General What is your most common food or drink in The Third Imperium?

[Commander Truestar]

It was interesting to learn that much of the Amazon Jungle of today was cultivated. It's not a large, virgin jungle by a longshot.

Not only that...
But, if you clear and "remediate" the Amazon, like the slash burners are doing now, the rain forest does not grow back
Back in the early 1900's, Mr. Ford tried to create a rubber tree farm and processing plant.

He paid to build what was essentially an American factory town there, so he could make his own tires and maintain a vertical monopoly making his cars. Sadly, for him, the South Americans he hired could not be "taught" American working culture. So, after several years, Ford shut down the project.

If you go back to that town "today", and yes....I can show you pictures, "None" of that town has been over-grown.
The rain forest has not reclaimed the land after 100 years sitting abandoned.

 

[casquilho]

Not only that...
But, if you clear and "remediate" the Amazon, like the slash burners are doing now, the rain forest does not grow back
Back in the early 1900's, Mr. Ford tried to create a rubber tree farm and processing plant.

He paid to build what was essentially an American factory town there, so he could make his own tires and maintain a vertical monopoly making his cars. Sadly, for him, the South Americans he hired could not be "taught" American working culture. So, after several years, Ford shut down the project.

If you go back to that town "today", and yes....I can show you pictures, "None" of that town has been over-grown.
The rain forest has not reclaimed the land after 100 years sitting abandoned.

I had not heard of this until today. What a sad tale of stupidity and arrogance. The various articles I read said they knew nothing of growing rubber trees and failed to hire anyone who did. The project deserved to fail. I did find it interesting that some people still live there now. But the one article said they do not have many services. So I wonder how harsh life is there now.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, it was fun reading about it and seeing pictures etcetera.

 

[Commander Truestar]

I had not heard of this until today. What a sad tale of stupidity and arrogance. The various articles I read said they knew nothing of growing rubber trees and failed to hire anyone who did. The project deserved to fail. I did find it interesting that some people still live there now. But the one article said they do not have many services. So I wonder how harsh life is there now.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, it was fun reading about it and seeing pictures etcetera.

I should set up a share some time to show "my pictures".
In the end, the real failure was trying to force the local population into a "9 to 5" work day schedule.
The "management" knew what they were doing and expected the locals to learn their jobs.
But, like people in Mexico and other nations, they take breaks during the hottest hours of the day.....and the Ford management idiots could not understand that. So, there was constant and ridiculous conflict until the entire enterprise collapsed.

Some years back, my wife and I had a chance to visit the site - hence our pictures.
It's an incredibly sad site

 

[kilemall]

They could....
If the world had enough arable land to start with.
And, if they had enough supplies to feed the population for the decades, or centuries, it would take to convert a hostile alien terrain to Earth-like soil.

I can see you want this, and will grasp at whatever you find while ignoring the costs, time spans, etc...

In the end, it is your Traveller Universe
If you want to ignore the realities, go for it.

I live in a community where large tracts of land have been rendered unsafe thanks to the manufacturing of the late 1800 ad early 1900's.
If it will take us centuries to recover what is "Earth Class" soil.....It will easily take many centuries to convert camp site after camp site until you create a single field of usable soil...
.....And then, you have to keep fertilizing it after two or so seasons.....which farmers on Earth have to do.....and that "IS" Earth soil.

You can chose to ignore the science where a colony is concerned, but the science is still there

You seem to jump to conclusions about my posts or world building that aren’t there in intent or content.

The point is that soil is malleable and can be improved, was done successfully at very low tech levels, and does not require mass hauling interstellar distances and costs.

I did not post on all the practical difficulties doing so, just the point that it could be done in place without bulk shipping.

Now then, a reasonable question is if classic field agriculture would be desirable anyway. Takes a lot of land and water, most Traveller worlds are smaller than Earth, and most will arguably have a hostile environment, competing biomes if nothing else.

I would tend to make that a possibility with trade code Ag planets and definitely not NonAg.

Assuming an Ag environment, there is still going to be a lot of work to prep soils. Depending on the tech level we’re talking decades if not centuries for lower techs.

My presumption would be that this time frame reduces with higher tech, and that genetic engineering would be a major element- for the microbiology, the earthworms, the crops themselves, and surviving what the local life forms do.

The self regeneration nature of Terra Preta or functional equivalents helps make this a worthwhile investment, reducing the need for fertilizer or mineral replacement.

In addition I would assume genetic engineering would create advanced production including greater yield and faster growth allowing for multiple crops per year. Or chemicals like Medical Slow except for plants. This tech alone could reduce total acreage needed by a lot.

Now then something like hydroponics or some analogue artificial soil locally produced under domes or other protected areas are likely for initial colonization, or very hostile non-ag/belter facilities long term. Investing in soil would be quirky, religious or perhaps luxury items.

 

[whartung]

The point is that soil is malleable and can be improved, was done successfully at very low tech levels, and does not require mass hauling interstellar distances and costs.

