Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
See the Roman Emperor Diocletian.
The Solomani, not just bad guys anymore
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
See the Roman Emperor Diocletian.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I don't think he quite thought that through.
The author of crimes and devisor of evil in the latter days? Who decreed every man must follow the profession of his father? Who increased the burden of taxation on the citizens of Rome?
I can't see the comparison with George Washington the boy who could tell no lie? (unless it's the slavery issue?)
Kind Regards
David
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
You asked the following question.
Diocletian voluntarily gave up the position of Emperor in 305 AD, the only Roman Emperor to do so. I did not say that he was a nice guy.
Another one that voluntarily gave up a position of power was Charles the 5th of Spain, the Holy Roman Emperor. He relinquished the throne of Spain to his son Philip, and the position of Holy Roman Emperor to his brother Ferdinand the 1st, all of that in 1556, three years before he died.
Then there is the odd case of William Rufus, son of William the Conqueror of England.
How is being killed by an arrow through the lung in a hunting "accident" the same as giving up power voluntarily?
Anyway, you've all forgotten the example civic virtue Washington and the other Founding Fathers knew about and venerated: Cincinnatus.
Diocletian was dying at the end of his reign he certainly did not give up power earlier when he had my putative welsh ancestor M A M V Carausius assassinated rather than devolve power to Britain. There were also a number of external threats.
Abdicating in favour of a family member is ensuring the survival of your dynasty not giving up power voluntarily, I don't know whether he was facing external threats at the time, but that would be before the final expulsion of the muslims from Spain. He may also have been aiming to be made a Saint.
As far as in know William R was allegedly assassinated by his brother Henry
Kind Regards
David
Apologies should have checked before I posted, but I was thinking of the wrong century Charles V had immense problems, not least the beginnings of too much inbreeding. Externally, there was the Protestantism, France , Ottomans threatening Vienna and towards the end of the period French and British interference with his American possessions, don't think he had many peaceful nights sleep.
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Now that is a good example, which makes 2 in a 2,500 year period, (there may be some Greek examples as well), but I was trying to make the point that power corrupts and most (99.99% or so) humans would not voluntarily. This is why 'evil' empires arise and in the absence of internal and external threats continue.
In game terms I don't see the 3I giving up a huge chunk of it's border to create a buffer state, I think the Confederation of Arden was almost entirely composed of worlds outside the 5FFW boundary.
Kind Regards
David
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The Romans had rather severe term limits, you can only be Consul once every ten years, and then only for a year, barring emergencies.
You here, of course, incorrectly imply by consent to use and/or make reference to the Confederation of Arden that it exists or is even considered to exist as an independent "state" or "territory." We, in the Imperium, don't refer to it at all. We use the more "educated" term of the Zhodani Consulate (and known Enemy of the State), Foreven Sector (an area reserved for personal campaign stories and outside the scope of OTU in every known licensed version), or the Spinward Marches.
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You here, of course, incorrectly imply by consent to use and/or make reference to the Confederation of Arden that it exists or is even considered to exist as an independent "state" or "territory." We, in the Imperium, don't refer to it at all. We use the more "educated" term of the Zhodani Consulate (and known Enemy of the State), Foreven Sector (an area reserved for personal campaign stories and outside the scope of OTU in every known licensed version), or the Spinward Marches.
If I understood you well. I'm afraid you confuse the Zhodani Consulate with the Arden Confederation, that is an independent small political entity in the demilitarized zone between the 3I, the Zhodani Consulate and the SW.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yup, the Federation of Arden was established post FFW and immediately recognised by the 3I, in much the same way the the Border Worlds split from the Sword Worlds and were also immediately recognised as a state by the 3I.
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Ohh... the Federation of Arden... that's what he was talking about!
Originally Imperial, Arden "gained" it's independence as a result of the 3rd FW when the losing Imperium was evicted and/or withdrew from the region.
By the start of the 5th FW Arden was officially neutral, vaguely pro-Zho, and had recently expanded to control Utoland and Zircon.
Towards the end of the 5th FW, Arden had declared for the Imperium and, perhaps as a result of that switch, Arden's "empire" expanded after the war to also include Zenopit, Pequan, Tremous Dex, and Quare.
