Did you read what I wrote? The point is not that you can't create a massive population on a ringworld, the point is that it's perfectly possible, and well within Traveller capabilities, to create a massive population in a system without a ringworld; given that they have not done so elsewhere, why would a ringworld be any different?
Traveller Ringworld
- Thread starter TKalbfus
- Start date
A ringworld could be made habitable for a huge area, while an asteroid belt requires special equipment to settle each asteroid. Basically you need small individual life support systems to handle each given number of people at each asteroids and as the population expands you need to build more.
The tight location of a ringworld and its massive inhabitability makes democracy possible, not inevitable for the entire ringworld. Democracy is not possible for the entire Imperium as a whole as it can barely have a Government because communication is too slow. Democracy requires 2-way communication of a frequent basis. Citizens need to be kept informed of current events on a near real time basis, so they can make informed decisions in evaluating thei politicians they elect. Once you get past 1 billion it really doesn't matter whether its 1 billion, 10 billion, or 100 quadrillion, it is just alot of people and you'll need a representative democracy sprinkeled with plebicites to determine the passage of laws. The government is fairly tight and effective or can be given the fast communication that's not available imperium wide.
The Emperor of the Imperium really can't make military decisions from the throne in which he sits, he can allocate resources for wars that have been going on for a very long time in anticipation of future needs. He can determine laws and policies imperium wide, but that is about it, he has to trust his leutenants alot.
The tight location of a ringworld and its massive inhabitability makes democracy possible, not inevitable for the entire ringworld. Democracy is not possible for the entire Imperium as a whole as it can barely have a Government because communication is too slow. Democracy requires 2-way communication of a frequent basis. Citizens need to be kept informed of current events on a near real time basis, so they can make informed decisions in evaluating thei politicians they elect. Once you get past 1 billion it really doesn't matter whether its 1 billion, 10 billion, or 100 quadrillion, it is just alot of people and you'll need a representative democracy sprinkeled with plebicites to determine the passage of laws. The government is fairly tight and effective or can be given the fast communication that's not available imperium wide.
The Emperor of the Imperium really can't make military decisions from the throne in which he sits, he can allocate resources for wars that have been going on for a very long time in anticipation of future needs. He can determine laws and policies imperium wide, but that is about it, he has to trust his leutenants alot.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Yes, but any democracies would have to be local scale. Otherwise you end up having the Parliament (or whatever) over in Ring Sector A, several million km to the east, deciding what's best for the people living in Ring Sector ZZZ. It's still too big to be fully centralised.
mad13142000
SOC-13
Let's see...The world in question is in Hinterworlds Sector at 1426. This places it in the Bruia Subsector...hmmm...
Not exactly a great place for expansion. This is 30 Parsecs from the closest Imperial world. It lies behind a client state - The Ral Ranta. It lies within the domain of the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky. It also lies behind a series of Solomani Outpost worlds, the closest of which is only 5 parsecs away. To even get to it would require J3 vessels.
I don't see the Imperium starting a second Solomani war in addition to other entanglements only to annex an UNFINISHED ringworld so far from Imperial borders ON A RUMOR...
The democracy thing just wouldn't happen...
-MADDog
Not exactly a great place for expansion. This is 30 Parsecs from the closest Imperial world. It lies behind a client state - The Ral Ranta. It lies within the domain of the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky. It also lies behind a series of Solomani Outpost worlds, the closest of which is only 5 parsecs away. To even get to it would require J3 vessels.
I don't see the Imperium starting a second Solomani war in addition to other entanglements only to annex an UNFINISHED ringworld so far from Imperial borders ON A RUMOR...
The democracy thing just wouldn't happen...
-MADDog
I don't think it would be a rumour. The Scouts will have been in the system, whether overtly or covertly. It's not clear exactly how far out from the Imperial borders the Scouts have been, but they've certainly been as far as the Hive Federation, well beyond the Hinterworlds.
The point about the ringworld being unfinished is critical. This could mean anything from being "almost finished" to still being a collection of separate chunks of "stuff".
