Can you point me to the page and paragraph for this date please?
The Solomani, not just bad guys anymore
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
Can you point me to the page and paragraph for this date please?
The Assassination occurs on 132-1116.
The inside cover of the MegaTraveller Players Manual has a map of the Spinward Marches which shows the Federation of Arden controlling the seven systems I listed.
The Spinward Marches Data section of the MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia starts on page 94. It lists a Federation of Arden allegiance code. Page 99 of the same book shows the same map found in the Players Manual.
There are also the sector/domain maps published by DGP is various TD and MTJ issues.
I don't disagree with its position or ability to profit as best it can. I think the Imperium has an incident that takes precedent a few weeks into 1116 that changes the state of the realm and the Arden priority
I wish to consider that particular citation as the whole paragraph as the topic sentence refers to the Imperial Navy, follows to subsector, and then on to the planetary navy. (A naval structure well-used within the Imperium)
Arden can build its own ships down-port. They would be streamlined and subject to the maximum dtonnage permitted. They would be J-1 as TL9.
Do not dispute this happens, (or will happen.) I pointed out that Arden is tolerated more than recognized as a planet in this buffer zone.
I would really like a reference I may have missed somewhere that justs the Imperium "supported, encouraged, or covertly assisted." We know it is an espionage center and clearly not a Client State of the Imperium nor the Consulate. In another post I got my Behind the Claw reference shot down but I believe canon in the OTU at year 1116 must be identical, until the split timeline on 132-1116. (okay, the ship explosion did occur on day 131 but now we are just splitting hairs.
This is a very logical analysis and conclusion. It is also not canon.
While the precise POD between the OTU and GTU/Lorenverse has never been revealed, it did not occur on 132-1116, 131-1116, or even during 1116.
In the OTU, a huge number of previously planned events and actions took place in the Domain of Ilelish on the same day that the Assassination occurred on Capital.
In the ATU/Lorenverse, almost none of those previously planned events and actions occurred. Someone was actively dismantling Dulinor's plot for months prior to his death on 131.
All of this has been discussed ad nauseam here, on the TML, at the SJGames forums, and elsewhere for decades now.
When you find yourself in the hole, it's always best to put down the shovel.
Is there a maximum tonnage to be streamlined or able to land in a planet (and so to be built downport)?
We discussed it time ago, and ITTR none is given in either CT or MT, though most of us assumed there should be...
In any case, in CT no TL9 shp may be 10000 dtons of more, as they would need computer 4, and this is TL 10. This, along with J1 (also TL9 limit) would be the main limits for Arden fleet, at least until they can be refited (or built in he same way) in Tremous Dex (though their shipyards are likely to be limited, due to its low population)
Argeable. If you read the article The Ecology of Piracy on the Spinward Main (JTAS 19, page 9), you'll see that Tremous Dex is cited as one of the five worlds that can be a good pirate haven.
Nonetheless, I already pointed this was my interpretation (and so to a point IMTU), but I've always pictured Tremous Dex as a kind of Port Royal or Tortuga Island in its zone.
This map is not dated. And sets the galaxy into factions that cannot exist before 1117 (see below.)
The Players Manual does have a reference to the Federation of Arden in the text box on the bottom of page 91. It states the "Federation of Arden follows its own diplomatic line designed to maintain independence from both the Zhodani and the Imperium." This implies at the start point of Rebellion Arden in staying "neutral" between the two big boys of the region; so not drawing attention to itself by grabbing planets militarily.
Page 95 does, in fact, show it aligned the Federation of Arden; please note it is also shows that Arden's Tech Level is 8 which makes their starship building even harder. (see below re: factions)
There are a lot of maps but they do not represent 132-1116. The faction maps in the referee's guide(s), players manual, rebellion and others do not show the detail you argue as canon.
This is canon as I understand it -- the news of the assassination took at least 51+ weeks to reach the Spinward Marches (and the Federation of Arden by extension). Even Archduke Norris on Regina did not get the assassination news until 49 weeks later. So... the factions these maps represent could not exist in Spinward Marches in mid- 1116 and the canon you suggest above even reports they didn't exist at least mid-1117 (not sure if TD still counts as canon unless it's re-published.)
