Traveller Ringworld

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Is Mars Creepy? Remember the movie Alien, the heroes explore a wrecked starship, if there were no alien larvae onboard how long can the GM get by on creepiness alone? Now typically a planet is only as interesting as whats on it. An incomplete ringworld would naturally have less on it that a complete one, your encounter rate would be diminished since there would be less things crawling on its surface. [/QB]

Sure, you can't keep up the 'creepiness' as a GM forever. But the point is that the PCs/actors/whatever don't know whether there's anything out there or not.

Say for argument's sake that someone finds ruins on Mars. It goes from being a dead world where there was never life to a world where there was once life at some point, but now it's gone. The jump from 'dead rockball' to 'ghost world' is pretty major. You now know you're walking in someone else's footsteps. You're imagining what it was like when the place was alive. You're wondering if there's anything left of its former inhabitants... and why they're not there anymore.

Granted, if you're totally unfazeable (or have a skin as thick as a rhino ) then this won't affect you, and all that matters is that the planet is currently dead. But if you have any curiosity or imagination then there are bound to be thoughts that make the hair stand up on the back of your neck every now and then.

And an incomplete ringworld has less interesting stuff on it than a complete one, sure. But that zillions of earths worth of surface area - 'less' might still be 'a huge amount' in practise.

 

[TKalbfus]

It kind of depends on "how" the Ringworld is incomplete. One way it might be incomplete would be not to have any advanced multicellular life on it with nothing but algae in its oceans. The air is breathable. (Any civilization with the brute force to convert gas giant material into a solid ringworld would probably separate the gases into breathable nitrogen and oxygen first and then seed the ringworld with life. As for being dark and creepy, an unfinished ringworld would most likely not have any shadow squares yet to facilitate the growth of algea, there would be a constant noon-time tropical sun shining down perpendicularly on the ringworld's floor. There should be lots of dirt on the ringworld floor and plenty of sterile ocean, but no trees, no animals. The robots might have long ceased functioning being nothing more than rusting hulks. Robots are assumed not to self-repair unless their programming specifically calls for it. The only reason the robots would be self repairing would be if the Ancients planned for the automated construction of the ringworld in their absense, and since the Ancients are absent, the construction of the ringworld would continue in their absense by the automated self-reparing robots. The runtish, small ringworld in the OTU is kind of like D&D characters encountering a small dragon when their are big ones lurking about. Now if you were going to use only 1 dragon would you have them encounter a small dragon or a big one? Likewise, if your going to have a ringworld in your campaign, wouldn't you want to go the whole 9 yards and present a full-size complete ringworld, rather than an incomplete mini-ringworld orbiting a red dwarf star that, by the way tends to flare quite dramatically doubling and sometimes tripling its brilliance. I think if presented with an incomplete ringworld, the Imperium would be out there finishing it, most of the major work would be structural and done already, all that remains is to seed it with life, that the Imperium can do.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I think if presented with an incomplete ringworld, the Imperium would be out there finishing it, most of the major work would be structural and done already, all that remains is to seed it with life, that the Imperium can do.

Who says no one has tried? What keeps hampering the projects? Why no one hears from the startup teams after they arrive?

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
Who says no one has tried? What keeps hampering the projects? Why no one hears from the startup teams after they arrive?

The Outcasts of the Whispering Sky blockade, for one.

Tom keeps taking the "concept" of a ringworld out of the OTU context. This ringworld ain't easy to get to and once you're there (if I'm GM-ing), it ain't gonna be easy to get back. This is an "unfinished" Ancient artifact located at least j-7 from the nearest Imperial world, inside hostile territory held by extreme xenophobes. There is no accurate IISS survey data available and no one has attempted to address how an object of that mass would muck up the "100D" concept, or what a hazard to navigation it would pose for anyone not thoroughly familiar with the system.

As written, a jaunt to this ringworld is going to be plenty exciting, even if it is "unfinished".

Better pack a lunch. And bring nukes--you're probably going to need them.

 

[TKalbfus]

The Outcasts of the Whispering Sky blockade, for one.

Tom keeps taking the "concept" of a ringworld out of the OTU context. This ringworld ain't easy to get to and once you're there (if I'm GM-ing), it ain't gonna be easy to get back. This is an "unfinished" Ancient artifact located at least j-7 from the nearest Imperial world, inside hostile territory held by extreme xenophobes. There is no accurate IISS survey data available and no one has attempted to address how an object of that mass would muck up the "100D" concept, or what a hazard to navigation it would pose for anyone not thoroughly familiar with the system.

As written, a jaunt to this ringworld is going to be plenty exciting, even if it is "unfinished".

