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Traveller Ringworld

So what happens to the billions of shutdown Ancient AIs that built the ringworld?
They would probably be recycled for the most part. A few construction robots would probably be saved to do repairs and maintenance.

A fully operational ringworld would change the OTU drastically. EVERYONE'S going to want a piece of it - the technology on and in it would probably be worth several genocides and all-out wars to get. It's not just something you can pop in and out of in a one-shot adventure - don't forget, it has more surface area than all the habitable worlds of the Imperium combined - it's practically a universe unto itself.
Yes, a ringworld would be a significant presence, but the ringworld tech is not all that high compared to the OTU, except for possible materials science. This ringworld would have been contructed by the Ancients, but at an early period in their history, before they developed their "magical" and "incomprehensible" TL 17+ technology that their known for. The ringworlders at the time of its construction had no grav technology, or jump drive technology. They did have nuclear fusion though. I think this would put them at late TL 8 or early TL 9, they have TL 16 AI technology though. I don't think advancements in computer tech should necessarily be tied with grav or jump drive technology. The artifacts taken from the ringworld aren't that impressive by OTU standards except for the AIs, and the material the ringworld is made of. The main thing about it is that its big.

If you want people to explore a new world, stick 'em on a newly discovered planet on the rim of an empire. Putting them on a ringworld makes it a whole lot more complicated.
It simplifies things as well. It is a campaign universe within a campaign universe. The PCs would have a choice about whether to adventure within the ringworld setting or explore the greater OTU. One thing that would be simpler would be animal encounter tables. Animals and creatures can roam all over the ringworld and constitute a single ecosystem, whereas with new planets you have to conjure up unique animal and plant life whereever life exists. Its feasible to contruct a "Monster Manual" for a ringworld setting campaign with the expectation that the PCs will spend most of their time exploring the Ringworld. With a planet-a-week space opera, the only creatures that can travel from planet to planet are those with starships. On a ringworld you can walk there, although higher tech will get you there faster. Ringworlds also allow native low tech civilizations access to space, if they are close to a wall.
 
I always thought that a Ringworld in the frontiers would be a cool place. One has to keep in mind although a lot of action happens in the Hinterworlds, they are still the backwoods of the Imperium and Hive Federation and Solomani Confederation.

So placing it there with a xenophobic race such as the Stalkers would still make sense. My interest is what would happen when the area becomes hot real estate...eg. when the Hivers and their allies (RC) start moving into the territory?
I think it works best if the PCs are the ones to discover it. The Ringworld's location can be discerened by examining the ruins of the incomplete ringworld, there are alot of ruins to examine, but their may be references to the older finished ringworld among them. Now this was a million years ago, the current position of the ringworld would have to be calculated, this would pin down the ringworld's coordinates to a single subsector. The PCs would have to explore each star in that subsector until they find the ringworld. The ringworld itself would lack metals with the exception of any infalling meteors. This situation is similar to that in Polyhedron's Iron Lords of Jupiter. One nation, on the ringworld, with access to a large chunk of meteoric iron would have more advanced technology and be able to dominate its neighbors. Now all we need is the ringworld's defense system to cripple the PC's starship so that it crashes on the ringworld inner surface about several weeks or months journey from the nearest rimwall and you have the makings of a ringworld adventure. Of course you'd vary the distance depending on what vehicles the PCs have access to. Keepin a supply of fuel would be an issue for speeders and the like, since even for them a ringworld is huge.
 
Thinking about the players discovering it. One could undertake a version of Traveller that brings the players into Ringworld's system by means of a misjump far past the realms of Chartered Space or next door. Don't let the players know without any Imperial beacons to guide them home, add a few red herings like Zhodani beacons in certain systems that tend to point coreward but in fact lead Trailing.

Culminating in the exploration of the Ringworld that may lead home or even beyond our own galaxy. Now that is epic, I wouldn't mind playing in...Hunter/MJD/writers... takers?
 
I don't buy the argument that the Ancients would build a ringworld in their 'low-tech' stage. I can easily imagine them building it as a kind of 'folly'.

A 'folly' is a building, park, or something similar that's built by rich folks pretty much just for the hell of it, or because they *can*. You can find a lot of them in the UK from the past few of centuries.

I could definitely see a ringworld as being a folly, and an incomplete one being one that the designers just got bored of, or ran out of resources/money for.
 
