X-Boat Stations

[tjoneslo]

Spinward Marches.pdf

Let see if the link actually works.

This is a map of the Spinward marches. The green lines (and dots) are a proposed x-boat route based upon an algorithm:

1) Link all of the Depots, Scout Waystations, Sector and Subsector captials, and worlds with RU >= 10000 (the best I currently have for industrial centers).

2) Routes between these select for Scout bases, higher importance worlds, better star ports, and against red zone worlds, lower star ports.

Anyone have better ideas of how to draw these lines?

 

[Carlobrand]

The x-boat network was originally built to follow the already existing trade routes. One of the reasons it isn't a true jump 4 network is some worlds on the trade routes would have resisted becoming 2nd class communication routes. ...

o: Where in canon does it mention worlds resisting becoming 2nd class communication networks?

I look on the route map and I see some oddities. I do not see it following trade routes - these x-boat routes were made long before GURPS gave us actual examples of trade routes. I see a route running from Lanth to Ghandi to Dinom - as it must, there's no other route across that gap, but even GURPS doesn't show any significant trade among those worlds. I see a route running up from Boughene through little Pixie and then to Kinorb - but Pixie has almost no trade and a direct Boughene-to-Kinorb run would be a straight 3 parsecs. Duale, an A-port of tens of millions with active trade links with Maitz, gets a miss but neighboring B-port Hexos, a world of tens of thousands with a naval base, gets its own link - and yet Paya's naval base does not.

About the only thing I can say that's consistent is that the x-boat network connects most - but not all - naval bases and A/B ports, sometimes by way of a C port if there's no better path. There are some odd omissions. Grote, an A-port at a world with tens of thousands of people five parsecs from the nearest x-boat stop, has no x-boat link. Youghal gets bypassed in favor of Chamois and Thornnastor.

Imagine if the Imperium overruled local world/subsector economics. Powerful worlds within sub sectors may well set up their own communication networks and resist Imperial control of them. Before long the rumblings for greater autonomy and less taxes would follow. ...

That is, well, absurd. In the first place, we're having trouble detecting appreciable levels of taxation - the Imperial Navy seems much too small for the level of resources available. In the second place, the routes are already ignoring subsector economics - case in point Duale, noted above. In the third place, nobody needs to set up a communication network where there's active trade, if you're accepting freight hopping around at J3-J4 - the communications go out with the freight. In the fourth place, there is long and very clear precedent on what happens to worlds that try to usurp Imperial prerogatives and then start demanding greater autonomy, and however small the Imperial Navy might seem, it is quite large enough to maintain that precedent; one would do better to tattoo, "Please shoot me," to one's forehead.

... Dukes make their money from the taxes their sub sector worlds provide, plus dividends from megacorporation profits, plus whatever private income they have. ...

Where in canon does it say this? What good are those feifs and those dividends if the nobles have to tap the public coffers to pay for their toilet paper?

... If major trading worlds within a duchy are cut off from the x-boat network due to an 'upgrade' their trade will suffer. ...

Why? How does the lack of a 100 dT communications boat make your goods less attractive to your neighbors or their goods less attractive to you? How does that make the 3000 dT Tukera J4 trader less likely to make it's scheduled run, or make the companies that used it less likely to ship their wares? Where is there the slightest hint that the x-boat network has any influence on trade volume?

... Their taxes will have to be reduced - if not the worlds will quickly be asking why do we need the Imperium and their taxes at all if we are having to fund our own communication network. Everything that follows is human nature.

:file_28: No. Human nature is, "Hey, we've fought five wars out here, still recovering from the fifth, and the Vargr are just over the border and looking hungry. It's good to have the Imperium on our side." Nobody's going to chuck the Imperium and start paying tithes to Vargr warlords or accepting Zho thought treatments because an x-boat goes here instead of there.

 

[rancke]

It depends on what you mean by "efficient". For getting a message from Capital to Regina, J6 is the most efficient. But ensuring a message reaches every world in between? Based upon some of the generated maps, the high-population worlds are not evenly spread throughout the Imperium making route finding an interesting challenge.

But getting messages from Capital to Regina (or at least to Mora) and back again is logically the primary purpose of the X-boats. Orders from the Emperor to the dukes, reports from the dukes to the Emperor. Anything else is secondary. So that's exactly what I mean by "efficient".