Better pack a lunch. And bring nukes--you're probably going to need them.

I'm sure the Imperium can figure out away to get to this ringworld. As for the xenophobic aliens, the Imperium could always practice a little Imperialism. The Imperium could at least double their land territory of 11,000 world just by aquiring this little gem, well worth the military effort, I think from an Imperialist point of view. One way to get past the jump-7 is by establishing resupply bases along the way. As they say, Imperiums either expand or contract.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

So what exactly would the Imperium do with umpteen thousand worlds worth of surface area all around one star anyway? Doesn't sound much like an 'expansion', if they fully embraced the idea of colonising the ringworld then they probably would never expand their borders again - at least not for 'living space'. Though they'd probably have to import just about every kind of raw material to the ringworld from elsewhere, I doubt if it would have sufficient mineral resources on its own.

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I'm sure the Imperium can figure out away to get to this ringworld....

... As they say, Imperiums either expand or contract.

Look at a map, Tom. Leenitakot is a subsector and a half from the furthest-most IN base. You would have to mount an expeditionary force which can traverse 20 parsecs (I was wrong about J-7), take and hold a strange system for which little accurate survey data or intelligence exists, do this in the face of determined opposition and manage to to avoid setting off another Rim War or causing an anti-imperial alliance to coalesce in the subsector.

It's not as if Strephon is going to say "bring me a budget and I'll sign it."

Then again, he might. It's YTU, after all.

 

[jrients]

What would be the economic advantage to settling the ringworld? Living space does not seem to me to be at a premium in the Imperium. With cheap fuzion, harvesting solar energy doesn't seem like a productive idea. The ring itself could be "mined" for materials: break off a chunk and haul it down to the recyclers along with your pop cans. Otherwise, ancient artifacts would be about the only exploitable resource I can think of. Perhaps you could support a science colony and/or a mining (i.e. salvage) operation. Surely there are other worlds in Imperial space that might be staggeringly smaller, but more easily exploited.

I suppose a metric buttload of artifacts might be enough to mount a serious expedition, assuming the artifacts were as useful as black globe generators. Of course, Strephon would need proof positive that the artifacts in question merited the possibility of touching off another Rim War. Perhaps some nice PCs somewhere could bring back a couple of working samples and evidence that hundreds more like it are ready to had.

 

[mad13142000]

Besides which, the existance of the ringworld is probably just a weird RUMOR in the Imperium. Only a few nerdy college profs. would be itching to go there...
And maybe a fortune hunter or two...who probably disappeared, and added to the rumor mill..

-MADDog

 

[ninthcouncil]

There is no reason for the Third Imperium to be interested in the Leenitakot ringworld as a colonisation project - there's plenty of habitable space, much more conveniently located and better resourced, spread all over the interior of the Imperium as it is. Of course the Imperium is interested in Leenitakot, along with everybody else, but that's not their motive. What makes the Leenitakot Ringworld important is not what it is so much as what it MIGHT be. It is by a very long way the largest Ancient artifact in the known universe, yet it is clearly unfinished. Why did they build it? Why did they stop? If it was interrupted by the hypothetical Final War, why wasn't it destroyed, like so many planetary systems? Does it still hold the potential to be completed? Can that potential be triggered?

In the absence of much genuine fact about Leenitakot, most people's "knowledge" of the ringworld will consist of rumour, speculation and outright fabrication - even among respectable university professors, generating any number of equally spurious contending theories. In the canon, the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky have grudgingly allowed access to the ringworld on a handful of occasions. The last time this happened was IMTU nearly a century ago, and since the Stalkers changed their minds and completely blockaded it, the various factions (insert your favourite conspiracy here) have been attempting to get surreptitious access to the system, each of them trying to find the "key" to unlock its mysteries. And what would happen if one of them succeeded?

The very existence of the Leenitakot ringworld generates lots of interesting ideas, whether or not it is inhabited. Getting there, given its situation, is an adventure in itself. And, given that it's in the nature of the RPG for PCs to be around when drama happens, even if the ringworld APPEARS to be dead, who is to say that the arrival of the players doesn't trigger or reveal some seismic change.

Inhabiting Leenitakot collapses down the uncertainties, and makes the place like just another planet, only bigger. As it is, uninhabited, mysterious and unattainable, it's a threshold.

[Originally, when I started my current campaign, the Leenitakot ringworld was going to have an important part to play in the plot. However, the players are generating quite enough entertainment for themselves following up what I'd intended to be a minor diversion. Damn you, psionic fungus! ]

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by ninthcouncil:
The very existence of the Leenitakot ringworld generates lots of interesting ideas, whether or not it is inhabited. Getting there, given its situation, is an adventure in itself.