Why do you think of a Ringworld as a folly? As far as the Ringworld builders are concerned, faster than light travel is impossible and the only way to generate a gravity field is with alot of mass. Since the stars are impractically far away and take many decades to reach a ringworld is very practical, providing 3 million planets worth of living space within a small area. The builders wanted to stay as one civilization. This Ringworld would have been built by a race of engineers not scientists, they think they know all the known laws of the universe and proceed from the assumption that faster than light travel is impossible, they are not very curious to find out if they are wrong. People doing Jump Drive research are treated as crackpots and never received any funding. This is a top down heirarcial society, technological progress is very slow compared to humans, those technologies required to build a ringworld advance more quickly than other technologies. There was no private enterprise or individual initiative in this ancient society, everything proceeded according to the Master Plan of the leader. life extension research was also actively pursued so as to extend the leader's life as long as possible. The leader is not prone to accept other ideas that are not his own such as the Jump drive for instance. Anyway if FTL were possible, he'd see it as circumventing his own power and would use all possible means to supress it.
 
Can't something for you have more than one potential? A ringworld allows for realtime democracy, that is a requirement for democracy, that doesn't mean that a ringworld will be or must be democratic, merely that it has that potential, It can also be a totalitarian police state. Having a potential to be one thing does not contradict having a potential to be another. I was comparing a ringworld to the Imperium, which does not have the potential to be a democracy, because the two way communication an election would require would take too long. The Imperium also would not make a very good police state, because a police state must check up on its citizens in real time in order to maintain control. The Imperium can only be a loose feudal empire at best because that requires only one way communication and relies on local decision making by provincial rulers. How many time do I have to explain this? Potential to be something does not imply destiny!
 
I think Traveller Ringworld would make a great product, should they decide to publish it. It seems to me they would need a map showing a section of the ringworld. The ringworld band would be about 1 million miles wide from rim wall to rim wall. Land feature could include gigantic oceans and continents on this scale. things such as mountains, lakes are rivers would be too small to be seen on this scale, so we would need a blow up map including a section of rim wall. This section could be 10,000 miles wide with one edge of the map showing the rim wall, mountain ranges on this scale would appear as little smudges on the map, large lakes and seas would also be visible. A third map would be 100 miles wide and would include mountains, rivers, lakes, cities, roads and all the usual featurea. A 4th map could show a spaceport built into a cross section of the rim wall with an airlock valve and an interstellar fusion ramjet parked outside. A section could include a beastiary showing typical animal encounters and intelligent races found on the ringworld, specifically in the area of the 3rd detail map near the rimwall.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Why do you think of a Ringworld as a folly? As far as the Ringworld builders are concerned, faster than light travel is impossible and the only way to generate a gravity field is with alot of mass. Since the stars are impractically far away and take many decades to reach a ringworld is very practical, providing 3 million planets worth of living space within a small area. The builders wanted to stay as one civilization. This Ringworld would have been built by a race of engineers not scientists, they think they know all the known laws of the universe and proceed from the assumption that faster than light travel is impossible, they are not very curious to find out if they are wrong. People doing Jump Drive research are treated as crackpots and never received any funding. This is a top down heirarcial society, technological progress is very slow compared to humans, those technologies required to build a ringworld advance more quickly than other technologies. There was no private enterprise or individual initiative in this ancient society, everything proceeded according to the Master Plan of the leader. life extension research was also actively pursued so as to extend the leader's life as long as possible. The leader is not prone to accept other ideas that are not his own such as the Jump drive for instance. Anyway if FTL were possible, he'd see it as circumventing his own power and would use all possible means to supress it.
First, it's only as far as you're concerned that the builders didn't have FTL and did all of that. I believe it's canonical that the Ancients were the builders of the ringworld? Therefore they did have FTL, and had high technology in other areas, so your ideas are very much 'Your Traveller Universe', and when last I looked we were talking about the OTU here.

Given that, they certainly don't need to build a ringworld, since other planets are easily accessible (and the Ancients probably had much better and longer range jump drives than the 3I has). The Ancients are also known for doing wacky things apparently just for the heck of it (like transplanting human races to worlds scattered over hundreds of parsecs and altering them). So a 'folly' makes perfect sense from that perspective: it's something that some of them wanted to build, largely because they could, but for some reason - be it disaster, the Final War, lack of resources, plain sheer boredom, or a sudden change of heart - never got round to finishing. It's the simplest explanation given what we know about it, I think.
 
