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Twilight 2000 for T20

Remember these three things;
1. It must be a Complex War of Attrition. It cannot get fixed in a summit. Hence, several alliances and a stretched superpower.
2. the US/UK remains good guys, not conquerors.
3. the T2300 future needs to be a possible outcome.
To satisfy condition 1, we need to put an idiot in the White House. The military as its constituted now won't let a war of attrition occur. We need a very liberal President of the United States who deeply slashes defense spending after prematurely declaring victory in some conflict. This president emerged from the Vietnam Anti-war movement, and he deeply believes that War is not the answer no matter what. Of course some dictators catch wind of this and they begin rattling their sabers and threatening war unless the US grants some concessions to avoid war, this the US does because the President believes War is not the Answer and for a time he does this successfully. We should give Dictator "Uno" about 10 to 15 years to build his empire. The U.S. carefully avoids tangling with dictator "Uno" because he detests war but is otherwise a successful president, after serving two terms in office, his vice-president is elected president for another two terms.
Meanwhile Dictator "Uno" is a very efficient and ruthless leader who executes all his opponents and rapidly industrializes his once poor country. Everyone gets a job, men get drafted in the Army. Dictator "Uno's" country conquers a number of surrounding countries using "revolutionary" tactics of subversion rather than open confrontation. The U.S. President lets him get away with this, and the countries neighnoring Uno's, but not bordering it, are also run by pacifist liberals who want to avoid provoking Uno into conflict. Finally Uno's armies run into a country that's not willing to give in without a fight. The U.S. President is unable to look the other way this time without being made to be seen a fool by his political opponents and so tries to makeup for 15 years of military neglect in his last year in office. The result is World War III.
This is basically the same scenario that started World War II. Dictator "Uno" in that case was Hitler. In this case perhaps "Uno" wears a towel on his head and grows a beard, or perhaps "Uno" is Chinese. No doubt a Chinese "Uno" would want to get a hold of Taiwan and a few other places. "Uno" might be Japanese. Perhaps Uno's country is a combination of Japan and China, with a United Korea thrown in. A country made up of those four countries could present a serious challenge to the United States. The Communist backwardness is completely tossed out of China. The Chinese adopt a completely new nondemocratic form of government with unfettered capitalistic mechanisms inside the country while cross-border trade is regulated. This government is completely ruthless in eliminating people who prove to be a burden on the government. In another era this government might be described as "national socialistic" or facist. The weak and the crippled are eliminated as are people described as inferior races. Of course the Mandarin Oriental is the "Master Race" in this case and all others are considered to varing degrees as inferior.
This country does not exist, so that's why it needs 15 years to form, and 15 years to reach the point where it believes it can conquer the world. Both sides have done active research in missile defenses, and they are roughly 99.9% effective, but the remaining 0.01% of the missiles that get through wrecks a lot of havoc and society breaks down. Many cities are spared destruction including NYC, but the residents of those cities flee in panic as the missiles fly. Work does not get done because people refuse to return to those cities where the work is. Enough cities are destroyed to cause a panic but not much beyond that.
 
First I like to apoligized for calling anybodies work dumb, it is very hard to write these modules and they were based on the best information at the time. I did enjoy most of them and any dislike was because it did not fit my personal world view.
This brings up a point in writing these alternate histories that people perfer different themes for their campaigns.
I perfer a more military based campaign where the units may have less soldiers and equipment but are still following the orders of their government. I would not have brigades with 50 men.
This means each campaign would pick a desired result then work the history backwards.
For example, I want an organized command structure with units of 400 men for the Inf Bn and 30 tanks for the Arm Bn on average.
So the US still has to exist with at least one functioning government.
Since the US military will be fighting in several different areas I est a US military (Army,Navy,AF,etc) at 250 thousand including support troops.This total does not include state troops, civil defense, National Guard, Federal or local police that would be performing security or reconstuction duties in the US.
The US population during WWII was about 150 million and they supported a 5 million man military. So the population has to be far less.
Maybe 50 million for the US government you are running. There may be several factions in the US bringing the population total higher but not be under your control.
So this means wherever US troops go they need at least a parity with opposing forces either by numbers or technologic advances.
So whatever country you are fighting has to be reduced by whatever amount to achieve parity taking into consideration they may have troops elsewhere dealing with internal security or another opponent.
Only the countries that are fighting need to have their military resources reduced. Neutral countries would still have their military intact if reduced in numbers.
Any prelude to war would have to reduce most of the world population or resources to leave the US as a world power.
Any Alliances that still exsist would be between countries and not regional.
For example, Beligum were more than likely wish to stay neutral in any European conflict with the US. So they would leave NATO but stay in EU at least at first( the EU is not a military alliance so it could not compel its members to fight the US at least not at first). So a couple years into T2K the military would still be effective if smaller. The government would be stable and with most of the country intact.
 