I treat it as the latter, precisely to avoid this whole problem.
And no, there will be no ringworld democracy. In fact, I doubt that there could be any ringworld government at all. Sure, there would be an administration running the infrastructure of the ring, but they would be unable to govern the vast spaces where people live.
Way back in the '80s, Chaosium put out a Ringworld RPG. Apparently a lot of people bought it, read it, but never played it. People like me.
It was kind of cool. I wasn't perfectly thrilled by the system, which was a rather overcomplicated variant of the standard Chaosium system. Because it was focussed on the Ringworld, rather than Niven's Known Space in general, it lacked a few things like Space Combat rules, which was a shame. Still, it had lots of "good stuff" and details on Niven's universe.
One thing was very clear. Ringworlds are big. Really big. Really really big. Really, really.... You get the idea. They also require some very serious magi-tech to work.
There can't be a ringworld government that actually governs much. In addition, the Imperium simply couldn't complete an incomplete ringworld. They just don't have the technology.
Alan
An explanation presents itself for why the ringworld is unfinished, from the creator of the original. Mr. Niven has pointed out that the rough-order-of-magnitude (ROM) tensile strength of Scrith (the material from which Ringworlds are made, of course) is that of an atomic nucleus. The ringworld in Traveller can't be made habitable because Grandfather never quite got all of the bugs worked out of his gizmo for strengthening materials...
Anybody who DOESN'T see a reason for the Gniivi to keep people from visiting (at least until AFTER they figure out how to make it work) should simply give up on Traveller right now.
Any pc who acquires this information and doesn't even consider haring off after the greatest secret since the Acme Pocket Universe Creator(tm) should seriously consider retirement...
Anybody who DOESN'T see a reason for the Gniivi to keep people from visiting (at least until AFTER they figure out how to make it work) should simply give up on Traveller right now.
Any pc who acquires this information and doesn't even consider haring off after the greatest secret since the Acme Pocket Universe Creator(tm) should seriously consider retirement...
mad13142000
SOC-13
They are NOT the same...
Gniivi:
Homeworld: Pru-Mavin (2924 Hinterworlds)
A nonhuman, minor alien race spanning the Hinterworlds-Leonidae border, the Gniivi use their jump-2 capable ships to maintain their 23-world state. Though engaging in trade with nearby client states--the Imperium, the Solomani, the Two Thousand Worlds, and the Hive Federation--the Gniivi are fiercely protective of their independence. [Challenge 39]
Outcasts of the Whispering Sky:
Outcasts of the Whispering Sky also known as the Stalkers
Homeworld: 214-389 (1328 Hinterworlds)
Small interstellar state in the Hinterworlds with 6 systems in Bruia subsector, 2 systems in Kandra subsector, and 4 systems in Silver Laurel subsector. One system is Leenitakot (1432), the ringworld of ancients legend. The aliens that inhabit this realm are among the strangest known to starfaring races. These aliens call themselves the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky, and are commonly known as Stalkers.
The Stalkers are not warm to intrusions into their realm, to the frustration of xeonarcheologists wishing to study the unfinished ringworld. Only four expeditions to the ringworld have been granted to Imperial or Solomani (c.1120) science expeditions. Stalkers punish intruders with their lives, though many free-traders still risk the journey for unique spices and plant life, available nowehere else.
[Challenge 39 & 52(?)]
I also have heard that after TNE, the Outcasts were overthrown, and that the Droyne take over the ringworld as a kind of shrine...But I don't play TNE...
-MADDog
Gniivi:
Homeworld: Pru-Mavin (2924 Hinterworlds)
A nonhuman, minor alien race spanning the Hinterworlds-Leonidae border, the Gniivi use their jump-2 capable ships to maintain their 23-world state. Though engaging in trade with nearby client states--the Imperium, the Solomani, the Two Thousand Worlds, and the Hive Federation--the Gniivi are fiercely protective of their independence. [Challenge 39]
Outcasts of the Whispering Sky:
Outcasts of the Whispering Sky also known as the Stalkers
Homeworld: 214-389 (1328 Hinterworlds)
Small interstellar state in the Hinterworlds with 6 systems in Bruia subsector, 2 systems in Kandra subsector, and 4 systems in Silver Laurel subsector. One system is Leenitakot (1432), the ringworld of ancients legend. The aliens that inhabit this realm are among the strangest known to starfaring races. These aliens call themselves the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky, and are commonly known as Stalkers.