You end up with either large holes (areas where no routes go anywhere near) because all the worlds are low-population back water planets. Or you have the routes going through the low population worlds in an attempt to make the network evenly spread.

If all the worlds are low-population, why would the Imperium care? And there's always the subsector capital, Like Lanth in Lanth.

It's not a question of either/or. If you use J6 to get messages to and from subsector capitals, other worlds can get them in one or at most two more jumps with subsidiary couriers.

My suggestion is: 1) Connect Capital to all sector capitals using the fewest number of jumps possible. If there is any slack, intermediate worlds can be selected according to their individual importance. For example, if the distance is 25 parsecs, it could by four J6 and one J1 or five J5 or any combination that adds up to five jumps.

2) Connect all sector capitals with the sector's subsector capitals using the fewest number of jumps possible. For example, Mora to Rhylanor would be two J6 links; from Rhylanor to Regina would be two J5 links.

3) Connect any important world that has been left out so far with the nearest X-boat route using the fewest number of jumps possible. In most cases that would be one jump, often of less than J6.

4) Throw in a few curious kinks if you can think of explanations for them.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The x-boat network was originally built to follow the already existing trade routes. One of the reasons it isn't a true jump 4 network is some worlds on the trade routes would have resisted becoming 2nd class communication routes.

The X-boat network was originally built to connect the Imperial core with the Imperial borders.

There's a canonical claim to the effect that the X-boats follow the trade routes and an IMO erroneous claim that having an X-boat link improves trade significantly.

There doesn't appear to be anything in canon I can find about attempts to upgrade the network to jump 5 when that became available.

There isn't. Which I submit is pretty strange, although as you know I've come up with a possible explanation.

The upgrade to a jump 6 network, while it has been mooted as Hans mentions, will face a lot of resistance to from those same trade hubs that resisted not being on the jump 4 network.

I think the main opposition will be from X-boat manufacturers. As you point out, there's no need to cut a world off from the network just because a J6 trunk line bypasses it.

Imagine if the Imperium overruled local world/subsector economics. Powerful worlds within sub sectors may well set up their own communication networks and resist Imperial control of them. Before long the rumblings for greater autonomy and less taxes would follow.

But the Imperium has contracts with its member worlds (membership charters). And the means to enforce them. Besides, trade may be hugely important to many powerful individuals, but compared to GWPs it's a pittance.

The Imperium can get away with building a secret network (why is it secret)...

Because the Imperial Household does not want the coming and goings of its agents to be noted by starship spotters.

... and rely on jump 6 naval couriers for fleet communications. Similarly megacorporations can have their own jump 6 couriers.

And sector-wide companies can have their own jump 6 couriers. As can powerful member worlds, interstellar news organizations, and even individual trillionaires.

And there's a canonical statement about Oberlindes (a subsector-wide company) having jump-5 couriers.

If major trading worlds within a duchy are cut off from the x-boat network due to an 'upgrade' their trade will suffer.

Why? I don't mean where does it say so, I know the reference. But just why would trade suffer significantly? (The qualifier is a hedge against quibbles -- I'm sure it is possible to come up with scenarios that will involve financial losses, but I don't think that in general they would be of much importance at the planetary budget level.)

Their taxes will have to be reduced - if not the worlds will quickly be asking why do we need the Imperium and their taxes at all if we are having to fund our own communication network. Everything that follows is human nature.

Their taxes would be reduced. The Imperium gets 30% of each planetary military budget. Smaller GWPs means smaller planetary military budgets, smaller planetary military budgets means smaller shares to the Imperium.

Not that a small loss of interstellar trade would be easy to spot in GWPs, interstellar trade being so relatively minuscule as is implied in the setting material.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

3) Connect any important world that has been left out so far with the nearest X-boat route using the fewest number of jumps possible. In most cases that would be one jump, often of less than J6.

Define "important" in terms of the data present in the T5 Second Survey.

4) Throw in a few curious kinks if you can think of explanations for them.

Unfortunately, curious kinks are difficult to program.

 

[rancke]

Define "important" in terms of the data present in the T5 Second Survey.

Unfortunately, curious kinks are difficult to program.