First, it's only as far as you're concerned that the builders didn't have FTL and did all of that. I believe it's canonical that the Ancients were the builders of the ringworld? Therefore they did have FTL, and had high technology in other areas, so your ideas are very much 'Your Traveller Universe', and when last I looked we were talking about the OTU here.
The Ancients didn't have FTL before they invented it! Your assuming that the Ancients always had the Jump Drive ever since they first evolved. I don't know what canonical source says this. the assumption I'm making is that this ringworld was not built during the last days of the Ancients when they were at the height of their power, this is way before that. There would be no such ancient artifacts on this ringworld that you might imagine. Instead we have more mundane technologies that are remarkable only because they are a million years old, but otherwise not quite up to snuff as far as the Imperium is concerned. The Ancients abandoned their toy when they developed the Jump drive seeing no further use for it and many thousands of years passed after that when they reached the height of their powers and then something happened to them. Your assuming late ancients and I'm assuming Early ancients, the early Ancient's tech can work no miracles and are quite understandible to the imperials, in a few areas such as materials science and AI research they were more advanced, but thats about it. I hope you read what I'm trying to say so I don't have to repeat myself. Going over the same points time and again can be exhausting.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
The Ancients didn't have FTL before they invented it!
And the very first Ancient invented it. How do you think the Ancients got from their home world in the Regina subsector to the Leeniakot system?

Your assuming that the Ancients always had the Jump Drive ever since they first evolved. I don't know what canonical source says this.
Secret of the Ancients and Droyne.

The assumption I'm making is that this ringworld was not built during the last days of the Ancients when they were at the height of their power, this is way before that. There would be no such ancient artifacts on this ringworld that you might imagine. Instead we have more mundane technologies that are remarkable only because they are a million years old, but otherwise not quite up to snuff as far as the Imperium is concerned.
The ability to build a ringworld and technology far beyond the ken of the Imperium go together.

The Ancients abandoned their toy when they developed the Jump drive seeing no further use for it...
The Ancients would need jump drive to get to where they built the ringworld.

and many thousands of years passed after that when they reached the height of their powers and then something happened to them. Your assuming late ancients and I'm assuming Early ancients, the early Ancient's tech can work no miracles and are quite understandible to the imperials, in a few areas such as materials science and AI research they were more advanced, but thats about it. I hope you read what I'm trying to say so I don't have to repeat myself. Going over the same points time and again can be exhausting.
If you had bothered to explain from the start that you were basing all your assumptions on an extremely non-standard version of Ancients you might not have had to.


Hans
 
*points to Hans' reply*
Um. Yeah. What he said.

Sorry Tom, but your background for this doesn't remotely explain the Ringworld within the OTU. The more fudges you try to add, the less likely it sounds.

It's fine in your own Traveller universe of course, but the rest of us don't play in that
.
 
To be fair to Tom, Secrets of the Ancients does state that pre-Grandfather, the proto-Ancient civilisation had achieved TL10 without inventing Jump, and had gone so far as to establish some small colonies on other worlds using STL methods. For Grandfather to have created a Ringworld before he discovered Jump drive doesn't conflict particularly with canon - excepting the location of the Leenitakot specimen, on the other side of Charted Space from the OTU Ancient homeworld.
 
Originally posted by ninthcouncil:
To be fair to Tom, Secrets of the Ancients does state that pre-Grandfather, the proto-Ancient civilisation had achieved TL10 without inventing Jump, and had gone so far as to establish some small colonies on other worlds using STL methods. For Grandfather to have created a Ringworld before he discovered Jump drive doesn't conflict particularly with canon
*snip*
Surely you need to have a much higher TL than TL10 to make a ringworld though... you need the materials tech, and some largescale planet dissembling too. IIRC 'Total Terraforming' was mentioned on the TL chart in the MT Ref's Companion, and it was somewhere in the TL20's or high teens...
 