Thank you. I was trying to make this exact point.

And, given that it's in the nature of the RPG for PCs to be around when drama happens, even if the ringworld APPEARS to be dead, who is to say that the arrival of the players doesn't trigger or reveal some seismic change.

I would argue that the Ringworld must have some functioning systems: at the very least station keeping and meteor defense. As Niven found out, "The Ringworld is unstable!": it's not actually in orbit around its primary since it spins at greater than orbital velocity. So something is keeping this massive "unfinished" artifact around [cue rising organ music...]

Damn you, psionic fungus!

As a complete aside: this is classic .sig file material. Do you mind?

 

[ninthcouncil]

Originally posted by roygbiv:
As a complete aside: this is classic .sig file material. Do you mind? [/QB]

Not at all!

 

[TKalbfus]

I can think of one economic advantage of colonizing the Ringworld.
1) It can house the entire population of the Imperium with plenty of room to spare. One of the difficulties of the Imperium is that it is so spread out that communication and travel take up to two years between its furthest parts. Within the ringworld all communication is nearly instantaneous, it can house a huge population eventually and facilitate real time communication of ideas and technologies, it can possess an economic output that would dwarf the Imperium proper assumming a nearby supply of raw materials. that is its potential, but first it needs to be finished. The hard part, the ringworld structure is already done. What the Imperium would need to build is the Shadow squares to give the ringworld a 24 standard hour day/night cycle. I'm not sure what sort of atmosphere it already has, but if its not breathable, it needs to be made so. Finally its soil needs to be seeded with Earth life. The Imperium could probably do these things. The shadow squares are easy, they are thin membranes that merely orbit the star. Biological organisms can convert the atmosphere and spread across its surface, it merely takes time, but they will eventually fill the available space.

 

[Anthony]

While a Ringworld could house a lot of people, there's no evidence Traveller people care. Any asteroid belt (type 0 mainworld) can credibly support trillions of people; given that there aren't pop-B and pop-C worlds out there, population is probably kept under control by some other factor.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Anthony:
While a Ringworld could house a lot of people, there's no evidence Traveller people care. Any asteroid belt (type 0 mainworld) can credibly support trillions of people; given that there aren't pop-B and pop-C worlds out there, population is probably kept under control by some other factor.

Well, that's only because you had to roll 2d-2 on the population roll... which is the same reason why there aren't any 11,000 or 12,000 mile diameter terrestrial worlds out there .

 

[TKalbfus]

While a Ringworld could house a lot of people, there's no evidence Traveller people care. Any asteroid belt (type 0 mainworld) can credibly support trillions of people; given that there aren't pop-B and pop-C worlds out there, population is probably kept under control by some other factor.

The advantage of the ringworld when its complete and inhabited is that it would be civilized and under the control of a central government that enforces law and order with its police. The population would be huge, but through electronic media democracy in real time would be possible instead of the feudalism most Imperial citizens have to settle for. There won't be a wide assortment of different governments, some democratic and some not. Local governments will be of the same type as the general Ringworld government. A ringworld could be made the capital of a future Imperium. The "Emperor" could be democratically elected by the inhabitants of the ringworld and as the population of the ringworld grew, the Imperium could let go of its outlying provences since their population could not be great enough for them to be a threat to the Ringworld. The Ringworld would still control the space around itself up to several parsecs. Perhaps the Emperor might realize that someday the Imperium might have a "Nero" or a "Caligula" who will bring the imperium's downfall. A Ringworld could make a bright shinning beacon of democracy and civilization when all else is dark. Such might be the motivation for the Imperium to aquire the Ringworld. The fun for PCs however is in the journey, not in the destination. Someday the ringworld may be a bright shining light of civiliazation, but they have to make that happen.
The story is much the same as the colonization of any other world except that this one is much bigger. Even when the Imperium conquers it, their will be much about the ringworld that they don't know. Things might get in the way of the Imperium's plans to terraform it, things that the PCs might have to deal with.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
The advantage of the ringworld when its complete and inhabited is that it would be civilized and under the control of a central government that enforces law and order with its police. The population would be huge, but through electronic media democracy in real time would be possible instead of the feudalism most Imperial citizens have to settle for. There won't be a wide assortment of different governments, some democratic and some not. Local governments will be of the same type as the general Ringworld government. A ringworld could be made the capital of a future Imperium. The "Emperor" could be democratically elected by the inhabitants of the ringworld and as the population of the ringworld grew, the Imperium could let go of its outlying provences since their population could not be great enough for them to be a threat to the Ringworld. The Ringworld would still control the space around itself up to several parsecs. Perhaps the Emperor might realize that someday the Imperium might have a "Nero" or a "Caligula" who will bring the imperium's downfall. A Ringworld could make a bright shinning beacon of democracy and civilization when all else is dark. Such might be the motivation for the Imperium to aquire the Ringworld. The fun for PCs however is in the journey, not in the destination. Someday the ringworld may be a bright shining light of civiliazation, but they have to make that happen.
The story is much the same as the colonization of any other world except that this one is much bigger. Even when the Imperium conquers it, their will be much about the ringworld that they don't know. Things might get in the way of the Imperium's plans to terraform it, things that the PCs might have to deal with. [/QB]