Ah, I hadn't spotted that you're trying to automate the process. I don't think I can and I don't think I should if I could. This is not, IMO, the sort of thing that should be automated, since it involve such ephemeral factors as personal judgement (of the route planners), political infighting ("Either we get the X-boat link or our neighbor gets it; let's send a deputation to 'influence' the planners"), and historical events.

For defining 'important' in non-automated route generation terms, you could do worse than to go with all pop level 7+ worlds that are on the canonical X-boat network.

But really, there's no reason why any medium and high population world within jump-4 of any node in the X-boat network shouldn't get at least a weekly visit by an X-boat or a courier belonging to the X-boat Service. It's not like the Service has to lay down tracks in jumpspace to create a new route. All it takes is a couple of extra X-boats and a tender stationed at the world.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Unfortunately, curious kinks are difficult to program.

Not at all. Just automate the process and omit human vetting of the results. :devil:

Getting curious kinks that can be explained, OTOH, that would be tricky indeed to program.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

But really, there's no reason why any medium and high population world within jump-4 of any node in the X-boat network shouldn't get at least a weekly visit by an X-boat or a courier belonging to the X-boat Service. It's not like the Service has to lay down tracks in jumpspace to create a new route. All it takes is a couple of extra X-boats and a tender stationed at the world.

I've been staring at x-boat routes for the past two weeks, trying various automated combinations across the various Imperial sectors. There are a few insights I've come across.

First is have an appropriate number of end points. That is, places you are connecting. So step two (for example) of connecting subsector capitals to the sector capital doesn't provide enough links to build the network around. There are too many huge holes in the sector left unreached. Hence the question of "important" worlds to serve as additional end points.

On the other hand, too many end points leaves you with a maze of crossing routes.

The other point becomes connecting the end points. If, for example, you have two worlds 25 parsecs apart, what is the most efficient route to connect them? 5 Jump 5s? But that may ignore political realities. So If I come up with a route (automated or manual) that takes six jumps to cover the distance, but includes a Scout Way station, the Sector Depot and two High Pop worlds is that more or less efficient than the most direct route.

Now some of those things (population levels, bases, importance, economics) are captured in the UWP data. But others are not and need a manual hand to address.

To be clear, I'm agreeing with your points about efficiency, and political reality. I'm just trying to push as hard as I can on the handwavy parts to see how close I can come with the automated generation.

I'm thinking to do this correctly there will need to be three different, but overlapping, communication networks. I said this already: the J6/5 nobility/navy "secret" network, the J4/3 scout x-boat routes and the j2/3 commercial mail routes.

 

[tjoneslo]

Not at all. Just automate the process and omit human vetting of the results. :devil:

Spinward Marches.pdf

I'd be interested to see what you think of this attempt at an automated update to the x-boat routes. Find where the kinks are to vet. (The other link is the Solomani Rim, despite the name in the post).

 

[rancke]

I've been staring at x-boat routes for the past two weeks, trying various automated combinations across the various Imperial sectors. There are a few insights I've come across.

I've done something similar, if only for the Spinward Marches and Deneb, so my insights are also based on experience.

First is have an appropriate number of end points. That is, places you are connecting. So step two (for example) of connecting subsector capitals to the sector capital doesn't provide enough links to build the network around. There are too many huge holes in the sector left unreached. Hence the question of "important" worlds to serve as additional end points.

The holes can't be that huge. No world can possibly be more than two jumps from a subsector capital and many will be only one jump away. But I don't see the problem with cross-referencing population level and starport class to provide an importance level. Incidentally, doesn't T5 specifically calculate importance ratings?

The other point becomes connecting the end points. If, for example, you have two worlds 25 parsecs apart, what is the most efficient route to connect them? 5 Jump 5s? But that may ignore political realities. So If I come up with a route (automated or manual) that takes six jumps to cover the distance, but includes a Scout Way station, the Sector Depot and two High Pop worlds is that more or less efficient than the most direct route.

Scout Way stations is an after-the-fact determination. By definition it won't be on a world cthat doesn't have a major X-boat link. If your route bypasses the world where canon says there is a Way Station, retcon the sucker out of existence. And while you're at it, place the replacement in a high-tech, high-population system, not an intermediate system. Depots should specifically not have X-boat links. They're Imperial Naval installations. And any high-population system that isn't on the direct trunk line between the two end points can be connected by a side link. The most efficient route is five jumps, because a six jump route will delay communications times to every world on either side of the strecth.