Wrong. The map only shows the Spinwards Marches and not the "galaxy". The map also does not refer to any "factions". In fact, Imperial territory is referred to as the "Third Imperium" and not the later factional label "Domain of Deneb".
It implies something, just not what you want to think it does.
The pre-Fifth FW maps in SMC show the Federation consisting of Arden, Zircon, and Utoland. The post-Fifth FW and pre-Rebellion map in MT's PM shows the Federation consisting of those three systems plus four others.
The PM also states that - since the Rebellion began - the Federation has not been drawing attention to itself by grabbing planets.
The 5th FW ended in 1110 and the Rebellion, from the Marches viewpoint, began in 1117. That allows seven years for the billions of Arden supported by the millions on Zircon to annex a handful of systems with populations in the tens of thousands with at least the acquiescence of the Imperium.
We've explained a few times now that your fixation on TL and starport ratings is overblown. Please re-read those posts.
You don't understand the date of the PM's Marches map so that understanding is faulty.
This "discussion" began when you confused the Federation of Arden with the Zhodani Consulate and, as you've become more confused about more topics, the "discussion" has become more tedious. I'm going to leave it to the other members to explain things from now on.
Have fun.
MT suggests that 1,000 dtons is the maximum ship size serviced down-port. MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, p32 (under Naval Base).
Streamline ships are required on Arden (the original topic) but streamlining is required for all atmospheres above UWP 1. Ships with configurations 1-6 may land on atmospheres 0 and 1. CT:HG2 p 17.
The real difficulty of discussing canon is defining what is canon and then going back to make sure something you read 25-30 years ago still counts.
For instance, I found this post on the FFE wiki site: Traveller canon excludes articles published in Journal of the Travellers Aid Society, Challenge, and Travellers' Digest magazines unless the articles have been re-published in another canon source.
Where did this come from? I corrected a reference to the "Confederation of Arden." Also, asserting at the same time that Arden was and inconsequential planet claiming sovereignty on the fringe
HERE was my original post:
You here, of course, incorrectly imply by consent to use and/or make reference to the Confederation of Arden that it exists or is even considered to exist as an independent "state" or "territory." We, in the Imperium, don't refer to it at all. We use the more "educated" term of the Zhodani Consulate (and known Enemy of the State), Foreven Sector (an area reserved for personal campaign stories and outside the scope of OTU in every known licensed version), or the Spinward Marches.
There is no Confederation of Arden as I identified to the previous poster.
Please, continue your personal attacks. Clearly, your mastery of the Player's Manual is the source all the MT canon. For gods sake, they wouldn't dare put anything maybe in the Referee's Manual
To throw fuel onto this bonfire.
To Whipsnade's point
Whatever the POD the Lorenverse has it is before the assassination itself. Dulinor "knew" he was going to succeed or die trying with an assumption he would succeed and set up his apparatus before he left Dlan. With weeks and weeks of travel, Dulinor had to set up thing at home to go with assumed success.
To Taav's point,
The Megtraveller map and UWPs are undated and not reflective of each other.
The Map on the inside of Player's Handbook cover shows a presumably pre-Rebellion map. You can tell because of the singular border going thru Glisten Subsector.
The UWP's found in Imperial Encyclopedia show that all worlds in Glisten Subector except 1731 Grote and 1733 Lydia are Aslan controlled. Also Vargr of one sort pr another have taken over Aramis Subsector.
So either one or the other is wrong or they in fact reflect different time periods. I did the Rebellion Era map on travellermap based on allegiance found in Imperial Encyclopedia.
I feel the urge to resume mapping inexorabletash...
To Whipsnade's point
Whatever the POD the Lorenverse has it is before the assassination itself. Dulinor "knew" he was going to succeed or die trying with an assumption he would succeed and set up his apparatus before he left Dlan. With weeks and weeks of travel, Dulinor had to set up thing at home to go with assumed success.
To Taav's point,
The Megtraveller map and UWPs are undated and not reflective of each other.
The Map on the inside of Player's Handbook cover shows a presumably pre-Rebellion map. You can tell because of the singular border going thru Glisten Subsector.
