General Tech Level Theft in the Third Imperium?

[Krikkitone]

Switzerland (as a world)
1. would be at the upper pop limit of Ni
2. would have a greater distance from markets and suppliers (1 week minimum) compared to Switzerland(the country)

 

[Grav_Moped]

Seriously? There's a world named Collace?

Yes.

Among other things, it's one of the two adversarial worlds (nominally the good guys) contesting over Pavabid in DA6: Divine Intervention

I have my issues with how canon treats D268 (mostly because it's at the edge of the Spinward Marches map and the writers didn't think outside the map), but Collace is a good "home base" to introduce players to the 3I/OTU setting.

Collace Between the Lines (my thread on the MTU version of it).

 

[infojunky]

Ok, I didn't mention this earlier, I still use the chart from Trade and Commerce in jTas for pricing of gear...

 

[Kakistocrat]

Switzerland has a number of limitations, and advantages, […] At premium are natural resources, agricultural area, living space, labour.

This is true, although until 1860 Switzerland was self-sufficient in natural resources (and presumably in labor) for its industries. The first three situations at premium also applied to Japan in the last third of the 19th century, which also quickly shed its non-industrial status. One could argue that those situations made industrialization a national priority in such countries.

 

[Kakistocrat]

Switzerland (as a world)
1. would be at the upper pop limit of Ni
2. would have a greater distance from markets and suppliers (1 week minimum) compared to Switzerland(the country)

1. is true, which is why I think that the upper population limit of the Non-industrial trade classification should be reduced from 6 to 5.

For 2., Switzerland (the country) shed its Ni status decades before the first Swiss trans-Alpine railroad was established, so its time “distance” to foreign markets and suppliers was likely not too different from that of an analogous planetary Switzerland.

 

[Condottiere]

Speaking of Japan, the Swiss were expansionist, and probably were aiming for Genoa for access to the Mediterranean, until they hit their natural borders.

Also, Great Power spheres of influence.

 

[Kakistocrat]

Speaking of Japan, the Swiss were expansionist, and probably were aiming for Genoa for access to the Mediterranean, until they hit their natural borders.

In the period leading to the shedding of its Non-industrial status, there were gains and losses to Swiss territory between the rise of Napoléon I. and the Congress of Vienna, but the changes since 1815 have been rather minor (mostly exchanges of exclaves). Before the French Revolution, Swiss expansion was limited by France to the west, Austria to the east, Savoy (sitting between Switzerland and Genoa, owned by Sardinia) and Milan (owned by Austria) to the south, Venice to the southeast, and the Holy Roman Empire to the north. (Switzerland only became independent of the Holy Roman Empire after the Treaty of Westphalia.)

 

[Condottiere]

Which is why I mentioned Great Power spheres of influence.

It seemed to organically resolve itself: you get a buffer state between them, and armed neutrality was a necessity so that no one can pull a Hannibal.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Yes, it is back
I must have missed the bit where Peru and Egypt achieved TL9...

newsflash

the Third Imperium of the 57th century is not twenty first century Earth.

But if you really want to play that game then consider this, the rulers and the rich In Peru and Egypt, the foreign diplomats and military bases will have no difficulty in purchasing anything they want.

Question - does Amazon and FedEx find a way to deliver items to overseas US military bases...

Mike,
I am sorry your comments are disingenuous

First, I said you can't buy things in Egypt or Peru which you can easily buy in the United States....So, I am sad you misrepresented my statement when you suggested I claimed Egypt or Peru were TL 9. In fact....and I can say this because I have been to these places....some parts of them "Are" TL 9 but much of those countries are not. That is related to Economic enclaves.

So while the 57th Century Third Imperium is not Current Day Earth, economic structures are still the same because the people behind them are the same. Just as you, yourself, state, the "Rich" in Peru or Egypt will be able to Import those things...

Mind you, "Import" and "get" are not the same thing as having easy access to an item.

And "getting" an item which is made a number of parsecs away is not a simple thing.
So, No....the "Powerful" can't easily get things unless they are rich enough.