Now some of those things (population levels, bases, importance, economics) are captured in the UWP data. But others are not and need a manual hand to address.

Amen to that.

I'm thinking to do this correctly there will need to be three different, but overlapping, communication networks. I said this already: the J6/5 nobility/navy "secret" network, the J4/3 scout x-boat routes and the j2/3 commercial mail routes.

And 13 "secret" megacorporate networks. And a number of sector-wide company networks. And a LOT of courier routes from member worlds to sector capitals and to Capital. And one or more commercial news networks.

Probably few or no ducal networks, they can use the Navy's couriers. May be some duchy-wide networks that link up with neighboring networks.


Hans

 

[Patron Zero]

Pardon me if I stirred up a proverbial hornet's nest when starting this thread, interesting though seeing how it's evolved all the same.

That said, is there any canon materials concerning jump-capable torpedoes ?

Seems there lies a reasonable 'compromise' between construction of J5-J6 x-boats by equipping a 'standard' J4 ship with the ability to carry-deploy 'courier' torpedoes rated at J1, J2 or even J3 performance.

No one would expect the express boat network to go fully 'automated' if such hardware was developed-employed but for working with the constraints of J4-endurance it might be a good 'patch' on an otherwise working system.

 

[Carlobrand]

...That said, is there any canon materials concerning jump-capable torpedoes ? ...

Get the pitchforks!!!:rofl:

 

[rancke]

That said, is there any canon materials concerning jump-capable torpedoes ?

Just some fanon. My own take is that jump torpedoes are possible, but they are big (basically the size of a jump drive capable of generating a 100dT jump field) and hence expensive. Jump torpedoes have a 1 in 36 chance of disappearing when used, which makes them useful for distress calls (a 35/36 chance of survival being a considerable improvement over no chance at all) but makes them more expensive than X-boats for regular use in an X-torp network.


Hans

 

[Adam Dray]

And 13 "secret" megacorporate networks. And a number of sector-wide company networks.

I'm not convinced that jump networks and jump capabilities can be kept secret for long.

Say the Navy invented jump-7 tech and started using it for couriers. All you need is spies at a handful of worlds to start correlating space traffic to figure this out.

Same for megacorporate networks. Traffic analysis will quickly show where their ships move, and there's a lot of competition between these companies, so there's a lot of incentive to do exactly this kind of traffic analysis.

 

[rancke]

I had formatted this and done a few minor revisions, but fumbled the posting and lost all the changes and I can't be bothered to do it all over again. It's something I wrote back in 2007 and is for the GTU in 1120, but most of it can be applied to the pre-Rebellion OTU.


A NEW X-BOAT NET


At the time of its completion, the X-boat network was hailed as one of the
brightest accomplishments of the Imperium, knitting together the far-flung
reaches of the largest state in Charted Space by providing the fastest, most
efficient communication possible. But in 1100, almost four centuries later,
it was in a sad way. Not only did it still make use of outdated jump-4
technology, many of its once-straight communication routes had become twisted
into bizarre shapes that seriously degraded what efficiency it could
potentially achieve with the outdated means available. With a theoretical
maximum of 4.15 parsecs per week (using the very expensive double courier
method) and a more realistic optimum of 3.8 parsecs per week, its actual
performance was only 2.6 parsecs per week on the average.

The reason for this parlous state of affairs was that, all the hype that has
surrounded the X-boat Network from its inception to the contrary
notwithstanding, it had actually become obsolete even before it had been
completed. When Imperial scientists invented the jump-5 drive in 689, the
Imperial Navy kept a tight grip on the secret for as long as it possibly
could, and one of the first things it did was build jump-5 couriers. For
almost 30 years the IN was the only organization with legal access to jump-5
communication and Imperial nobles and bureaucrats quite naturally began to
forward orders and reports by Navy couriers (although the bureaucrats
continued to send duplicates by X-boat -- or rather, originals by X-boat as
the regulations required and copies by Navy courier).