Consider a 2014 conflict. Lets say the US has elected to successful liberal antiwar presidents with their party as the majority in congress. The neglect military spending, while Dictator Uno catches up with the US. Military technology in the US stagnates staying at 2004 levels, while the country of Dictator Uno catches up. The only thing that improves much on both sides are missile defense. This takes out much of the bite out of each country's offensive missiles. There is some bite left over to cause havok and bring on a Twilight 2000 scenario. I don't know which country Dictator Uno is running, you take your pick, the important thing is there needs to be a "bad Guy" country with a military at rough parity with US forces. Effectively the military of 2014 USA is the same as it is today, they've been so kind with their liberal policies as to let the dictator catch up, it been known to happen.
 
Realizing that I'm stepping into this discussion very late in the game... a different viewpoint.

TW2K Ver 1, Ver 2 and Ver 2.2 shared one common problem... the real world caught and superseded the near future timeline too fast...

I would suggest an entirely different approach. Same endgame with little detailed description of the timeline... the PC's are by and large simply troops doing a job, not grand strategists. How many in the E1-E6 range or O1-O4 range in Iraq right now could really articulate (or care) about the political machinations that got them there?

Lay simple foundations for a developing World Wide conflict that escalates into the wet firecracker use of WMD and results in the required endgame.

I would suggest including one or two alternative backstories as well. An obvious tie would be a Morrow Project type of post-Apocalypse survivors exploring and trying to rebuild. I'd drop the time travel nonsense from MP (why couldn't Mr. Morrow prevent the apocalypse with his time travel capabilities?) and replace it with US, UK, EU, {or your desired Government of choice} creates a Phoenix program of suspended animation teams to reinforce and rebuild in the event of an Apocalyptic event...

Food for thought
 
Tom - Great stuff. And you hit my point as to why China could become an antagonist. Heck they could still call communism since its an oligarchy the transition would be easy. Don't know that you need them as powerful as present day USA. But antagonists on many fronts solves a lot of that tough USA problem. And it assures that minor modifications can be added to the timeline so that changes can be incorporated.

Eamon - By jove I think you've got it. There were some very dumb things in the Twilight US modules. I just decided to point out that not everything was without thought. The original structure had significant thought. Since I helped playtest some and wrote a module, I thought I had a bit to share.

Heckmac - We covered some of this earlier but thanks for joining and adding detail to one of our directions...remember it all needs to end up in Traveller 2300. But your right. We want to estimate the amount of years to do it without saying what they are.

Savage
 
What about the movie "Deep Impact"? That gives me an idea for an appocalypse. Astronomers detect an asteroid or a comet bearing down on Earth. There is not enough time to stop it, but there is time to save some of humanity by stockpiling food, and equipment to save some of humanity by storing it and the people in specially constructed underground bunkers. Those people chosen number 1 million and there is enough food and supplies to keep them alive for ten years for the duration of the post impact "nuclear winter". Other countries are busy building their underground bunkers etc. and slecting people they can save with their limited resources. In the movie "Deep Impact" the main comet was diverted, but what if it wasn't? Its more likely that given a years warning about an immenent impact we wouldn't be able to stop it. Our technology isn't good enough. Its more likely that we'll just be able to prepare for the impact rather than stop it. People are chosen by lottery or talent to survive. Only so many underground bunkers can be built in time, and only so much food can be harvested for one year that will be enough to feed only a limited number of people for 10 years so that the dust has time to settle and people will be able to live on the surface again.
No doubt there would be chaos just prior to impact. After the impact people may try to break into the bunkers and steal some food. Unpleasant things begin to happen.
Ten years later its a different world. The Earth is mostly barren, the skies are clearing up and the survivors are coming out of their bunkers. The nations that once existed exist no more. The survivors establish their own nations and the Earth's population is only one hundreth of what it once was. All the dying has hardened people and society, people have had to resort to killing in order to survive and it has made some people and societies quite savage. Sometimes wars breakout over limited resources. The Earth is a cold place, though the tropics are temperate and food can be grown there. the skies appear a dusty red in many places with patches of blue in certain locations. The recover is not yet complete. It may be 2013, but the technology is that of today, the political context in which its used is different however. How's that for a Twilight 2000 setting?
 