I can't see any way that you can have a centralised government here that takes a hands-on involvement on a body of this scale. You could have many different groups settling the ringworld starting from different, widely spaced points on the ring, and they'd probably take years (if not decades) to expand to the point where they encounter eachothers' borders. Add to that natural land and sea barriers where you can have people settling island continents too, separated by huge tracts of oceans perhaps hundreds of thousands of miles wide.

AFAICT it's either going to have a hierarchical, district-based government, or it's going to be totally balkanised. I can't see any reason why any local governments would have to conform to any 'global' norm, and there's certainly no reason that democracies would be dominant at all.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Tom, what is the mystical significance of the Ringworld that it necessarily generates democracy? Surely, if this "instant electronic democracy" were so foolproof, we'd see it operating on the majority of hi-tech hi-pop worlds throughout the Imperium? But it doesn't. Furthermore, though you talk a lot about democracy here, your vision in fact has nothing to do with democracy - all the "advantages" you mention are related to administrative convenience rather than to the freedom and well being of the citizen, and in fact its a fundamentally totalitarian idea that everyone should be in one place because it makes them easier to rule. I'm not clear whether you were actually advocating a mass migration to Leenitakot - if so, I'll refer you to my old mate Josef Stalin for some advice on implementation.....

I certainly don't understand why the Imperium should be interested in conquering a substantial area of space just to obtain this huge receptacle for population. The Imperium has anyhow shown little interest in expansion for a long time now. And why should they have any interest in creating a new Capital, of all things, on the far edges of their territory? Far from protecting against a Caligula or Nero, it seems the attempt to stage such a hare-brained scheme could turn an Emperor into one. It's also worth remembering that by expanding in this direction you are threatening the Hivers, and they have a few tricks up their many sleeves......

How the Ringworld could interact with its neighbours depends on whether it is resourced or not. If the makers have kindly stocked it with abundant natural resources which may be easily extracted by the inhabitants, it would I think tend to become insular in attitude, dismissive of external affairs, and tending through naivety and arrogance towards heavy-handedness when it does involve itself. After all, why worry unduly about the rest of the universe when you have an unimaginably vast wilderness of your own to explore and exploit? If it is not resource rich, then as its population rises the Ringworld becomes resource hungry to an extent which would dominate the economy of the entire sector, even beyond. In neither case can I see the Ringworld maintaining an equitable realtionship with its neighbours. It could in fact become a deeply repressive influence - and even if its politics are democratic and its intentions are honourable, it could still easily be perceived as such by other nations. You don't have to look to far to see parallels to that situation.

As far as the Imperium is concerned, having such a massive population as a single entity within its borders would be, I think, very worrying rather than advantageous. If you're familar with the TNE material, you might want to consider the Reform Coalition's attitude to the high-population world of Yontez; keep it divided, and don't try to assimilate it, because doing so would destabilise the internal politics of the RC. The high population worlds of the Imperium are kept in balance by the presence of other such worlds; but the Ringworld would have no such rivals, and its disproportionate influence would change the very nature of the Third Imperium.

 

[alanb]

My take on Leenitakot has always been that the "Ringworld" was essentially just a bunch of stuff floating around in a single orbit, more or less like a planetoid belt. That is, it was still just a collection of pieces and raw materials, rather than an actual ring.

This means that it can still be explored, but nobody actually lives there. The world represented in the UWP is another world, where people actually live.

As far as a Ringworld democracy goes: the scale would be a serious problem. Apart from anything else, whole civilisations could slip through the cracks!

Worse, if we want to look at it from the viewpoint of Imperial colonization, why would the Imperial nobles, megacorporations, bureaucrats and all that set up a democracy? An oligarchy seems more their style.

Alan

 

[robject]

The Security Link article (Islands in Jumpspace) is here:

http://www.securityleak.com/slm/issue_02/islands_in_jumpspace.html