The Stalkers are not warm to intrusions into their realm, to the frustration of xeonarcheologists wishing to study the unfinished ringworld. Only four expeditions to the ringworld have been granted to Imperial or Solomani (c.1120) science expeditions. Stalkers punish intruders with their lives, though many free-traders still risk the journey for unique spices and plant life, available nowehere else.
[Challenge 39 & 52(?)]
I also have heard that after TNE, the Outcasts were overthrown, and that the Droyne take over the ringworld as a kind of shrine...But I don't play TNE...
-MADDog
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
So, what's actually strange about them? Are they physically weird or something?
ninthcouncil
SOC-11
The Outcasts are amphibian descendants with the braincase situated in the body, and a small head with a single eye on an extensible neck (hence the nickname "Stalkers"). They are quadrupedal, but can assume a bipedal position, modifying their forward hands for the differing requirements of each position by means of flexible tissues in the forelimb.
They communicate by means of light patterns produced by bioluminescence organs in their eye. This has the side-effect of making it appear that the night sky, with its twinkling stars, is effectively murmuring in the background. Hence the "whispering sky" - they are "outcasts" from its constant but incomprehensible conversation. This race has a rather paranoid mindset and are very xenophobic.
I wouldn't rate them a 10 on the wierdometer (they're no wierder than, for example, the Hivers) but they are a bit off the standard bipedal humanoid track.
Their reasons for so jealously protecting the Leenitakot ringworld are not made clear. The system is not central to their space, and isn't obviously of much use to them. Perhaps they know something the rest of us don't...
They communicate by means of light patterns produced by bioluminescence organs in their eye. This has the side-effect of making it appear that the night sky, with its twinkling stars, is effectively murmuring in the background. Hence the "whispering sky" - they are "outcasts" from its constant but incomprehensible conversation. This race has a rather paranoid mindset and are very xenophobic.
I wouldn't rate them a 10 on the wierdometer (they're no wierder than, for example, the Hivers) but they are a bit off the standard bipedal humanoid track.
Their reasons for so jealously protecting the Leenitakot ringworld are not made clear. The system is not central to their space, and isn't obviously of much use to them. Perhaps they know something the rest of us don't...
I run a campaign in the Hinterworlds (Nullia Subsector), right next door to Bruia and the OWS. At some point, my PCs will be enticed to join a covert expedition to this ringworld.Originally posted by Zutroi:
Any pc who acquires this information and doesn't even consider haring off after the greatest secret since the Acme Pocket Universe Creator(tm) should seriously consider retirement...
They will have to do the following:
1. Jump insystem correctly (remember, we don't have accurate survey data for the system) and, what a coincidence, the material and mass of the ringworld actually wreaks havoc on local realspace-jumpspace junctions.
2. Manage to avoid the OWS blockade, consisting of ships whose capabilities and performance are unknown (what do you mean they're accelerating at 7-Gs?!?) in order to approach the ringworld covertly. Too bad that the above j-space anomalies result in an even more intense jump flash, detectible from 30AU.
3. Evade the meteor defense which will try to shoot them down as soon as they approach the ringworld at greater than a specific velocity.
4. Try to obtain a sample of a material which cannot be harmed by any weapons they've brought with them.
5. Failing #4, above, they can attempt extremely time consuming, detailed and precise measurements, and observations of the ringworld and its composition, except that something is maintaining station keeping and meteor defense and that something is a little angry at being disturbed.
6. If they manage to get anything from this trip, they now have to make it out to the ringworld's 100D limit (take a guess at how far that is!), back through the OWS blockade.