So, in an example, Pimane(Mora/Spinward Marches) has effectively zero economy.
2 Parsecs from both TL-D Strouden(Lunion/Spinward Marches) and TL-9 Carey(Mora/Spinward Marches)...each on a different trade and XBoat route...No one Pimane is getting "ANYTHING" unless they can afford it.

In fact, the only ships which call there are:
1) The few Subsidized Traders with the world on their charter
2) Jump-1 Tramp freighters who hope for curios
3) Those smugglers looking to hide their cargo or maintain/repair their ship
4) Those looking for an easy target to raid (They have no Atmo, so a ship standing off and threatening to strike their sealed environment can demand anything)
5) The rare Imperial Navy patrol

And where you might say "that's an extreme example, I say "No, it is not"
You need to travel this world and understand how economies work.
You need to see where this town has all the wonders of modern technology while the town 10 miles down the road can't get them.

The way you run your Traveller Universe is up to you.
But, the reality....just like people are still people.....the reality is that you can't just order it because someone out there makes it.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Coca Cola did.

And then you have fast food franchises nowadays.

No.
Coca Cola didn't
Until recently, the ENTIRE Arabic world bought Pepsi
Israel got Coke.

Which points out the question is still one of PEOPLE....not money.
Thanks to the Lincoln agreements, this is only now starting to change. Some very few Arabic countries have gotten the chance to decide which flavor they like.

And, this only reinforces my statements

Marc Miller said people will always be people
I am sure Mr. Miller would agree with me that People make economies....and if people are the same, the economies they create will take the same shapes.
Which means you can't just buy it because someone makes it.

 

[Commander Truestar]

The very rich in Peru and Egypt could also send an underling by private plane to a country to buy the tech...

Agreed......on Earth, they can

But could the "rulers" of Pimane buy a jump capable ship in the first place?
Then, fund a run from Pimane to TL-D Strouden 2 parsecs away to buy.....say....a big screen TV they can't produce?

In the above, the question of buying a ship is very questionable.....the question of doing so for a Big Screen TV (or single high tech item) - Not
bloody likely because it would cost too damn much for just that one bloody item

We see massive tech inequity on Earth even though you can just drive a van from Muldova to Germany.

In Traveller, you can't just drive there.
You have to have a starship and crew available (Or hire one)
And then, you have to cross parsecs at a week a pop....there, and back (up hill, both ways, in the snow...)

And you have to be able to afford this.

And, if there are restrictions (I used to work in a firm working to support the US OFAC office(Google it...) then your hirelings need to find a way around those.

So, the truth is that even the rich can't just hire a lackey and leave it at that
And, where the rich can just hire a lackey.....how much is it gonna cost them for just that one item.

And remember, if you want to say, "B,,B...But Marc. It's not just one item" then what else are they buying and how likely is that to bring investigators and customs officials down on them?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Yes and no.
Money, like life, will find a way. Part of the issue here is the "Big- Ship/Small-Ship Universe" paradigm split. Specifically, What's a typical amant of traffic?

DA 1 included a report of the titular "ghost ship" loitering at a low-ish TL world on an X-boat route for five weeks, but there wasn't a ship available to go check it out.


Admittedly, DA1 has Kinorb/Regina at TL-5, as does Supp 3 (it's TL-8 on Travellermap*) but it still had a Class-A starport. And yet, despite being able to send a message to the naval base at Pixie via X-boat, this wasn't done, or wasn't followed up on.

This is just how the early Traveller universe worked. It may not be the way it's seen now. It's not quite how I see it, anyhow,


- - - -
* which makes a lot more sense given the starport rating. Haven't gone back through to work out what the tech level die roll would have been, or if the Supp 3 TL was a typo or the result of overlooking an applicable DM...

 

[Commander Truestar]

Yes and no.
Money, like life, will find a way. Part of the issue here is the "Big- Ship/Small-Ship Universe" paradigm split. Specifically, What's a typical amant of traffic?

I agree, and my comments have supported, that money will find a way...
But, you have to have Money first.
And, even when you do have the money, there is a break point at which the cost will be too much for an item no matter how much money you have.

