UWPs in the Trojan Reach

[NightRaven]

I'm don't know a lot about UWPs, sectors and subsectors, but, Drianx just doesn't seem right for me!

I mean, it's A43645A-E, but does it really have an A-class starport? What does really represent TL? I thought it was about the ability to produce goods of any kind at that given level, but Drinax doesn't seem able to create anything!

Wouldn't it be better a C or D starport and a much lower TL? Why is the Palace the focus of the UWP instead of the Vespexers?

In a related issue (for me, of course), wouldn't you say that Trojan Reach has too many high TL systems for what it is? I'm thinking of Spinward Marches, with just a bunch of systems about highers than stellar.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I mean, it's A43645A-E, but does it really have an A-class starport? What does really represent TL? I thought it was about the ability to produce goods of any kind at that given level, but Drinax doesn't seem able to create anything!

It doesn't have the capacity to crank out squadrons of destroyers, as you might think of another Class A but it can, in theory, do the work on one ship to qualify (which will be useful to players in the Drinax campaigns).

As for TLs themselves, they cover a broad range of descriptions - they have to, it is a big galaxy.

In the case of Drinax, it is the prevailing (and likely unsustainable, unless the Drinax campaign really pushes things along) tech that the residents enjoy right now. Take another survey in 100 years and it will likely be very different.

Wouldn't it be better a C or D starport and a much lower TL? Why is the Palace the focus of the UWP instead of the Vespexers?

Because King Oleb shouts louder than the Vespexers. Or, to put it another way, the palace is the legitimate government on the planet while the Vespexers are pretty much ignored from a galactic point of view.

If they rise up and sack the palace, the UWP would shift to reflect that.

Again, if you look at descriptions of other systems across Charted Space, it is not all that unusual for an oppressed/disadvantaged population to be completely ignored by the UWP. Once you get beyond the Size and Atmosphere codes, UWPs become less of an absolute (although, should be said, even Atmosphere codes can change across a world's surface, especially when you get to extremes of gravity).

In a related issue (for me, of course), wouldn't you say that Trojan Reach has too many high TL systems for what it is? I'm thinking of Spinward Marches, with just a bunch of systems about highers than stellar.

The Reach is the badlands, sure, but there are a lot of powerful parties with interests in it - the Hierate, Imperium and GeDeCo to name three.

Remember, the Reach as it stands right now is just a snapshot in time and things are always in motion. If you read between the lines in some of the system descriptions you will see there is a lot of development going on in some systems that is somewhat... artificial, if you see what I mean.

Hope that all helps!

 

[NightRaven]

Thanks for your answers, but my doubts are still there.

It doesn't have the capacity to crank out squadrons of destroyers, as you might think of another Class A but it can, in theory, do the work on one ship to qualify (which will be useful to players in the Drinax campaigns).

From MGP Starports:

In order to achieve the accolade of Class A status, a Starport must include both a Highport and Downport, [...]

Which, for me, disqualifies Drinax as a Class A. I mean, we're talking about giving a big parking lot the same label as the Rhylanor Starport, right? And it doesn't match the description for a Class B neither, «Hundreds of landing pads» is what the book sets as a minimum.

It's like the sector would have been designed only as an excuse for the campaign!

In the case of Drinax, it is the prevailing (and likely unsustainable, unless the Drinax campaign really pushes things along) tech that the residents enjoy right now. Take another survey in 100 years and it will likely be very different.

This is what I find most annoying. I understand that higher classes, richest portions of society can enjoy up to 2 TL higher than their fellow citizens. Giving the system TL of E seems too much. When was the last survey? 1068? I mean, they've been selling silverware for 200 years? I apply some degree of suspension of disbelief, obviously, but me and my players need some anchor to credibility.

Because King Oleb shouts louder than the Vespexers. Or, to put it another way, the palace is the legitimate government on the planet while the Vespexers are pretty much ignored from a galactic point of view.

That make sense. Now it seems I didn't give it too much of a tought...

The Reach is the badlands, sure, but there are a lot of powerful parties with interests in it - the Hierate, Imperium and GeDeCo to name three.

This is one of those things that doesn't click with me. I mean, there are much bigger things going on in the Marches, bigger players and higher bids! Also, there's no relationship between having a high TL in a system with having large parties with interest in the zone. With that in mind, lots of Middle East countries would be in a very different state of development. Don't you think?

As I said, thank your for your answers, and mind my English. It's not my first language and I could sound angry, or harsh, or anything like that when I don't intend to!

 

[tjoneslo]

Thanks for your answers, but my doubts are still there.