It also, pretty much de facto, has to be a routine and efficient process.

The odds of drag and drop bio-compatibility are, not that we know, unlikely.

But without it, the galaxy would not be populated as it is. It would simply be too much work, all the time, if the locals could not efficiently grow food in the ground.

 

[Dragoner]

Considering that implies the jungle overgrew the uncultivated land rather rapidly, if you're not growing a specialized crop, you could get sustained vegetation on uncared for ground.

Same as here in the Great Mississippi Basin, untended houses and land are quickly overgrown in a few years.

 

[Condottiere]

To be fair, we've lost entire cities that way.

If I recall correctly, without needing to look it up, I think it was aerial topography that discovered irrigation canal patterns.

 

[Dragoner]

We still find places like ww2 airfields because we used to use persistant defoliants like agent orange, as well as soaking the soil with diesel to keep the dust down.

 

[Commander Truestar]

@Dragoner , @Condottiere @whartung and @kilemall
One thing all your examples have in common is that they are all examples of "Terra-normal" soil.

And, @kilemall, I am not "jumping to conclusions".
I am also not "Cherry Picking". For example, just because nitrogen exists "somewhere", it doesn't mean you can enhance local soil with it. It may not exist in "excess amounts" within the local few parsecs. So, you DO need a number of things to exist:
1) Interstellar cargo craft
2) A trade agreement with the source world
3) A terraforming project

I agree to all your points to the extent you offer them.
But, you are cherry picking

And while lower tech societies "on Terra" can improve the soil successfully, that is because it is "on Terra", and all the ingredients are there
And, mass hauling HAS been required. Consider the massive works done in Giza(Egypt) or Salisbury Plain(England). Again, Cherry Picking.
Especially Giza. I worked on a project there with Dr. Hawass two years ago.

In the case of world building, you need things that simply don't exist in locations where Terra-normal DNA and minerals don't exist
So you "Do" need interstellar distances and costs.

 

[Dragoner]

Science wise, isomerism, different rotamer libraries, etc. will mean that life might never be able to cross from world to world. The potatoes grown in the Martian are likely a fantasy, made up to tell a story.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Science wise, isomerism, different rotamer libraries, etc. will mean that life might never be able to cross from world to world. The potatoes grown in the Martian are likely a fantasy, made up to tell a story.

Our archeology, to date, also reminds us that "scale" is an issue.
Where you refer to "The Martian", that was a population of one,

And, where the character Watley was able to grow a single-plant type crop and even recover the grown produce after the atmo-blow out,
Even that, based on the well done math of Andy Weir, was not enough to get him past a "starvation-level" diet....
....for one man.

And, "all the minerals needed" to turn Martian soil were gained by "fertilizing it with the waste of an entire team...to get less than comfortable output or one person.

So, scale is yet another items that needs to be investigated before one can suggest a colony can world build on any scale that is survivable, much less enough to grow a society and target future trade.

As for archeology, I can provide some of my avocational work in Egypt and Peru.

 

[kilemall]

@Dragoner , @Condottiere @whartung and @kilemall
One thing all your examples have in common is that they are all examples of "Terra-normal" soil.

And, @kilemall, I am not "jumping to conclusions".
I am also not "Cherry Picking". For example, just because nitrogen exists "somewhere", it doesn't mean you can enhance local soil with it. It may not exist in "excess amounts" within the local few parsecs. So, you DO need a number of things to exist:
1) Interstellar cargo craft
2) A trade agreement with the source world
3) A terraforming project

I agree to all your points to the extent you offer them.
But, you are cherry picking

And while lower tech societies "on Terra" can improve the soil successfully, that is because it is "on Terra", and all the ingredients are there
And, mass hauling HAS been required. Consider the massive works done in Giza(Egypt) or Salisbury Plain(England). Again, Cherry Picking.
Especially Giza. I worked on a project there with Dr. Hawass two years ago.

In the case of world building, you need things that simply don't exist in locations where Terra-normal DNA and minerals don't exist
So you "Do" need interstellar distances and costs.

Without getting into a point by point refutation, this is where genetic engineering comes into play. Doesn’t have to be chlorophyll and specific mixes of minerals or nitrogen. By the time we have been out there and had real comparative biological system study, we will have seen life that has evolved in different ways and templates to work from.

Could be proper Terran plants and animals just aren’t sustainable on 95% of worlds- perhaps the majority of food is local sourced modified to be digestible, or post-processed into usable form.

Will you have to ship in initial microbiology, GM seed facilities, possibly a full bore hydroponics or vat meat set up? Sure. Maybe a lot of it, increasing costs.

Even the artificial Terra preta soil prep outfits will involve a lot of soil churn machinery, biochar feedstock/processing, shard analogues and such.

But I just don’t see 20 billion tons of dirt getting shipped in. It’s going to have to be some sort of local resource element just because of the economics. That may be the spacer kit in many cases.