Hence by the time the Navy was forced to declassify the jump-5 drive in 726,
there was no pressure from the Imperium itself to upgrade the X-boat network,
and the powerful X-boat Manufacturers' Lobby was dead set against it. Some of
the manufacturers were unable to upgrade their yards to use the new technology
and others calculated that the profits on new jump-5 X-boats would not
compensate for the losses due to fewer boats being needed overall. The
megacorporations preferred to build or buy their own couriers (some had already
secretly done so years earlier), and so did the most powerful member worlds.
The scouts themselves were torn on the subject, and the X-boat division lost
out. The proposed upgrade was postponed indefinitely. The same story repeated
itself almost exactly when the jump-6 drive was invented.

With the pressure of having to be as efficient as possible gone, the X-boat
Network became a huge source of graft. Worlds vied to have links extended to
them, X-boat manufacturers encouraged the proliferation of routes, and some
Scout administrators grew rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Over the years
bureaucratic and commercial infighting, corruption, and changing circumstances
coupled with administrative inertia combined to twist the X-boat Network into
the shape it was in in 1115. But all that is finally changing.

In 1102 Emperor Strephon instructed the Scouts to begin drawing up meticulous
plans for the complete overhaul of the entire X-boat network according to the
following guidelines:

¤ All sector capitals to be connected to Capital with the fastest routes
possible using jump-6.

¤ All subsector capitals to be connected to the capital of their sector with
the fastest routes possible using jump-4. In rare cases jump-5 or even jump-6
connections may be used if it will improve performance drastically.

¤ All other important worlds to be connected to the network by jump-4.

¤ All make-work routes to be closed down.

¤ All X-boat stations now within jump-4 of each other to be connected by at
least one weekly boat.

¤ Whenever possible existing Scout bases or worlds capable of supporting the
X-boat operation is to be used for new links. New X-boat stations is not to
be established unless absolutely necessary.

The Emperor cited the needs of the public as the reason for this drastic
revision. Whether this was the sole reason or whether he worried about leaving
communication so much in the hands of the military is impossible to say. It is
rumored that the Emperor already has an alternate means of communication, but
that may not be true. Or if it is, it may not be as efficient as he'd like.

The Scouts tried to keep the plans a secret, but they soon leaked. Despite
strident protests from the X-boat manufacturers the Emperor remained adamant.
Then the protests faded away. Shortly afterwards the Emperor sent a Special
Investigator armed with an Imperial Warrant to audit the progress of the
project. The audit led to the dismissal of a dozen high-ranking Scout
officials. After that the project progressed apace. Prototype jump-5 and jump-6
X-boats were ordered, produced, and tested; rack after rack of holocrystals
were filled with reports and analyses; obstructions from further down the
system were rooted out; protests from offended member worlds were fielded;
plans were proposed, rejected, revised, and re-revised. Despite the unusually
high degree of central control necessary to cut through the obstructionism,
Strephon found that he had to allow some measure of local control, especially
when there was no obvious best choice of route between two major nodes. Also,
the revised network was supposed to be cost-neutral, so the occasional
sub-optimal solution had to be tolerated, especially in connection with
tertiary links.

Finally, on 031-1117, Emperor Strephon approved the final version of the Great
Plan and the wheels began turning. The first of the new routes (Capital-Vland)
was officially opened by the Emperor on 078-1118 -- exactly 400 years after the
X-boat network had been declared complete back in 718.

By 1120 the main trunk lines -- the jump-6 routes connecting Capital to all the
sector capitals -- have all been put into operation, although for the moment
many of them only manage one boat per week each way (the goal is one per day).
Even that is, however, a vast improvement over the former system. Many of the
secondary and tertiary connections have also been put into operation. This
actually tended to be easier, since changing a route usually involves nothing
more than changing jump coordinates and there is no dearth of jump-4 X-boats.
Minor tweaks to the routes will continue to occur for decades to come as old
jump-4 X-boats are retired and to some degree replaced by jump-5 and jump-6
X-boats.

DEEP SPACE FUEL STATIONS

The refurbished X-boat net makes greater use of deep space fuel stations than
the old one did, but for economic reasons such stations are still quite rare.
Establishing such a station is not hard; it merely requires that an X-boat
tender makes its way to an appropriate spot. But the logistics of keeping
such a station supplied with fuel adds several thousand credits to the cost
of each ton of fuel -- more if incidental expenses are included in the
calculations. Consequently such stations are used only in rare cases.