Surely you need to have a much higher TL than TL10 to make a ringworld though... you need the materials tech, and some largescale planet dissembling too.
You could build a ringworld without fantastic materials, the assumption has been that the entire ringworld is spinning around the star so as to produce 1-G on its inner surface, under this condition you need a material with a high strength to weight ratio, but what if only part of the ringworld is spinning fast enough to produce 1-G, but inside the structure of the ringworld are many supporting cables that are counter-rotated so that they don't have to support their own weight. The cables can then be arbitrarily thick and as massive as it needs to be to support the spinning portion of the ringworld. The non-spinning portion holds up the spinning portion through magnetic fields.
Disassembling planets is not a problem if the planets haven't formed yet out of the protoplaterary nebula. Instead of blowing up pre-existing planets, you divert the material on the way to forming the planets instead toward building the ringworld. You need to find a primordial solar system, but there are alot of examples of such stars. Also you can get more material out of the protoplanetary nebula than you can out of the planets it will eventually form, because most of this material is either swallowed up by the star or expelled from the star system.
IIRC 'Total Terraforming' was mentioned on the TL chart in the MT Ref's Companion, and it was somewhere in the TL20's or high teens...
A ringworld is more like a giant space station than a planet that needs terraforming. Anyway the fact that it needs to rotate to produce gravity indicates that they don't have grav tech. Otherwise they can build a giant hollow sphere with grav plates to produce gravity. The only thing fantastic about a ringworld is its size.
 
Tom, I think you're failing to grasp how difficult building a ringworld is. And now you're saying that you can build it out of protoplanetary material?! Do you know how hostile an environment a protoplanetary disk is?! For one thing, you'd have gas drag acting on the ringworld shell all the time. Meteorites smashing into it left right and centre. Huge magnetic field fluctuations and gargantuan solar flares from the protostar. You can't just make it out of planetesimals, especially not at TL 10 - the materials technology simply isn't there!!! (building a planetary beanstalk is one thing, but a ringworld is vastly more complex). Hell, just learning how to build a ringworld and inventing all the required technologies would probably take a civilisation from TL10 to TL20 in numerous fields.
 
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Tom, I think you're failing to grasp how difficult building a ringworld is.
Yup. Some boffin re-did the math.

In order to provide Earthlike gravity on the inner surface, the Ringworld needs to be spinning at roughly 1249 kilometers a second linear velocity at the edge. Needless to say, this is extremely fast.
I'll leave it to some real engineers to explain to Tom why you can't just string a bunch of cables all over the place (hint: tensile strength) and why such a structure would wobble (ever true a bicycle wheel?).

ibid.
There are a few catches, however. First of all, the material the Ringworld is made of, scrith, is fictional. The stresses such an artifact would undergo are so strong that the tensile strength of scrith approaches that of the strong nuclear force, which holds atoms together (4). Second, after construction, the Ringworld must be spun up to the correct speed.
...

ibid.
Given the mass of the Ringworld as 2.1*10^27 kg (5), and the velocity of all sections of the Ringworld of 1249 k/s, the total energy stored in the Ringworld is (we need not concern ourselves with the intricacies of rotational kinetic energy, because all the mass in the Ringworld is at the same radius, and therefore has the same velocity.)
...

ibid.
The Ringworld contains 1.6*10^39 joules of kinetic energy. This is equal to the entire energy output of a Sunlike star for 130,000 YEARS (6). Clearly, spinning the Ringworld is a major undertaking.
Anyone (cough, Tom, cough) starting to see why even an unfinished ringworld is a really big deal? And why it can't be just a bunch of junk in orbit (the ringworld is actually not in orbit around it's primary)

ibid.
There is also a stability issue. Inside the ring, the gravitational forces from the mass of all parts of the ring will exactly cancel itself out... Therefore, gravity will not keep the Ringworld centered around the star, and some sort of attitude jets will be needed...
 
Yup. Some boffin re-did the math.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to provide Earthlike gravity on the inner surface, the Ringworld needs to be spinning at roughly 1249 kilometers a second linear velocity at the edge. Needless to say, this is extremely fast.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll leave it to some real engineers to explain to Tom why you can't just string a bunch of cables all over the place (hint: tensile strength) and why such a structure would wobble (ever true a bicycle wheel?).
Objection 1: You need fantastic materials to hold the ringworld in place.

Answer: Thicker cables have more tensile strength. If you make the cables thick enough they will be strong enough to hold the ringworld floor in a circular orbit around the sun. It doesn't matter what the cables are made out of, so long as it has some tensile strength the cable will be stronger if you make it thicker. Steel will do.