Added to that, the point I am arguing against is @mike wightman 's assertion:
"The Imperium promotes free trade, if you want a TL15 item but you live on a TL9 world just order it and pay the shipping cost."

Where Money may well find a way, this assertion is anyone can simply pick up a comms, spark up the vid, wrap a message around an arrow and order anything

But, "Money" is not the average person.
Proponents of @mike wightman's point of view quickly supported narrowing down the discussion to "Rich people can"....but I have repeatedly pointed out "everyone" is not rich.

Some examples of this are Pavabid(District 268/Spinward Marches). There, all of the highest rank of leadership live in a floating city above the fields their populace work. Literally no one else can order jack from off world. The leadership tell them that is heresy. And yes, I do admit this system is outside the 3I, but still. They do "have the tech" there...So, this qualifies under @mike wightman's assertions.

Let's look at my previous example, Pimane(Mora/Spinward Marches)
Two parsecs from a TL-D world on one Xboat route and 2 from a TL-9 world on another. Not to mention, 6 Parsecs from Mora itself.
But they have no atmo, no hydrographics, almost no population and literally nothing to sell

IMTU, they were a mining world when Imperial settlement of the Marches was new and Jump 4 was what Jump 6 is now.
IMTU, they are what is referred to as a "Ghost world", where the mines played out and those who could left.
The rest are essentially trapped by economics while the Xboat route and trading ships pass them by
They'd be entirely cut off if they were not on a "Must call there Once every two months" charter assigned to a Subsidized Trader.

But, again, they have nothing to trade. So, even the masters of Subsidized Traders might try to find a "legitimate reason" for skipping them

Look at the Spinward Marches and you see many systems "out on the strand" where almost no one "wants to go to"
All those systems are certainly not what you, or anyone else, would call "Money"
And, all of those are societies which can't simply pick op the comms and call Amazon...or Sears...or whatever.

 

[Grav_Moped]

And, all of those are societies which can't simply pick op the comms and call Amazon...or Sears...or whatever.

I don't disagree.

TL describes what's generally available, and to some extent what the local economy can support logistically.

Parabid is definitely a prime case of this (as are the TEDs* of the TNE setting). Elites can get stuff that isn't available on the local economy -- and they might need to import the expertise to maintain it as well, if it's not simply expendable (or just treated as such despite being designed to be serviced....)

There are definitely cases where the local society lacks the resourcess to import high technology regardless of how hard the local elites try to extract a surplus for that purpose.

The thing is, there's a difference between the average person's ability to place an order on SpaceAmazon (and afford it) and the local elites' ability to do it. Then it comes back to the "how much traffic is there?" issue... you aren't going to be able to order offworld stuff if starships never visit. But if they do, you can put in the order ("those are really nice guns you have there -- come back with a few crates of them and we'll make it worth your while...") even if it takes a while for someone to get around to filling it. And, again (as you note) it comes down to having the resources to make it worth their effort.


---------------------------------
*TED: Technologically-elevated dictator

 

[Spinward Flow]

Look at the Spinward Marches and you see many systems "out on the strand" where almost no one "wants to go to"
All those systems are certainly not what you, or anyone else, would call "Money"

Which was the foundational insight for wanting to design Fast Couriers that could profit and thrive in these "population/resource deprived" regions of space so as to "go where no one else wants to go" ... because for most merchants the trip wouldn't be worth the expense.

In other words, there is an evolutionary economic niche role to be found there with little to no competition (aside from pirates). The problem is that you can't use the bog standard "ordinary" merchant ships in this environment, since they've got an economic model that requires full manifests in order to offset their operating costs in order to make a profit. Point being that if you try and put a J1 Free Trader or a J2 Far Trader on a "diet" to reduce their overhead costs to the bare minimum, they're still going to exceed the amount of revenue that can be (reliably) generated from X-Mail deliveries.

