Twilight 2000 for T20

[clementk]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Why not create an alternate universe where the Cold War never ended? The obvious departure date is when the hardliners seized power in the Soviet Union from Gorbachev. In our history the hardliners were overthrown, but what if they weren't?

<snip>
IIRC this is pretty much what happened in the 2.0 and 2.2 version timelines. GDW set a point where the real world and the game world split and took it from there.

A reunited Germany and Poland arguing over borders trigger the war.

Works well enough for a new version. Though again I wouldn't mind having a basic book with the core rules, equipment, etc. and two or more suggested settings.

Enough to work with, if you already have the OOP T2K material you're set or you can get the new reprints, if you want to run a different game you have the tools. IMO TW2K, Spec Ops/Merc:2000, and perhaps current missions in Bosnia, Solmalia, anti-terrorist stuff.

Casey

 

[TKalbfus]

IIRC this is pretty much what happened in the 2.0 and 2.2 version timelines. GDW set a point where the real world and the game world split and took it from there.

A reunited Germany and Poland arguing over borders trigger the war.

The Coup attempt in 1990 seems like a better fit. We also have the advantage of living in the era that is the Setting of Twilight 2000. When does WW III actually start? 1995? A war between Germany and Poland seems like an artificial way to get WW III going. Neither Germany or Poland is a Nuclear Power. A war between those two countries would be conventional. I think a Twilight 2000 campaign set in 2003 might be interesting. Also what France did in the Twilight 2000 timeline is very believable, especially now that they have proven themselves to be such a worthless ally. The Twilight 2000 - Traveller 2300 timeline is one great big French Fantasyland. Now offense to any French people online, but that is just what I observe, I wish it were otherwise.

 

[Greylond]

Well, first off I think a war that starts between the Germany and Poland of 1990 is very believible. You have to remember that the Nukes didn't start flying even in the original game background until the Soviets thought they could bully the USA/UK into pulling out of it with a "Thanksgiving Surprise" in late 1997. The first 2+ years of the war were conventional. Even after the Nukes flew it wasn't a full fledged Nuke War. Each side was trying to limit the strikes to Military/Industrial and primary Government locations. Neither side wanted a General Strike which would brought the End alot sooner. Both sides were suffering from the belief that the other side would quit first.

One of the things I really liked about the setting from the first time I read it was the slow slide into oblivion that both sides took the World into.

Also, every NCO and Officer that I ever spoke too who was in the U.S. Army in Europe always said that NATO never figured on France helping out in a land war in Europe. They always planned their wargames around the assumption that France would sit it out.


Greylond

 

[kafka47]

Moving the timeline forward... Many Poles do not trust the West will protect their security against Russia and Germany. If we see the European project fail in Central Europe, we could well end up with a "1997" scenario.

I wonder what would be the effect is SARS is not containable and causes depopulation of urban centres and migration pushes. So far Russia has an open border to goods from China and Turkey. In the future, this is going to change, with Russian industries taking more of a share of the domestic and international markets. How long can we expect that this will not result in some sort of conflict?

 

[kafka47]

Hunter/MJD, it just occurred to me. Why not tailor Twilight20-2000 around the recovery period that would lead into the revised TNE milieu?

 

[savage]

Today, if Germany and Poland went to war why would the rest of NATO or the Russians get involved? Not much reason unless one of the Gov'ts had plans on expanding beyond the others' borders...

If it were based on a similar war the coup of Russia democracy by the military followed by blitzkrieg across europe might be more interesting. It would also fix the fatal flaw in T2000. The Americans are the bad guys behind Soviet lines not heroes. This was the main reason to start up the US set of modules. In the states the characters would be heroic.

Or perhaps the Russians and the EU would go to war. That would drag the US into a NATO dispute.

I wouldn't mind seeing an updated version of the equipment/ vehicles list. But I've always been pro- Version 1.


Savage

 

[savage]

I am not so certain that a 1990s solution is the way to go. Why bother re-writing the 90s theme. The existing game is an alternative universe (timeline).

I'd say a 21st century version would be more interesting without a defined year. Perhaps its dependent on something that occured in the year 2000. etc. So, I think there are several interesting alternative timelines to starting a global way. And more than enough parties that would take advantage of it.

For example, if the EU and Russia fought over new oil discoveries (or collapse of the Russian Democracy) it might give China the opportunity to expand to its "claimed" borders while every religious extremist did their part.

Savage

 

[TKalbfus]

I am not so certain that a 1990s solution is the way to go. Why bother re-writing the 90s theme. The existing game is an alternative universe (timeline).

Well it is called Twilight 2000. In order for it to be Twilight 2000 it has to be an alternate history. Otherwise you could call it Twilight 2050. 2050 is the year that China may become a superpower on par with the US. The only problem would be that the weapon systems used would be pure made up Science Fiction. What I would like is a realistic World War III game based on a US/USSR confrontation that could have happened had history taken a different turn. Their is a difference between a realistic Alternate history and an unrealistic one. An example of an unrealistic setting would be a series of improbable events over a short peroid of time leading to the sudden rise to power in Germany of the Nazis and a Fourth Reich that miraculously becomes a superpower overnight and then launches world war III using previously unheard of weapons. A USSR that never fell seems to me to be more realistic that a sudden empire that rises from the Ashes.

