TL13/14 ships.
 
If you use the optional rule about quality types - Imperial Naval counters of exactly the same values as Colonial naval counters - suffer a quality die modifier on the combat table. Thus, even though even in attack and defense values, the colonial ships will still suffer a higher loss ratio. Is this quality modifier for lower tech ships or lower training? Both? Neither?
 
I think the TL should be represented by the combat factors of the ship, crew experience and training should be what determines the Fleet Quality modifier.
Unfortunately the FFW optional rule mentions that TL differences are part of the reason for the Fleet Quality modifier.
I can't recall if there is such a rule in IE, I'll have to go and check...
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
There is little to suggest, canonically, that the reserve fleets are manned by anything other than full timers.

System fleets are mentioned in HG, but are not explicitly part of MT or later canon; likewise, they are not prohibited by canon, either...

However, The MT reserve fleets are assets of the imperial navy.
If the reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy and staffed by full-timers, then why call them Reserve Fleets and not just normal Fleets?

As an Example. In the US Army, (I think we decided that Ground Forces Parallels were more accurate.) in the mid to late 80s, when there was still a perceived threat of war between NATO and the Soviet Union, there were several Divisions stations in Continental US. The 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized) was stationed at Ft. Riley, KS. The 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) (Hereafter referred to as 1ID and 5ID respectively.) was stationed at Ft. Polk, LA. There were several differences between these divisions, aside from the obvious Number. 1ID was part of VIIth US Corps, which was assigned to West Germany, in the Fulda River area. 5ID was assigned to III US Corps at Ft. Hood Texas. VII US Corps was expected to delay and stop an invasion of Western Germany and 1ID was assigned as VII Corps counter attack force. 1ID had 2 Brigades in Kansas and one deployed in Germany, plus a full set of equipment prepositioned in Germany so that within 72 hours of the start of hostilities 1ID could be counter attacking Soviet forces. All three Combat brigades were full time Active Duty. 5ID stationed at Ft. Polk was organized along more traditional lines with 2 Brigades active duty (one Mech and one Armored) and the third brigade was the 256th Infantry Bde (Mechanized), LA National Guard, otherwise known as a round out or capstone brigade. III US Corps was the US Strategic Reserve and movement orders and plans were designed around a 30-90 day deployment window, not be ready to leave at a moments notice. (Boy did that become obvious when elements of III Corps were told to prepare for movement to Saudi Arabia for Desert Shield.) 1ID had to be ready to leave, right now.

1ID got new equipment, generally as it became available, usually right after the units that were on the expected front lines. (Right after those units already deployed in Germany and South Korea.) 5ID got new equipment after everyone else was already at full strength. (For example they were still using M60 tanks more than 2 years after 1ID finished getting their M1 tanks and 1ID got two sets of M1 tanks before 5ID got its first M1 for training.) 1ID combat elements got M16A2s the first year they were deployed, 5ID some time later and elements of III Corps were still using M16A1s 5 years later.

So while 5ID filled a strategic reserve role and 1ID was a rapid deployment frontline division it was still 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) not 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized, Reserve).

If the fleet is manned full time that also means it will be performing the same full time missions, even if it isn't expected to be on the jagged end of the bottle at the opening of hostilities. All manned fleets will be involved in showing the flag, as guard ships, being used as a show of force, anti-piracy patrols, and conducting exercises and squadron jumps. The reason is that all of these operations are good training. It helps keep the locals properly impressed, and Pirates properly suppressed. A unit that sits around in its butt, instead of training, will not be ready for combat when it is actually called. It also would allow your newest most capable units to be concentrated in areas at the jagged end of the bottle.

Besides to a typical Corsair, SDB, local despot, etc. (the guy on the wrong end of the spinal weapon) does it really matter what kind of ship is behind that spinal? What is the practical difference, unless you yourself happen to also be in a capital ship, between a TL-14 17,500ton Light Cruiser, a TL-13 60,000ton Heavy Cruiser or a TL-15 500,000ton Drednaught? Outside of capital ship combat, they all fill the same role. So there should be a difference between a "Reserve Squadron" and a "Regular Squadron." Though the difference might be as simple as the funding source, I find that harder to swallow.