From MGP Starports:


Which, for me, disqualifies Drinax as a Class A. I mean, we're talking about giving a big parking lot the same label as the Rhylanor Starport, right? And it doesn't match the description for a Class B neither, «Hundreds of landing pads» is what the book sets as a minimum.

One of the things adopted by MGT from every earlier version of Traveller is the port code does not reflect the size of the port. Only the services available.

Drinax is not the only Class A port with a few people in the system. The best ones are trying to explain how a world with a population of a small family still manage to support a Class A port. Do they actually build starships, or just have the capability to do so, but really, ordering one will take an extraordinary amount of time before you can take delivery.

I've done trade analysis (the results are in the Traveller Wiki if you're interested) that determine the size of the port (not just the capabilities), and find ports which require more people to operate the port than live in the system.

The requirement of a Class A and Class B ports to have both a high port or down port is not an absolute. You can have worlds where there is only one or the other, usually due to conditions in the system.

If your main world has a insidious atmosphere (think Venus), it may well not have a Downport, as the only ships that can land there require special sealing.

If your star has a problem with flares, the EM Pulses may make keeping an orbital port working correctly, but the system may have a good downport, protected under the atmosphere (and ground) of the main world.

 

[kilemall]

Don't treat the rules as some absolute reality, and use the UWP as a takeoff point for creating story and conflict.



Maybe the sovereign bribed the authorities or has an in or patron that keeps the TL rating up for appearances and what little trade can be lured in.


Maybe the ruler has been deficit spending/financing to keep up that TL and starship build capability, those bonds paying for it are coming due and the King is frantic to stay one step ahead of the fiscal megacorps that are coming for him- or you sign on with the mercs coming to collect.


Maybe there is a specialized custom yacht builder that is also servicing the starport franchise, with side action all about that company.


Don't forget robots- in fact, that's why they have to keep that TL up else the TL E robots break down and the whole economy comes crashing down without them.


UWP is not a straitjacket, it's an invitation and challenge to create something new.

 

[NightRaven]

One of the things adopted by MGT from every earlier version of Traveller is the port code does not reflect the size of the port. Only the services available.

I appreciate your answer, but Drinax lacks a shipyard. Do you still think it qualifies as Class A? I mean, where do you (not you you; you them ) draw the line?

I've done trade analysis (the results are in the Traveller Wiki if you're interested) that determine the size of the port (not just the capabilities), and find ports which require more people to operate the port than live in the system.

How can I find that information in the wiki?

Don't treat the rules as some absolute reality, and use the UWP as a takeoff point for creating story and conflict.
[...]
UWP is not a straitjacket, it's an invitation and challenge to create something new.

I think I strongly disagree with this, kilemall. If I was running a game lighter on the rules side, or without links between the subsystems and the data, I'd understand your advice. But, if I don't take UWP seriously, what can I do with a trade system based on modifiers extracted from the date in the UWP?

If Drinax doesn't have a real TL-14, the system shouldn't have the Ht trade code and, in that case, the roll for equipment availability (from CSC p.4) would be different. The list of trade goods could not reflect things like Advanced Weapons or Vehicles!

I know I'm stubborn as a mule, but it doesn't mean I can't change my point of view. It's just that I cannot see Drinax as anything but a plot device, forced into the universe to justify "a" story.

This is just me asking why are things like they are. I know I could just modify the UWP, tell my players that those are the changes from the latest survey and the campaign wouldn't change a bit. What I'm looking for it's a rationale behind these numbers, codes, etc.

If I didn't say it before, thanks to all of you for your answers and the time you took to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[tjoneslo]

I appreciate your answer, but Drinax lacks a shipyard. Do you still think it qualifies as Class A? I mean, where do you (not you you; you them ) draw the line?

I have not read the Drinax book, so I'm not sure how much I'm trying to retcon or explain is missing from the descriptions and maps of the world. But as you point out, Drinax does not have the population to support a significant shipyard, or really anything much of one. So the shipyard won't be a very big place.

How can I find that information in the wiki?

If you go to the Sector article, and look for the green background in the right hand infobox. There is a link to a Trade Map and the detailed economic information.

The map key explains all the parts of both pages.

 

[NightRaven]

Wow! I really need to read that!! What did you use to generate the numbres? G:FT?

The starport A is what used to be King Oleb private landing pad in his floating palace. Which have the population of Monaco, but crammed (the palace, not the starport). In the map of the palace (without scale) the landing pad appears to be something around 1/6th of the whole structure.