THE MULTIPLE COURIER METHOD

[Multiple couriers sent off simultaneously will arrive spread out in time by jump uncertaincy. The information they all carry will arrive by the first one to arrive. This improves average transmission times by several hours, though diminishing returns makes more than four couriers quite inefficient and just two the best value for money.]



600 T Tanker (QSDS1.5 design)
Cost: MCr165.1
Capacity (Including jump fuel tankage): 507.5 dT
Operating expenses: MCr16.51/year
One load of fuel = 507.5 minus 2*60 (fuel used to jump out and back) = 387.5.
Delivers 17.5 loads of fuel per year = 6,781.25 dT/year.
Added cost per dT of fuel = Cr2,435.

 

[rancke]

I'm not convinced that jump networks and jump capabilities can be kept secret for long.

Hence the quotation marks.


Hans

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Hop or Skip X-Boats

... is there any canon materials concerning jump-capable torpedoes ?

Get the pitchforks!!!:rofl:

And then we could include the HOP and SKIP drives taking 100 Parsec and 10 Parsec movements respectively into consideration :CoW:

 

[mike wightman]

Canon for jump torps can be found in CT 77 edition and A4 Leviathan. They were resurrected for the 1248 setting, which is still canon as far as I know.

 

[rancke]

Canon for jump torps can be found in CT 77 edition and A4 Leviathan. They were resurrected for the 1248 setting, which is still canon as far as I know.

I didn't know that. The second part, that is. I knew about the early canon, but since it was specifically superceded by later canon, I don't count it.

What are the details for the 1258 version of jump torps? Size and cost especially.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

I didn't know that. The second part, that is. I knew about the early canon, but since it was specifically superceded by later canon, I don't count it.

What are the details for the 1258 version of jump torps? Size and cost especially.

Unfortunately I cannot find particular stats. Here is what info I can find:

TNE:1248 - Bearer's of the Flame, p. 12:

Jump Torpedoes (J-Torps)
Jump Torpedoes (J-Torps) have been experimented with for centuries, though without notable success. Theoretically, it should be possible to fit a Jump drive into a small missile-like craft and install an astrogation computer. Commercial starships often use pre-programmed ‘Course Tapes’ rather than generate their own Jump vector, so an uncrewed ship should also be able to do so. For some reason, this does not work particularly well.

The Course Tapes bought by commercial ships are apparently time-sensitive in some way that is not well understood. Even if corrections are built in for the movement over time of all bodies in the departure and arrival systems, vessels using Course Tapes tend to find that the older a course is, the more variation it throws up. While coming out at 120 diameters rather than 100 is no big deal for a device intended to simply arrive and broadcast a data dump, the variation can be far larger than this, and Course Tapes more than a few weeks old have been found to significantly increase the risk of Misjump.

Commercial ships generally use a Course Tape as the basis for a Jump calculation for this reason, rather than as it is presented. The ship’s Astrogator refines the course using to his or her own skill and intuition, and creates a Jump vector with less variation than if the raw course were used. Jump torpedoes, lacking an Astrogator aboard, must use a pre-programmed course. Even if this comes straight from the Astrogator aboard a parent ship, there is still variation and a considerable chance of a Misjump. A large proportion of J-Torps Misjump, and given the expense of building the device this is simply not viable except for the most desperate or critical of ventures.


Jump Boats (J-Boats)
Jump Boats (Jump-capable craft of less than 100 displacement tons) are also prone to considerable variation and a significant chance of Misjump (around 4% on a routine, well-used route, and higher in many cases). This is thought to be due to the instability of such a small Jump field. 4% may seem like a very low loss rate, but when the volume of traffic required for effective communication is considered it becomes apparent that this is not an acceptable loss rate for crewed ships. 1 in 25 will be suffer a Misjump on average, with many of those being lost. Life expectancy for a Jump Boat crew is thus something like 2-4 years assuming a regular Jump cycle.

In the New Era, there are often reasons why risky measures must be taken, but for routine matters torpedoes and Jump Boats are not viable. They are carried by some exploration vessels, and some frontier patrols may ship a few as a last-ditch means of getting a warning home as the patrol ship is overwhelmed. As a rule, however, they are not used. Course Tapes are used in some ‘safe area’ systems, but most vessels have an Astrogator aboard as insurance.