7. Manage to jump outsystem safely, despite the anomalies in #1, above.
See Tom, I don't need a finished ringworld to give my PCs grey hair, peptic ulcers and angina attacks. And Zutroi, if you think they're going to get a solitary MCr for their troubles, then don't ever join one of my games ;o)
How about an unfinished planet then? Would you want your PCs to explore a planet that's still in the process of formation? There is a vast dist of gas and dust surrounding a star in which several planets are forming. The small planets are heavily cratered while the larger ones are molten due to the heat generated by all the infalling matter. The gas giants glow like miniture stars as they suck in more gas and dust. Would you want to fly your starship into this malstrome so you can explore one of these planets? What adventures await the intrepid adventurers who land in a sea of molten rock?
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
You really are raising the art of 'missing the point' to new levels, aren't you...
The ringworld is ARTIFICIAL. It's not something that every civilisation decides to make when it wakes up in the morning. Anything that advanced almost certainly has artifacts or historical or scientific importance on it, and indeed IS an artifact of historical or scientific importance. It's also unique, and people have been known to fight wars over unique things that they covet. (for a good sci-fi example, go read Iain M Banks' "Excession"). There would be many people and organisations interested in such a thing (though not you, evidently).
A forming planet isn't so exciting, since they form all the time in the galaxy - other than from a purely scientific viewpoint. Now, if you detected an alien radio beacon on a planet that was forming on a forming planet that nobody had ever visited before, then I'd bet there'd be people interested in finding out what it's doing there.
I've posted my answer in the Adventurers forum to keep this on topic.
As an additional thought: the Traveller spirit has always been to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, not to go shopping for a new purse.
You seem to get too hung up on "stuff" Tom. Anything is good adventure thread if you spin it right. Learn to appreciate the fine art of the "McGuffin".
Or, as the Philosophical GM was wont to say: "Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, and I'll tilt the world enough to scare the bejeezus out of any PC"
I don't know. I just thing an incomplete ringworld would produce a different sort of adventure than a complete ringworld would bring. It is not what I would call a "Ringworld Adventure" since a half-built ringworld is not really an example of a ringworld. The builders intended to build a ringworld but never actually got around to it, what remains is a giant cosmic scrap yard orbiting a star. Perhaps the builders never fully developed the right technology to complete it and orbiting the star are the results of their failed efforts.
It occurs to me that a civilization that undertakes the construction of a ringworld, would be one that never had developed the Jump Drive, it is a highly organized one to be sure, but one with inferior technology to the standard Offical Traveler Universe, since they don't have the jump drive and artificial gravity, they instead attempt to build a ringworld by taking apart the planets in their own system. Perhaps in this case while building the ringworld, the builders suddenly developed the Jump Drive and abandoned the project, that may be why the ringworld is unfinished.
I think a finished ringworld leaves open more possibilities. Were making this stuff up after all, and since we our conjuring this stuff up from our imaginations, why settle for second best?
A ringworld is the product of a technologically inferior civilization that never developed the Jump Drive. Perhaps it is a centrally commanded society that discourages innovation and creativity, like the old Soviet Union. They single mindedly pour resources into creating the advanded ringworld floor material while at the same time depleting resources towards efforts that would have led to the development of the jumpdrive. They develop crude starships in the form of Interstellar Ramjets, but the leaders of the society do not want independent colonies to be established around other stars and out of their control, so they instead find a suitable candidate star, this one is a Solar System in formation where the planets have not yet coalesced. Starships are sent there and out of all this loose rock, rubble and gas they form a ringworld instead using up all the material that would otherwise have formed planets. The Star is identical to their home star, and so at the right time, the authorities order a mass involuntary evacuation of their homeworld by hearding all their people into a giant fleet of interstellar ramjets and they all travel enmass to the ringworld site and settle it. After many eons of central rule civilization eventually collapses and the Ringworld is reduced to a wild state that Traveler PCs eventually encounter. This is not the same as that band of orbiting junk in the OTU but infinitely more interesting. Scavenging junk could also lead t5o interesting adventures but not really Ringworld adventures.