 

[TKalbfus]

My idea is version one. There is just a slight modification in that the August 1991 coup in the USSR succeeds in keeping the USSR around until 1995 when World War III begins. We also know the names of the coup leaders so we can add them to revised Twilight 2000 materials. There names are Prime Minister Valentin Pavlov, Defense Minister Dmitry Yazov, KGB Chief Vladimir Kryuchkov, and Interior Minister Boris Pugo. Prime Minister Valentin Pavlov would liely be the Soviet Leader in 1995 at the start of World War III in the Twilight 2000 timeline. They might be very paranoid after the coup and overthrow of Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev. They would likely revert to oppressive measures as in the Soviet past. The main problem as far as they are concerned would be the dissappearance of the Warsaw Pact. The communist governments of those countries have for the most part been overthrown. The Soviets might still have bases in Poland in 1991. I'm not sure though. Perhaps someone could check on this. Perhaps the Soviet Army invades Poland in 1995 and the U.S. and Nato forces go in to meet them. Perhaps even fighting side-by-side with the Poles. The Soviets might refuse to remove all their troops from Poland and this might lead to a rise in tensions. Perhaps the presence of Soviet troops in Poland could be used as a pretext for more Soviet forces to invade. There are Soviet bases in Eastern Germany as well, at least in the T2000 timeline their could be. the heightend tension could change the outcome of the 1992 Presidential election. Military spending would increase on both sides from 1991 to 1997. The period from 1995 to 1997 would be an interesting time for the home fronts. It would be a quasi-world war II like setting. As civilian production gets converted toward military uses. People get drafted into the armed services and sent over seas. There would be widespread gas rationing and food rationing. In 1996 the would be another U.S. election George Bush would have served his maximum of 2 terms in the White House. He would probably be holed up somewhere in Colorado Springs of flying around in Air Force One. Perhaps there would be a 1996 Election. Maybe due to the existing national emergency he would be allowed to serve a third term or perhaps Dan Quale would be elected in his place. As the Democrats are presently consituted I doubt they'd stand a chance of gaining the White House in this election. If they did, there might not be a war as they would probably just pull the U.S. troops out of Europe, but the point is to have a war so we can have the Twilight 2000 setting, so the President would need to be someone who's willing to fight, hence a Republican. in 1997 someone miscalculates and nuclear weapons get used. Perhaps this is the result of the collapse of an army on the conventional front. You know the period from 1995 to 1997 might be an interesting role playing experience by itself. A strategic board game might even be developed for it.

 

[savage]

I think your missing my point it certainly isn't 2050... do whatever these were just suggestions.

There is absolutely no reason that conflicts between Russia and the EU could not result in a war. There is no reason to assume that the Russian democracy will survive the high number of facists in their own population. And the dissatisfied people.

Twilight 2000 started in the 90s and went into the 21st century. So why not start in the early 2000s?

 

[William]

Actually the simplest solution to the timeline is to say that Gorbachev never came to power.

No Gorby, no Peristroika, no additional consumer expectations by the Russian people, certainly no raised hopes in East Germany and the Soviet economy keeps creaking along until '95. The unrest of 89 would doubtless still occur, but would be squashed in the "traditional" matter. This would be a perfect time to say that the East and West German generals began to talk secretly.

The US buildup still puts huge stress on the Soviet economy and perhaps it's an outgrowth of those stresses that leads to the tensions on the Chinese boarder. Just a "short, victorious war" to take the peoples minds off thier troubles...

The rest of the timeline flows just fine. The break point between the "Real World" and Twilight 2000 becomes March 11, 1985 when someone else is elected General Secretary - Chernenko's preferred succesor was Victor Grishin, Moscow Party Secretary so he would be a good choice for game purposes.

William
(copyright 2003 William Barnett-Lewis)

 

[TKalbfus]

The downside of that is that the earlier the history departs from our own, the less the present resembles our own as well. So from 1985 to 1995 nothing happened and then the East and West German Generals got together. And of course the U.S. President is John Smith, a non political independent who is not very interesting, and who just basically keeps the seat warm in the Oval Office until the time comes to give the launch codes. Sounds kind of boring and generic don't you think. I think the history looks more interesting if the departure occurs in 1991. The outcome and political effects are more predictable and the political figures are more recognizable. The PCs might even meet the Twilight 2000 version of General Tommy Franks, or Colin Powel. I kind of like having Daniel Quayle as President of the United States in this history. People don't like to "change horses" in midstream so to speak or in the middle of a war. The US public would likely make a conservative choice in the election of 1996 in the twilight 2000 timeline.