The major problem w T2K is that we haved lived though the time and know what is plausible or not.
In 1985 we thought the Russian army was as good as they were in 1945. The French at least had fear of a united Germany.
We then try to cram a lot of polical and social changes into a very short time.
Perhaps it would be better to start our alternate histories from a point 50 or 100 years in past.
Here are two possibilities.

The Influenza epidemic of 1918 happens in 1913/1914.
The Russian Emperorer had proposed an halt to the mobilization of the armies and the start of peace talks. But the German Chief of the General Staff refused since it would disrupt the trains.
When the plague starts the mobilization would have to stop. You could not start a war without knowing how many soldiers you have. Plus war fever had spread among the civilian population of the belligents. With so many people sick or dying the support for a war would die out.
People would most likely demand a peace agreement that would reduce the possibilty of war.
The Congress of 1915 like the Congress of 1815 would redraw the boundries of Europe.
Alsca-Lorrine would become a self-governing neutral state.
Poland without Danzig would be created as a border state.
The Balkan would be forced into peace or face fighting the rest of Europe.
While fighting would cease in Europe the colonies would still be up for grabs.
The results:
Most European Monarchies would survive.
You could play a modern colonial game.
After 70 years of peace in Europe would then start T2K using any combination of weapons or alliances you want.
Second scenario:
Stalin dies in 1942.
The war ends as it did with few changes.
Without Stalin's terror the Russian government becomes more friendly and co-opertive. They agree to a joint occupation of Germany lasting to 1954.
The Russian military officers and civilian administrators con see the superiorty of the western system over the communist. They go home and start to encourage the party leadership to begin reforms. A friendly Soviet might receive aid under the Marshall Plan speeding their recovery from WW2. With the Soviet Union still willing to think of themselves as allies there would no need to from alliances such as NATO or SEATO. Without the support of the USSR the communist movements around the world would be weaker.
The US and USSR consider themselves at peace and only build 20-30 nuclear bombs.
China might be divided into communist/noncommunist/warlord areas.
Vietnam could still have a war going on.
Russia by the start of the T2K could be equal to the US in economic wealth and technology.
A united Germany could be caught in a civil war between the communist and noncommunist factions.
A Russion army going to support the german communists tries to force itself though the western aligned Poland. Thereby starting WW3.
 
Tom a Morrow project version would be good fun but I suggest that we have many underground missile silos that could be converted.

Ellos - I'm a shadowrun fan. Shooting dragons with machine guns is fun but don't try to negotiate.

Eamon - Isn't that kinda Red Alert? Well there is no reason not to have several alternate universes. A
End of the World, Different History, Modern Fantasy, etc....

Savage
 
Originally posted by Ellros:
Larry Bond's "Cauldron" would make a good background start for some of Uncle Bob's ideas. France and Germany form an economic union and virtually force the rest of Europe to join.
Hmm. Interesting. OTOH, if I were to grab a current novel, I'd probably pick Harold Coyle's "The Ten Thousand" (a retelling of Xenophon's "Ten Thousand" that is really quite good.). It's just off the wall enough for RPGer's and just plausable enough to work.

William
 
Isn't Red Alert that video game, I have never played it. It might be an interesting game if you based your T2K pc's on characters from Rainbow 6 and the sequals. I wonder what the conversion charts would be like. After all some of situations from Desert Seige or Island Thunder have the feel of a T2K mission.
 
Originally posted by hunter:
[QB] Anyone interested? We're basically considering a Twilight 2000 campaign supplement based on the T20 rules in the Traveller's Handbook.

I had talked to MJD through the authors call and would enjoy the project.

The timeline needs a little reworking. For my home game I simply updated the current history and set the final battle to 2020. I updated the equipment list as well based on current weapon systems. Its has been working out pretty good.

The T20 provide an excellent foundation for recreating T2K, the character creation process is great. While D20Modern provides a good set of rules I perfer the T20 my own self.

Anyway, for those gamers who prefer bullets to swords T2K is a great system. How it plays out I am looking forward to it.
 
Originally posted by Greylond:
What I don't understand is Why use d20?

I hate it myself and won't be buying any product for it.