Now according to the Rebellion Sourcebook, pg. 27.
Reserve fleets are equipped with obsolescent-but still useful-starships which have been retired from frontline Imperial service; they are staffed by personnel serving in the Reserves (technically in the service of the Imperium, but without the status of strict Imperial Navy duty).
That sounds like traditional part time reservists to me. I knew I read something that made me think part time somewhere.


With regards to system squadrons, on page 29 of the same book.
System Squadrons are not assigned to any fleet. Instead of such an assignment, they are based in a home system with tech code Early Stellar (Tech Level 9+) and moderate population (Population 4+).
It also states that System Squadrons are not jump capable.

It does state that Colonial Squadrons are assigned to the Reserve Fleets. Yet distinguishes between Imperial Reserve and Colonial.

So my interpretation is there are actually three levels of command yet 4 levels of squadrons. The Reserve fleets are comprised of Imperial Reserve squadrons and Colonial Squadrons. I like the Colonial Squadrons being locally raised and locally answerable unless or until time of crisis.


Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium doesn't list Reserve just Colonial. Neither of these references specifically lists locally raised squadrons. So in MT the only naval vessels that are not under direct Imperial control are the system squadrons, which don't have jump capable ships.

In CT the levels of command are not well defined, and the only place where I can currently find differences are LBB5 Char Gen, which lists Imperial, Subsector, and Planetary. It doesn't break down areas of responsibility, command structure or organization.
 
And yet there is no option to be an Imperial Naval "reservist" (i.e. mustered out of the Navy, part timer, or whatever) in CT, MT or any other version for that matter.

There is no Naval equivalent of the Scouts' detached duty in the mustering out tables, nor can you generate a character who is a merchant but serves part time in the Naval reserve.

Subsector Navy = Colonial squadrons = Reserve Squadron.

IN use the term Reserve Squadron behind closed doors and when planning.

Subsector Dukes uses the term Colonial Squadron to foster espirit de corps.

As I posted on the other thread where this came up originally, I reckon that MT takes an Imperial down view of things, while CT took a local and up view.
 
Very interesting observation, Sigg. Sounds like Yet Another Way to open up T5's chargen system. In fact, the "Overview" for the T5 cg draft hints at it:

Current Career. Provision is made for characters to continue playing in their service in some way that allows freedom of action while within a larger organization.

T5... look for it in the Far, Far Future!
toast.gif
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Subsector Navy = Colonial squadrons = Reserve Squadron.
I disagree. Subsector navies have either been retconned out of existence or they are distinct from reserve fleets.

I think that the authors of MT did intend their MT material to retcon subsector navies out of existence. I simply don't think it is either necessary nor desirable to accept that. I like the concept of subsector navies (or duchy navies as I prefer to call them).

The meta-reason why subsector navies isn't mentioned in MT is undoubtedly that the authors substituted the IN reserve fleets for them. But I prefer to believe that the in-game reason why they weren't mentioned was that they were lumped together with those other colonial forces, the system navies.

So I suggest that the Imperial naval setup is a three-tier system where the top tier is split into two:

1 Imperial Navy
......Imperial Navy regular fleets
......Imperial Navy reserve fleets
2 Duchy Navies
3 System Navies


Hans
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
If the reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy and staffed by full-timers, then why call them Reserve Fleets and not just normal Fleets?
Because the meaning of the word has changed slightly by 5630 AD?


Hans
 
the local provinces (subsectors) maintain reserve fleets
taken from Navy advanced character generation, MT PM (words in italics are theirs, by the way - it's how it's written in the book).
local provinces (subsectors) also maintain navies
taken from HG intro, both editions.

High Guard didn't mention Colonial fleets, they were part of the CT OTU, referring instead to subsector Navies.

Colonial squadron = subsector Navy

MT character generation has the reserve fleet fill exactly the same niche as the subsector Navy in HG. It is a full time occupation.

Reserve fleet = subsector Navy

By calling it a Reserve fleet, MT has caused people to confuse reserve and reservist (part timer or retired regular).

I don't believe that the Imperial Navy maintains a separate "reserve" fleet (meaning second rate, outdated ships etc. rather than tactical reserve), it relies on imperializing the Colonial forces as outlined in the MWM Battlefleets of the Marches article (which doesn't make any mention of an Imperial Navy "reserve" fleet either).