It occurs to me that a civilization that undertakes the construction of a ringworld, would be one that never had developed the Jump Drive, it is a highly organized one to be sure, but one with inferior technology to the standard Offical Traveler Universe, since they don't have the jump drive and artificial gravity, they instead attempt to build a ringworld by taking apart the planets in their own system. Perhaps in this case while building the ringworld, the builders suddenly developed the Jump Drive and abandoned the project, that may be why the ringworld is unfinished.
I think a finished ringworld leaves open more possibilities. Were making this stuff up after all, and since we our conjuring this stuff up from our imaginations, why settle for second best?
A ringworld is the product of a technologically inferior civilization that never developed the Jump Drive. Perhaps it is a centrally commanded society that discourages innovation and creativity, like the old Soviet Union. They single mindedly pour resources into creating the advanded ringworld floor material while at the same time depleting resources towards efforts that would have led to the development of the jumpdrive. They develop crude starships in the form of Interstellar Ramjets, but the leaders of the society do not want independent colonies to be established around other stars and out of their control, so they instead find a suitable candidate star, this one is a Solar System in formation where the planets have not yet coalesced. Starships are sent there and out of all this loose rock, rubble and gas they form a ringworld instead using up all the material that would otherwise have formed planets. The Star is identical to their home star, and so at the right time, the authorities order a mass involuntary evacuation of their homeworld by hearding all their people into a giant fleet of interstellar ramjets and they all travel enmass to the ringworld site and settle it. After many eons of central rule civilization eventually collapses and the Ringworld is reduced to a wild state that Traveler PCs eventually encounter. This is not the same as that band of orbiting junk in the OTU but infinitely more interesting. Scavenging junk could also lead t5o interesting adventures but not really Ringworld adventures.
ninthcouncil
SOC-11
The Leenitakot ringworld is explicitly described as having been created by the Ancients, so this wouldn't seem to be the case here (unless that is is an erroneous attribution, which throws up some interesting ideas.... hmmm!)
The other problem is that building a ring world requires a huge industrial base, and I can't see how that is going to be brought to bear at a distance without the use of Jump drive. Remember, you'd have to clear the system to safely construct a ringworld, so you're not going to be doing it in your homeworld system. Unless.... you construct the ringworld around the distant companion star of your homeworld primary, reachable without Jump. Leenitakot is indeed a double star system, with the ringworld around the secondary body.
Can you see where this is leading?
1. The Leenitakot ringworld was built by the Ancients.
2. A ringworld is of most benefit to a race that has not developed jump drive, and requires living space.
3. The mainworld of the Leenitakot system is populated primarily (80%) by chirpers.
Hypothesis: Before inventing Jump Drive, Yaskoydray's big project was to build a ringworld around the dwarf companion of his homeworld's main star. When he discovered Jump Drive, the project was abandoned. Leenitakot is the Ancient homeworld.
I love it. I can now move Adventure 12 to the Hinterworlds with a clear conscience
Perhaps this was the second ringworld that was started but not finished. Perhaps there was another one that was built before this, a completed ringworld.
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
The other problem is that building a ring world requires a huge industrial base, and I can't see how that is going to be brought to bear at a distance without the use of Jump drive.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually building a ringworld would require a high degree of automation. You would need to house a population that would just about fill up a ringworld if you were to do otherwise. The Ancients might have developed some A.I.s before they discovered the Jump Drive. These A.I.s multiply the labor of 1 one millionfold. the ancients would not want to create a race of mechanicals that would compete with them, so they would build them so they were dependent on taking instructions from an Ancient and when their task was complete they would shut down. When the ringworld was ready to be inhabited, they would begin transfering the population of their home world to the ringworld. Perhaps when the original ringworld became overpopulated the Ancients started building another ringworld, but then a revolution overtook them, and when the revolutionaries took over they discovered that their government suppressed knowledge of the Jump Drive all along in order to maintain control of the entire race, they promptly abandoned all work on the ringworld and let the original ringworld to settle the far corners of the galaxy. Of course a great war later overtook their decendents and destroyed the Ancient's civilization, but that's another story.