 

[whartung]

All of the starport employees are imported labor and not counted in the census since they're not citizens. It's a whole second class society thing going on there that no one talks about.

...or something.

 

[Condottiere]

The Imperium has standards.

Not necessarily anyone else, or theirs differ.

 

[tjoneslo]

Wow! I really need to read that!! What did you use to generate the numbres? G:FT?

Yes, GT:Far Trader, plus several other rules, using all the sectors in Traveller Map to generate trade data across all of charted space.

The starport A is what used to be King Oleb private landing pad in his floating palace. Which have the population of Monaco, but crammed (the palace, not the starport). In the map of the palace (without scale) the landing pad appears to be something around 1/6th of the whole structure.

They are building or fixing one ship at a time. Technically you only need to be able to fix or build a starship, which includes the jump drive. This requires access to parts and a place to work. A class B port can be equally small, but just lacks the ability / desire to work on Jump Drives.

 

[kilemall]

Well, I have a bit of a different view. TL to me isn't what tech you make there, just what you can support/maintain. A Non-IND almost by definition can't make a broad range of products, more like they can pay for them and have the local infrastructure to repair and use.


My go-to example for this is 19th century Nevada after the various gold and silver mines came in. They were out in the middle of the Wild West, but had luxuries and technology such as it was shipped in that were equivalent or the envy of posh estates and European capitals.

Then, the mines played out and the party was over, leaving glorious relics and possibly some people floating the 'good old days', but eventually economic reality would set in and they would go to being a rural mining town with a glorious past.


So you could still buy and sell like it's TL E, planet is just not going to support it for much longer since the population has dropped so precipitously.

Makers could be ubiquitous from the good ol days, at TL E almost anything is ultrareliable so a small percentage of them could have survived and kept up parts streams and small items.

 

[NightRaven]

Ok, ok. I have to agree with you. Now, I only have to make amends with these ideas and my previous thoughts. But you're right, I can see your point and tjoneslo's.

:coffeegulp:

Thanks!!

 

[Dagrill]

I mean, it's A43645A-E, but does it really have an A-class starport? What does really represent TL? I thought it was about the ability to produce goods of any kind at that given level, but Drinax doesn't seem able to create anything!
Wouldn't it be better a C or D starport and a much lower TL? Why is the Palace the focus of the UWP instead of the Vespexers?

Hi,

I was looking at this in conjunction with T4 pocket empires and the traveller sector map /make booklet, with a view to setting up my own pocket empire of Drinax.

The infrastructure of 4 can not support TL above 9, so with out high tech imports would fall dramatically.

I am still puzzling over whether to create the floating palace as a Grav Vehicle, or a space station. Either way it needs to fit in a minimum 25,000 ton jump capable shipyard for class A starport designation, as well as a similar tonnage of shops/business', oh and there's the docking requirement, but that could be external.

I would suggest a class B starport would better fit the PoD campaign, as it seems to only handle repair work and would dramatically reduce the size of the floating palace.

The Vespexers are dependant on the Floating Palace for hi-tech goods, I think of them as hardy pioneer types that look down of the effete Drinaxi, but no reason they can't use their mutant mind powers to take over the place.....

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

If Drinax doesn't have a real TL-14, the system shouldn't have the Ht trade code and, in that case, the roll for equipment availability (from CSC p.4) would be different. The list of trade goods could not reflect things like Advanced Weapons or Vehicles!

Hi,

Don't forget the Vespexers are trawling through the blasted cities recovering Hi Tech goods for barter with the Drinaxi. They may even have either set up or have access to a still working automated production line and are willing to barter goods to smugglers brave enough to face the risks.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Well, I have a bit of a different view. TL to me isn't what tech you make there, just what you can support/maintain. A Non-IND almost by definition can't make a broad range of products, more like they can pay for them and have the local infrastructure to repair and use.

Wow, brilliant example

Thanks

David

 

[Dagrill]

Floating Palace

Hi,

as an aside, I have created the Thearch's Palace in Pavabid as a 600 space/ 300 ton Heavy Grav Vehicle; extra space created by building at TL9/10 and taking 3
speed reductions to Slow and a crew/passenger space of 92.

I installed a TL10 Fusion Power Plant giving 100 years of operations. I gave the Thearch a Luxury stateroom and Fresher, and 6 Tech Priests Staterooms with the rest in bunks.

It was still a tight design with no space allocated for Helicopters on the basis they land on the flat roof.

So the Floating palace would need to be at least 400 times larger, with extra space required for a shipyard, commercial centre etc, oh and weapons.

Regards

David