 

[Ellros]

Well, between the war in Iraq, release of Ravenshield for the PC and a couple mods for Battlefield 1942, several of my players are itching for me to run T2k again. Looks like I might be running both T2k and T20 now.
I'll be dusting off my T2k Iran campaign from 1989 I think, and making some tweaks.

 

[William]

Originally posted by Ellros:
Well, between the war in Iraq, release of Ravenshield for the PC and a couple mods for Battlefield 1942, several of my players are itching for me to run T2k again. Looks like I might be running both T2k and T20 now.
I'll be dusting off my T2k Iran campaign from 1989 I think, and making some tweaks.

I fear that one could do worse than use Baghdad of '03 as the start of WWIII.

I wonder what it would take to write a politically agnostic timeline from today?

William

 

[TKalbfus]

What if the SARs virus was deadlier than expected killing off 99.9% of the world's population? There is just 6 million people left on the Earth. There was no war, all the buildings are left standing, just fewer people. Society breaks down, but all the technological weapondry is left around to play with. What would happen?

 

[savage]

Probably wouldn't meet each other or would have so many resources that they wouldn't need to fight...sounds more Morrow Project though.

I like the Middle East being a catalyst. Its easy to see how torn the UN is over this but I believe that it should be a group of events starting with the year 2000. Say the first effort to put terrorist into the US before Y2k, 9/11, invasions of Afganistan and Iraq spreading US forces... the plot line would escalate. As it gets farther along stop putting dates along with the timeline so that it's in the "near future". That makes the timeline become a bit more flexible to adjustments.

A few good points:
1. Knowing that virus a (from overpopulation) and terrorist are eating away at society helps significantly.
2. Perhaps on of the Husseins makes it to Syria and reinforces a terrorist cell with more cash. Eating away at more NATO assets.
4. If the french pass on the war it should be economic colapse, as well as this growing pacifist movement.
5. There must be at least two sides perhaps three. In a discussion w/Loren, he once insisted that Twilight needs to stay balanced. Either an over extended US (remember Rome) or a very strong Axis power. It would also mean the tactical strikes result in an inability to escalate. As in the original game. Although, we could mix in some nuetron bombs vs some targets to leave something to rebuild.

One thing is certain.
In a recent article in Economist magazine it brought up the pros and cons of the UN in its present state. In a redesign of the security council we would either have too many superpower to actually agree on anything (nuclear power) or we would just have the US (the only true superpower remaining) with a Veto. Neither are good options. A redesign of the UN could cause more uncertainty and mistrust at this point in time. Possibly, including secret alliances. They also mentioned that our global villiage needs a policeman.

In such a timeline, how would you push the world over the edge. Do you include North Korea? Or is the regime going down soon. Perhaps sparks fly because either a terrorist group or NK nuke Tokyo.
The US response might be brutal. Alienating china and russia.
I suppose the actual trigger could be the result of several detonations over a short time period. What would the nuclear destruction of key Iraq oil assets do to the world economy. Perhaps those Polish/Ukraine oil wells would be more attractive The germans might not cross the line (they have a strong pacifist movement too) but they might respond dragging NATO along with them.

Savage

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Savage:
Probably wouldn't meet each other or would have so many resources that they wouldn't need to fight...sounds more Morrow Project though.

So kill off some smaller figure. 90% will leave 600 million but my guess is that it would still cause the collapse of civilization as we know it.
Just a guess. How many random deaths could a Western style indusrialized society take without collapsing?


Hans

 

[TKalbfus]

Does it matter what year it is? What if its 50 to 100 years after the collapse of civilization? What if you have tribes cruising down the ruined interstate picking up a weapon here and there and fighting with it. The scraps form the ruins won't last forever, things breakdown and there's bound to be fights over what's left.

 

[savage]

Tom: Does it matter what year it is?

Yes and no. If T2000 preceeds the T2300 game then yes. A large scale timeline needs to be followed. No there could be several timelines written, for example.
1. Original 1990's timeline
2. The New T20 timeline - early 21st century war
3. Post-war collapse (5 yrs perhaps)
4. The dark ages (perhaps a Foundation or a few city states exist to try and clean things up).
5. The New World Society (30 years post war) leading to T2300.


Savage

 

[savage]

Hans: How many random deaths could a Western style indusrialized society take without collapsing?

Great question. I figure a loss of 40% of the world pop would cause great anarchy. A world pop of 3.6 mil would be devestating after the war. Assume that the war losses are heavier in the security council members. And that the dark ages watch the third world drop another billion from disease and starvation. 3rd world armies launching mediocre efforts to grab resources. You end up with disaster.
But there are plenty of options for rebuilding if local govts can stay stable. Weapon systems are available for protection but require refiting. For example several US cities have retired naval vessels that could become defense platforms.

I would suspect that parts of the world would become the mad max society. But for it to come back to T2300 a few areas would need to survive. Probably in the state of cities and towns. Local militaries might swear alegance to the local mayor and councils others would become dictators....


Savage