CT sources mention that outdated IN ships are paid off or placed in ordinary, awaiting scrapping or refurbishment. They make no mention of the ships being handed over to subsector navies.

I therefore have to disagree with your four-in-three tier system, I think the simplest solution is that the Imperial Navy Admiralty planners refer to subsector fleets as "Imperial Navy Reserves", while the locals call these same fleets Colonial fleets.

I like the term Duchy Navy as well...
 
Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
If the reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy and staffed by full-timers, then why call them Reserve Fleets and not just normal Fleets?
Because the meaning of the word has changed slightly by 5630 AD?


Hans
</font>[/QUOTE]That may be the case. However it was definitely written using 20th Century meanings.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
High Guard didn't mention Colonial fleets, they were part of the CT OTU, referring instead to subsector Navies.
There's a big difference between a Navy and a fleet. One is the complete naval establishment of a nation including yards, stations, ships, and personnel; the other is a number of warships under a single command.

MT character generation has the reserve fleet fill exactly the same niche as the subsector Navy in HG. It is a full time occupation.

Reserve fleet = subsector Navy
There's a fundamental difference between the subsector navies and the reserve fleets. The reserve fleets are part of the Imperial Navy, the subsector fleets are not. The question of whether or not either or both are full-time occupations (I think they both are) is not the issue.

I don't believe that the Imperial Navy maintains a separate "reserve" fleet (meaning second rate, outdated ships etc. rather than tactical reserve),
The same source that you quote as authority for the existence of reserve fleets says that they are exactly that -- second rate, outdated ships.

it relies on imperializing the Colonial forces as outlined in the MWM Battlefleets of the Marches article (which doesn't make any mention of an Imperial Navy "reserve" fleet either).
Not according to MT sources.

CT sources mention that outdated IN ships are paid off or placed in ordinary, awaiting scrapping or refurbishment. They make no mention of the ships being handed over to subsector navies.
IMO some subsector navies (e.g. the Duchy of Mora Navy) wouldn't spit on an IN hand-me-down whereas others (e.g. the Duchy of Regina Navy) would buy all they could get their hands on.

I therefore have to disagree with your four-in-three tier system, I think the simplest solution is that the Imperial Navy Admiralty planners refer to subsector fleets as "Imperial Navy Reserves", while the locals call these same fleets Colonial fleets.
You pick and choose your bits of canon to support your view and I pick and choose mine. I think my version preserves more bits of canon than your version does (though admittedly by no means all) and I also think subsector navies are more fun than reserve fleets.


Hans

I like the term Duchy Navy as well...
 
The term Colonial Navy, implies local resources, unless that changes definition as well.


The reserve fleet is defined as overage, semi-obsolete ships. Colonial Navies raised from local resources may or may not be up to the standards of Naval cast offs. I personally prefer having them as two seperate forces. The Subsector Navies handling local problems and leaving the Imperial Navy free to deal with Strategic Problems.
 
Originally posted by Hans:
There's a big difference between a Navy and a fleet. One is the complete naval establishment of a nation including yards, stations, ships, and personnel; the other is a number of warships under a single command.
And I've just realised there is no such thing as a Colonial Fleet counter in FFW. They are all Imperial Navy fleets.
Colonial squadron is a designation that is used in CT and in the MT RS, but the IN views them only in terms of their Reserve Fleet status.
It is still my contention that the locals would view them differently - until hostilities break out and the IN starts ordering them around that is.
The same source that you quote as authority for the existence of reserve fleets says that they are exactly that -- second rate, outdated ships.
Ah, but I don't believe they are old, second rate, outdated ships ;)
I think that they would be new builds, built to IN (declassified) specs.
Like you, I doubt if the Vincennes Planetary Navy would accept an AHL as anything other than a garbage scow ;)
You pick and choose your bits of canon to support your view and I pick and choose mine. I think my version preserves more bits of canon than your version does (though admittedly by no means all) and I also think subsector navies are more fun than reserve fleets.
Isn't this all part of the fun that this old game of ours gives us


An interesting discussion Hans, it's helping me to think about things.

Thanks.

Mike
 
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