I just would like for their to be a completed ringworld lurking out their, waiting to be discovered so their could be proper ringworld adventures, not of the scavenging sort. In this months' Polyhedron for instance, there is a Planetary Romance d20 minigame, where a group of characters gets stranded on a planet. Larry Niven's Ringworld was a story of that sort, except the science was a bit harder, his ringworld had various sorts of humans on it as well as a variety of other races. Scavenging ruins, it doesn't really matter what the ruins are of, is a different sort of adventure than a Ringworld adventure. Just like an Adventure on E. R. Burrows Mars would be different from a party of astronauts exploring some ruins on Mars of a now dead civilization.
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
The other problem is that building a ring world requires a huge industrial base, and I can't see how that is going to be brought to bear at a distance without the use of Jump drive.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually building a ringworld would require a high degree of automation. You would need to house a population that would just about fill up a ringworld if you were to do otherwise. The Ancients might have developed some A.I.s before they discovered the Jump Drive. These A.I.s multiply the labor of 1 one millionfold. the ancients would not want to create a race of mechanicals that would compete with them, so they would build them so they were dependent on taking instructions from an Ancient and when their task was complete they would shut down. When the ringworld was ready to be inhabited, they would begin transfering the population of their home world to the ringworld. Perhaps when the original ringworld became overpopulated the Ancients started building another ringworld, but then a revolution overtook them, and when the revolutionaries took over they discovered that their government suppressed knowledge of the Jump Drive all along in order to maintain control of the entire race, they promptly abandoned all work on the ringworld and let the original ringworld to settle the far corners of the galaxy. Of course a great war later overtook their decendents and destroyed the Ancient's civilization, but that's another story.
I just would like for their to be a completed ringworld lurking out their, waiting to be discovered so their could be proper ringworld adventures, not of the scavenging sort. In this months' Polyhedron for instance, there is a Planetary Romance d20 minigame, where a group of characters gets stranded on a planet. Larry Niven's Ringworld was a story of that sort, except the science was a bit harder, his ringworld had various sorts of humans on it as well as a variety of other races. Scavenging ruins, it doesn't really matter what the ruins are of, is a different sort of adventure than a Ringworld adventure. Just like an Adventure on E. R. Burrows Mars would be different from a party of astronauts exploring some ruins on Mars of a now dead civilization.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
So what happens to the billions of shutdown Ancient AIs that built the ringworld?
A fully operational ringworld would change the OTU drastically. EVERYONE'S going to want a piece of it - the technology on and in it would probably be worth several genocides and all-out wars to get. It's not just something you can pop in and out of in a one-shot adventure - don't forget, it has more surface area than all the habitable worlds of the Imperium combined - it's practically a universe unto itself.
If you want people to explore a new world, stick 'em on a newly discovered planet on the rim of an empire. Putting them on a ringworld makes it a whole lot more complicated.
A fully operational ringworld would change the OTU drastically. EVERYONE'S going to want a piece of it - the technology on and in it would probably be worth several genocides and all-out wars to get. It's not just something you can pop in and out of in a one-shot adventure - don't forget, it has more surface area than all the habitable worlds of the Imperium combined - it's practically a universe unto itself.
If you want people to explore a new world, stick 'em on a newly discovered planet on the rim of an empire. Putting them on a ringworld makes it a whole lot more complicated.
I always thought that a Ringworld in the frontiers would be a cool place. One has to keep in mind although a lot of action happens in the Hinterworlds, they are still the backwoods of the Imperium and Hive Federation and Solomani Confederation.
So placing it there with a xenophobic race such as the Stalkers would still make sense. My interest is what would happen when the area becomes hot real estate...eg. when the Hivers and their allies (RC) start moving into the territory?
So placing it there with a xenophobic race such as the Stalkers would still make sense. My interest is what would happen when the area becomes hot real estate...eg. when the Hivers and their allies (RC) start moving into the territory?