The UWP's found in Imperial Encyclopedia show that all worlds in Glisten Subector except 1731 Grote and 1733 Lydia are Aslan controlled. Also Vargr of one sort pr another have taken over Aramis Subsector.
So either one or the other is wrong or they in fact reflect different time periods. I did the Rebellion Era map on travellermap based on allegiance found in Imperial Encyclopedia.
I feel the urge to resume mapping inexorabletash...
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It is nice. It took me "too" long to discover the experimental buttons. In my defense, and not saying I am totally right, even you dated the map 1120
I know, I myself used this as an example for assuming there should be a imit, but the fact that Naval bases have ground facilities to serve ships up to 1000 dtons does not preclude larger ships to be able to land, just hints that they are better serviced in orbital facilities.
The Kinunir lines and outlaying hints (at least IMHO) that it's able to land (why else would it have wings?), and yet it's over 1000 tons (albeit not by much).
1120 is the assumed date of Rebellion for the maps. inexorabletash set that part up. It is not 100% accurate, date assumed or stated ~1117 (Players Handbook) to 1124 ("pre-Hard Times" Diaspora Sector data). Most sectors and articles written (but not ALL) use 1120 as the springboard date.In my defense, and not saying I am totally right, even you dated the map 1120
To be clear on the UWP's if you grab the Rebellion data off Travellermap: The data is hybridized.
I used T5 physical data as the basis (Stars, Worlds, BG, Size, Atmo, Hydro)
Allegiance is 1120. 1105 Zones stay. Physical Trade Codes like Sa, Tz, Fr Lk, kept. Sophont percentages kept.
Starport, Pop, Gov, Law and TL are examined to determine variances between 1105 and 1120. Make decisions on valid values so 1120 does not look too crazy and remains T5 compliant.
Trades Codes, Importance, new Zones etc. are recomputed based new resolved UWP. Extension recomputed without having to reroll in the case dice rolled extension values.
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I do not consider artwork to be canon (meaning data -not the picture- is the rule). Wings "would/could" be semi-streamlined to scoop up hydrogen in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant.
But, I am looking for a better cross-Milieu citation for you.
I wish you luck on it. As I told, we already discussed this some time ago, and no one could bring it to bear. And be sure I looked for it myslef, as I really belive there should be a limit, though not sure about which one.
You all certainly like messing with the new guy
All I got today is the following:
GT:Starports p8 and p11 suggests max dton on ground at 1,000.
CT: S11-Library N-Z, p (Scout Base) p 18 states max dton on ground at 1,000.
Almost all references, CT, NE, MgT, MT, GT, T5 require Class A Starport for any jump drive installation (not sure why that must be done "in space")
I also will admit my child is currently in possession of my T5 hardcopy. I will not get it back until Spring Break I am sure. :rofl: but I have a note on a personal worksheet that suggests ACS are maxed at 2,500. dtons
You all certainly like messing with the new guy
New guys can have a fresh point of view, and their oppinions are less predictable than veterans'
. I don't own GT:Starports, so I cannot talk about it.
About S11 Scout Base entry, it just says the ground facilities are for ships of 1000 dtons or less, but (as told about IN bases above), that does not mean larger ships cannot land, just taht those facilities are not for them, hinting that they are better served in orbit.
True, and even TCS talks about this, but in any case, CT:HG reference to planets being able to build ships planetside disregarding the existence or not of shipyards remain...
Was this just a gateway to allow for a developing world to advance into space travel and ultimately interstellar travel the long way?
I do see your actual point (page 20). Imperial Navy, Subsector Navy, and Planetary Navy have been different components of the same "Navy" to me. However, I can see where we could view a planetary navy from each independent world and they would want to build ships on their own planet with their own resources (or try to buy from somewhere in their subsector). To allow this, we either throw out the universal A and/or B Starport argument for ship construction (and ship maintenance and repair) found everywhere else or restrict that portion of TC:HG to a limited scope such as explorers and experimental system defense boats or the like. Otherwise, I suspect every canonical tech level 8 system defense squadron will have mesons and black globes from their "local" military contractors. :rofl:
This is where the distinction between starports and spaceports makes sense to me - a defined capability for each type and class. Not canonical material I know.