Greylond
Well, I guess I would simply have to say that you are not the target market. The idea behind _any_ d20 conversion is to introduce a setting or a genre to those people who currently only play DnD3 (aka d20). If you dislike the d20 system, hey, that's cool. You can go to www.farfuture.net and get version 1.0 of the original game _right now_.

OTOH, there are a very large number of d20 players, some of whom were not _born_ when "Twilight: 2000" shipped. They deserve a chance to at least get to know the setting. Something else will need to determine what happens after that...
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William
 
The two conversions of the orginal Twilight game moved from a d10 base to an almost d20 style. I suspect that chosing D20 for the games platform rests in the fact that it would be the most cost effective means to bringing it out under a new company.

I have played the last T2K version, 2.2, for many years. As the D20 line as grown in popularity it became easier to teach new players under the rules they where familiar with. I game with Several HS clubs on up through the old timers club. Williams remark is a good one. Try the origanal from far future. I have ordered it to add to my collection of T2K.

If you are interested in a dark, near future campaign of survival in a foriegn lan without the fantasy elements thrown in, I think you will enjoy T2K.

Enjoy!
 
Try it?

Heck I ran the orginal Twilight. Started playing it in late '85. I ran games for over 5 years. Everywhere I went in the Navy, it was a very popular game. I bought 2.0 when it first came out. In fact I still have an early printing with the U.S. Navy ranks all screwed up. I mean really, Bo'sun as a rank? ;)

Mostly I liked the 2.2 version, the only thing that I found that I preferred about the old system was the character creation system. I just think this whole d20 thing isn't good. Part of the charm of any system is the System. The old Twilight, versions 1 and 2, had some very unique game mechanics that I feel would be ruined converting it over to d20. I never had a problem getting people to play or learn and over 90% of my players over the years I had to teach the system as well as Gamemaster it.

Any, just my 2 cents. I will say that if new supplements are made, it would be nice if there was an appendix with old system stats for all of the NPCs and equipment.

Also, another system weakness I noticed in the past was lack of research when it came to U.S. Navy information. For example, whoever did the research for Satellite Down didn't seem to really know hardly anything about the Navy except for looking up some info in Jane's. And also, this time it would help if characters who were members of the Navy SEALs actually had the SCUBA skill. :rolleyes:


Greylond
 
I think the hardest part of converting T2K to the D20 system would be the vehicles. The orginal rules for vehciles in T2K were actually simple to learn and use. Some people seemed to think they were too complicated because there was a different chart for each vehicle. In reality I found them simple to learn and not that complicated. It only took a few pages to explane how to conduct vehicle combat.
I think that the problem with complicated vehicle rules, is most people want the rules to include the information need to construct their own vehicles. This was never possible with the orginal rules, and for the most part I don't feel they are necessary.
To keep the T2K feeling the vehicle rulles should be simple and almost have a war game-like feel to them. This would also keep down the number of pages that would need to be dedicated to vehicle rules. I would not be all that upset if it was as simple as a vehciale having an attack value for its weapons, an over all defensive value fir its armor, and limited combat results. Such as the traditional war game results of Movemnt Kill (vehicle can no longer move) Fire Kill (main gun knocked out) and K-kill (vehicle blows up). The thing I think they should be trying for is to keep the fast and furious feeling of the modern battle field.
It shouldn't be harder to keep track of your vehicle than your character!
 
The Vechile system was one of the things I loved about the old system(ver 1). We wrote/drew out a Vechile sheet that was modified from the orignal system and Car Wars. We even modified several a la Mad Max movies style.

The damage system was very easy once you got past the information overload. Of course, once I got experienced with it, I realized that there were some instances in which you didn't bother with the charts at all(i.e. a BDRM takes a direct hit from a 120mm Tank Gun!).


Greylond
 
I dont remember for sure when I first played T2K but it was '84 or early '85, (Ya, I'm an old timer too) I was in Guam with the Air Force and one of our players was PO2. We had a Marine Lt and an Army recruiter as well. There where times when we all laughed over the games handling of military aspects. Oh well. Its still the best game out there I believe.

The ranks were pretty odd for sure.

I liked the vehicle charts as well. It made it real easy to keep track of fuel and travel distances. Converting them to a T20 format isn't all that tough since the T20 vehicle rules are pretty good in themselfs.

I find it interesting the number of miltary members who hold T2K as their favorite game. I suppose it's due to the GM's and players being able to really see and understand the game world. I always found it frustrating to play under a GM who lacked a military background.

You all experience the same thing in your games?
 
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