 

[bookwyrm]

I was just thinking, until we do the tests and experiments of terraforming on another world like the Moon, Mars, or (pick a world in Traveller orbiting another star), it will all be conjecturous sci-fi that is discussed in places like CotI.

So when it comes to the OP, our imagination is the limit for interstellar foods in any of our OTU or MTU games until we learn the truth about the possibilities of delicious (or at least edible) food for the hungry Traveller.

 

[Badenov]

I was just thinking, until we do the tests and experiments of terraforming on another world like the Moon, Mars, or (pick a world in Traveller orbiting another star), it will all be conjecturous sci-fi that is discussed in places like CotI.

So when it comes to the OP, our imagination is the limit for interstellar foods in any of our OTU or MTU games until we learn the truth about the possibilities of delicious (or at least edible) food for the hungry Traveller.

Now I'm imagining a Traveller campaign where the players have crashlanded on a planet and need to find safe and healthy things to eat. Sort of a Space Opera remake of Delicious in Dungeon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delicious_in_Dungeon

 

[Dragoner]

Even that, based on the well done math of Andy Weir ...

He said based on the perchlorates, it wasn't possible, just made it up for the story.

 

[Dragoner]

Though it answers the Fermi Paradox perfectly, same as we're trapped in our planetary biome, swimming in a biochemical "soup"; so are the rest of the anyone else out there. I love science fiction, the idea of exploring other worlds, it isn't supported by science, however.

 

[Krikkitone]

The biology/biochemistry of the native flora/fauna is irrelevant to growing Terran plants as they synthesise everything directly from minerals; assuming the soil contains all the minerals they need, the only concern would be pollination which may need to be done by hand (human or robotic). Whilst that might be more labour intensive, the additional cost is likely to be offset by increased harvest from the lack of disease and not being eaten by local fauna. So, coffee and tea (along with other favourite Terran plants) growing are likely to have followed the Solomani diaspora to every planet where the climate is suitable for growing them.

It's a different case for Terran animals which may not be able to consume the local flora/fauna.

Side IRL Note: most plants need varying degrees of symbiotic root organisms.
Even ignoring pollination most Earth plants would not thrive in either
sterile (no other life in the soil)
or
incompatible (other life in the soil that is either hostile or just gets in the way)

That said, there are ways Humans could probably transplant some of the supporting organisms/breed the plants to survive better under those conditions*/etc. or even modify some local to a good approximation

*whether in a space station or on a new world

The likelyhood of coffee still being the same drink in 500 or 5000 years likely depends more on cultural changes than technobiological ones. But if you want, those technobiological hurdles Are potentially there.


For worlds with Life Elements aren't going to be the problem, the native life will have the Phosphorous, Iron, Nitrogen, etc (if it is a 2-9 Atm world).
You might have to torch the native life to get at those elements..... but that is often done today ..... Kill everything in the field until its all dead organic matter, then seed it with the necessary microbes. Non Terran might just need a little more burning to crack open the organics

 

[Condottiere]

Temporarily, initially, assuming breathable atmosphere, find a meteor crater in a suitable climate, and start processing the soil into something fertile.

That, probably, would be the most economic way.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Without getting into a point by point refutation, this is where genetic engineering comes into play. Doesn’t have to be chlorophyll and specific mixes of minerals or nitrogen. By the time we have been out there and had real comparative biological system study, we will have seen life that has evolved in different ways and templates to work from.

So,
One of your suggestions is to plant a few thousand, or perhaps a million or so colonists...
....and devote a significant force to "Starting off" by building, then operating a bio-chem genome plant on a scale massive enough to create the ouput needed to plant the fields needed to feed all those people.

Meaning any actual agro-work would have to be delayed until the science staff did their work, and succeeded in bonding Terran plant and mineral-use cellular structures to native plant-life?

So, how long are the planted colonists expected to survive on boxed rations until they can hope to begin working toward sustainability?

Saying "they'll just genegeneer it" does not happen "tomorrow". And colonists have to get up and running fairly quickly, or the colony fails.

Simple answers are like hobbits taking short cuts.
And, sadly, when you finally realize that "simple answer" you throw out will not work, there are populations on a planet that can't support them.
And, you also realize you can't suddenly pull a Dunkirk and re-route merchant and naval ships to help them.

In fact, given the communications shadow, it is likely people will start dying well before initial responses can reach the world. Logistics is a bitch when you realize your "easy answer based on guessed at future tech" fails

 

[Commander Truestar]

He said based on the perchlorates, it wasn't possible, just made it up for the story.

He did, and he was right on that and a number of conditions relating to Mars.
I recently had a conversation with some members of a current Mars Rover team regarding the chemical make up of "Martian dust."
It was based on the lyric, in the song "Somebody Will" which ran:
"....I can taste mars dust in the air..."

We discussed how many milliseconds it would take for the person tasting that dust to die from the inhalation.
In fact, one of the NASA/JPL folks wrote a 'response song' covering the likely death process.

But, Andy's math was still correct given the level of crop yield he wrote into his story.
So, my comment still stands