On a side note: While researching my library I re-discovered that CT defaults to the use of refined fuel and MT defaults to unrefined fuel use. Nothing controversial here just some fun Traveller trivia.
The Solomani Confederation reminds me a little of the 19th Century US:
Political participation is basically limited to members of the dominant majority race.
There's an open frontier ---Go Rimward, young man!
The Solomani Cause carries a whiff of Manifest Destiny about it.
Sectionalism/competing sub-polities within a federal structure.
Of course, a lot of these things could be compared to aspects of any of several other historical states. That's good. I wouldn't want it all too close.
The one party state obviously looks rather Soviet, with the triumvirate of Party/military/SolSec and the way Monitors seem to work.
Other comparisons could be made.
I don't get a 'Space Nazi' vibe. That's good for me.
Would I run a Solomani-oriented campaign? Heck yeah!
The frontier to Rimward is a big plus.
The secret conferences during character generation are a nice touch, as is replacing Social Standing with Party Standing.
The Party and SolSec Careers are nifty.
I don't have the DGP Aslan/Solomani book or other sources, beyond wikia articles, so anything I developed for an in-house SC version might end up rather different from later canon materials.
Political participation is basically limited to members of the dominant majority race.
There's an open frontier ---Go Rimward, young man!
The Solomani Cause carries a whiff of Manifest Destiny about it.
Sectionalism/competing sub-polities within a federal structure.
Of course, a lot of these things could be compared to aspects of any of several other historical states. That's good. I wouldn't want it all too close.
The one party state obviously looks rather Soviet, with the triumvirate of Party/military/SolSec and the way Monitors seem to work.
Other comparisons could be made.
I don't get a 'Space Nazi' vibe. That's good for me.
Would I run a Solomani-oriented campaign? Heck yeah!
The frontier to Rimward is a big plus.
The secret conferences during character generation are a nice touch, as is replacing Social Standing with Party Standing.
The Party and SolSec Careers are nifty.
I don't have the DGP Aslan/Solomani book or other sources, beyond wikia articles, so anything I developed for an in-house SC version might end up rather different from later canon materials.
It is clear and true that the History of the 3I is inspired by real history.
It is important to not conflate it as just real history pastiched over the setting; it isn't.
It's a whole cloth invention inspired by mixing and matching multiple historical situations and trends; Marc has made mention of the historical inspirations as just that: inspirations.
Further, as is shown in later games, most especially 2300, GDW doesn't just change the names on prior histories. They examine the situations, discuss them, pass them back and forth, come to consensus, and sometimes pick the less likely resolution as better story. Frank Chadwick has mentioned this in re both T2K and Space 1889 in the past. Dave N., likewise, mentioned this. Joe and Gary also have mentioned this; for them, the discussion of the storyline for MegaTraveller was clearly a group decision, not any one person's, but definitely subject to Marc's final sign-off. Marc has, for his part, repeatedly said of TNE, "The final decision was mine." From whence we get Virus.
Reducing it to the level of "Borrowed History" is a gross oversimplification. And quite unfair to the creative minds who formed GDW.
It is important to not conflate it as just real history pastiched over the setting; it isn't.
It's a whole cloth invention inspired by mixing and matching multiple historical situations and trends; Marc has made mention of the historical inspirations as just that: inspirations.
Further, as is shown in later games, most especially 2300, GDW doesn't just change the names on prior histories. They examine the situations, discuss them, pass them back and forth, come to consensus, and sometimes pick the less likely resolution as better story. Frank Chadwick has mentioned this in re both T2K and Space 1889 in the past. Dave N., likewise, mentioned this. Joe and Gary also have mentioned this; for them, the discussion of the storyline for MegaTraveller was clearly a group decision, not any one person's, but definitely subject to Marc's final sign-off. Marc has, for his part, repeatedly said of TNE, "The final decision was mine." From whence we get Virus.
Reducing it to the level of "Borrowed History" is a gross oversimplification. And quite unfair to the creative minds who formed GDW.