Objection 2: Thicker cables will be heavier and will have to support their own weight as well as the weight of the ringworld.

Answer 2: Not it the cable is not spinning around the star. A cable can still support the ring world floor even if it is not spinning around the star with it. The way you do this is through magnetic levitation. The cable forms a circle around the star, but it is stationary, it has no outward weight because it is not spinning, the star's gravity pulls it inward. This cable forms a maglev track along which the ringworld runs. The ringworld floor runs around the star and is travelling at 1249 km to produce 1-G on its inner surface, but not the stationary cable that supports it. The cable is quite massive, much more so than the ringworld floor itself, but the cable is also quite dense, like tungstein, so it doesn't take up that much space. The ringworld floor is made of light, high strenght material, so that it only has to support itself between support cables. The tungstein cables are completely enclosed by the ringworld floor materials and are not seen from the outside. Even the ringworld walls are supported by these internal nonrotating cables. The tensile strength of the nonrotating cables balances the outward force of the rotating ringworld floor.

So you see no tech magic is required except fot magnetic levitation.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:

Objection 1: You need fantastic materials to hold the ringworld in place.
Objection 1' (1 Prime): making cables, even out of steel, to the size and specifications required would be an engineering feat bordering on magical. At the very least, you'd need orbital production facilities and the ability to move really big pieces of steel over very long distances.

Objection 2': what you propose is more complicated mechanically than the Niven design, hence more likely to fail over the geologic lifetime of an artifact such as the ringworld. You have set the system up in such a way that you guarantee eventual catastrophic failure, unless you commit to a maintenance program on a massive scale, spanning tens of thousands (or maybe even millions) of years. It will also require a lot more material, most of it heavy elements which are more scarce. Though he doesn't come out and say this, Niven implies that the Pak were able to manipulate substances at the atomic level, which means you could even tease scrith out of lighter, more common elements such as H or He.

Objection 3': The Niven design, once built, needs only energy input from the star it encircles. The star provides light and heat to drive the ringworld's ecological carbon cycle. The star also provides fuel, in the form of cast off hydrogen "wind" for the ringworld's Brussard station-keeping jets. Being a much simpler design overall, there's less to go wrong, hence fewer opportunities for catastrophic failure over the geologic lifetime of the artifact.

Once "spun up", Niven's ringworld maintains a constant velocity because nothing is left in the system, besides the star, to slow it down. (Niven didn't deal with interstellar dust clouds, etc. and their effect on an object as massive as the ringworld would probably be negligable). That's why he makes a point of stating that the ringworld system was empty except for the structure and its star. You either need to start with a star that never developed a planetary accretion disk or one in which the builders removed everything else. So all that the ringworld needs is light and heat for its ecosystem and a minimal amount of "fuel" for station keeping.

Your ropeworld will need constant input of energy sufficient to create the maglev effect between the rope structure and the ringworld, proper. Do you get that from the star? If so, how? And how do you spin the maglev track up to speed? Oh yeah, how do you make cables that massive out of tungsten? Isn't it one of the more difficult metals to work with?

I ask because you've said that "maglev" is the only superscience involved here and I think that the ability to completely clear a planetary system, build a structure the size of a rope/ringworld and then accelerate it to greater than orbital velocity is a leetle beyond what we can do now.

Objection 4': You've envisioned your ropeworld as a structure which is pulled rigid by gravity, but that assumes the ropeworld would be stationary in space!

An object stays in orbit around a star because it's angular momentum equals the gravitational force exherted by the star. Your ropeworld isn't moving and it's centre of gravity overlaps the star's center of gravity. So what holds it in place?

Niven's ringworld spins faster than orbital velocity, which counteracts the star's gravitational pull. That's why in Ringworld Engineers Niven had to explain the presence (or lack thereof) of attitude jets along the rimwall. Your design doesn't address this problem and your "ring" of cables would eventually drift off-center until it contacted the star.

So you see no tech magic is required except fot magnetic levitation.
You've proposed a design which assumes all of the complexity of desigining and building a massive, unstable structure, but none of the simplicity which would be required to allow this structure to survive for a long period of time. Niven's idea is better than yours because, magic tech aside, it's simpler and less prone to catastrophic failure.
 
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