What can I say? Arden's one of those odd nooks in the OTU that attracted me like a moth to a flame.
Originally Imperial, Arden "gained" it's independence as a result of the 3rd FW when the losing Imperium was evicted and/or withdrew from the region.
By the start of the 5th FW Arden was officially neutral, vaguely pro-Zho, and had recently expanded to control Utoland and Zircon.
Towards the end of the 5th FW, Arden had declared for the Imperium and, perhaps as a result of that switch, Arden's "empire" expanded after the war to also include Zenopit, Pequan, Tremous Dex, and Quare.
What can I say? Arden's one of those odd nooks in the OTU that attracted me like a moth to a flame.
I believe the 3I "tolerates" the Federation of Arden, as you call it, but is not recognized by the 3I in a legal sense.
Arden is a TL9 world claiming sovereignty over a few systems on the fringe of the Imperial Borders. It possesses no method to replace lost or destroyed starships (their Class B Starport is unable to build starships) except through import. This region of space loses political significants as relations between the Imperium and Zhodani normalize post-FFW. In the meantime, the 3I supplies these necessary starship imports as a control mechanism for this "area of space."
How do you come to that conclusion?
Three worlds before the war and seven after. Rather odd that the winning Imperium allowed an government it doesn't recognize in a "legal" sense to expand, don't you think?
Wrong. While TL 9 is a barrier, that starport rating refers to the public facilities. We know nothing about the government facilities there.
Wrong again for a few reasons. First, Tremous Dex - one those systems the Imperium somehow lets a government it doesn't recognize own - is TL C, corporate state, with a population in the tens of thousands. They're earning their pay doing something.
Second, the Imperium isn't the only game in town. The Zho border is as close as the Imperial one with Ninjar's yards as close as Frenzie's. The Swordies, Borders, and Darrians are just a subsector away to rimward as are the 40th Squadron and Anti-Rukh Coalition coreward. If Arden is buying, there are plenty of people selling.
Before FFW, my take is that Arden was able to expand by profiting its position in the Demilitarized Zone amont the Zhodani Consulate and 3I. Neither of them could intervine without raising the other suspictions (at least)
CT:HG, page 20:
So, Arden may construct or replace ships, though its low TL will limit their capacity (at least until they absorbed Tremous Dex, after FFW).
The region keeps being a demilitarized zone, and its importance is not diminished (as has not in any inter-frontier wars period, despite how long it can be and how normalized elations among Consulate ans 3I are).
Again my take, is that Arden profited the after war period to expland, but also it was allowed to expland, mostly by the 3I, to neutralize both Quare and (more important) Tremous Dex as pirate bases.
Both are B class starports with low population. Specially Tremous Dex, with its (relative) high TL and low law level is quite likely to be one of the major piracy centers in the whole Marches. Few (if any) worlds are better to repair your ship or conduct maintenance, or to clear your "adquired" goods if you are in piracy trade, and its position in the Demilitarized Zone protects it against Imperial action if they don't want to enrage the Zhodani.
So, again as I see the history of the SM (so it can be considered, at least partially, as IMTU, albeit one very close to OTU), 3I not only allowed, but encouraged (and probably covertly helped) Arden Federation (then in good terms with 3I after having sized for them in FFW) to take both planets. Zenopit and Pequan mostly were absorbed to keep the comunication lines of the (mostly J1) Arden Navy.
In this scenario, the Zhodani did not opose it because its recent defeat (but see that Arden did not expand towards them).
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Or we can refer to Behind the Claw and see that military production "is limited to a few minor military vessels - mainly patrol and escort frigates." emphasis added.
We can also keep in mind your timeline for Arden to overcome the TL12 Tremous Dex while still TL9 it may not happen until 1120 (or granted as early as 1117 depending on which data you cite).
Of course, if we push the timeline out far enough, we can collapse the Imperium too.
You need to learn more about Behind the Claw.
Not "my" timeline, the canonical timeline. The information I posted is straight from The Spinward Marches Campaign.
Arden alone has a population numbered in the billions and Zircon in the millions while Tremous Dex is populated by a few tens of thousands.
As for the conquest taking until 1120, Arden owns Tremous Dex in 1116 which is the start date for MegaTraveller.
Canon is clear on these points. What you do in YTU is your business.