You basically need a starship that will be able to survive on Cr25,000 per month (baseline) in revenues and still turn a profit. Crew and life support will RAPIDLY eat into that profit margin, such that even a crew of 4 (Pilot, Engineer, Medic, Gunner) will cost Cr13,000 per month in salaries and another Cr8000 per month in life support costs for a 200 ton starship. So that's already Cr21,000 in monthly overhead before accounting for fuel expenses, annual overhaul maintenance, berthing fees ... so on and so forth. Point being, with a crew of only 4 people, you're already looking at extremely slim profit margins if all you can deliver is X-Mail ... which when you're delivering to economic backwater worlds, is going to be your safest assumption. Being able to generate additional transport services revenues would be a privilege, not a right (or happen automatically, every single time).

So the biggest cost cutting of expenses you can make as an operator in this "bottom of the barrel" economic backwater routes market is going to be found in sub-200 ton hulls and 2 man crews (Pilot, Gunner) delivering X-Mail. The reliable minimum revenue income remains down in the Cr25,000 per month (baseline) range, but a crew of 2 (Pilot, Gunner) cost Cr7000 in salaries and another Cr4000 per month in life support costs for a sub-200 ton starship. That's essentially a Cr10,000 per month profit difference between the 2 man crew and the 4 man crew ... and that margin difference is enough to Make Or Break a business model.

This is why I'm still of the opinion, even after 2+ years on these forums, that the best way to make money "where no one else wants to go" is with a Fast Courier ship optimized for X-Mail deliveries as their "bread 'n' butter" source of revenue, with enough maneuvering power/agility to Break Off By Acceleration from unwanted hostile encounters (limiting combat exposure) while also having a modest cargo bay to generate supplemental income from freight shipping and/or speculative goods trading on the side (rather than as a primary source of revenues). Yes, this arrangement turns the starship into a "glorified delivery van" for making those Last Parsec deliveries out into the boonies ... but it works.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Admittedly, DA1 has Kinorb/Regina at TL-5, as does Supp 3 (it's TL-8 on Travellermap*) but it still had a Class-A starport.

In retrospect, it had to have been a typo: with the DMs from having a Class-A starport and "Rich" trade code, TL-8 is the lowest TL that it could have gotten out of the worldgen system. Nice planet they've got there, actually.

 

[Commander Truestar]

In retrospect, it had to have been a typo: with the DMs from having a Class-A starport and "Rich" trade code, TL-8 is the lowest TL that it could have gotten out of the worldgen system. Nice planet they've got there, actually.

According to the Errata, Re: The Traveller Book:

Page 152, Regina Subsector data (correction): Regina (0310) should have TL code of “C”. Roup (0407) should
have a TL code of “7”. Yori (0510) should have a TL code of “A”. Kinorb (0602) should have a TL code of “8”.

So, the typo theory is the best we can go by, because Don's Errata says it should be an "8"

 

[Condottiere]

THE "COCA-COLA COLONELS" AND THEIR WARTIME MISSION
The Coca-Cola Colonels
History Oasis
‍

Perhaps one of the most intriguing chapters in the Coca-Cola wartime saga involves the remarkable role played by a cadre of company employees.

Affectionately and informally dubbed the "Coca-Cola Colonels," these 148 Technical Observers were not military strategists or combat specialists, but they were embarking on a mission as unprecedented as it was crucial.


Their task was monumental: to ensure that the beloved caramel concoction reached the parched lips of American soldiers, regardless of where duty called them.

The Frontline Factories
The call of the Coca-Cola Colonels was as unorthodox as it was challenging. They were dispatched to the far corners of the globe, to places where the rumble of combat was a daily chorus.

Their mission: to erect bottling plants, often in the very shadows of the front lines.

These weren't the typical bottling plants one might picture, humming along in the heart of American cities.


These were portable installations, capable of being packed, moved, and reassembled with speed.

The Coca-Cola Colonels had to be as adaptable as the plants they were building, often dealing with the harsh realities of war—scarcity of resources, threat of enemy fire, the constant flux of the frontlines.

Yet, they persevered, driven by the conviction that their task was an essential part of the war effort.

The Logistics Of Liquid Morale
Keeping the Coca-Cola flowing was no small feat.

The bottling process involved a complex supply chain, and the ingredients had to be sourced and transported across vast distances, often through hostile territories.

There were technical challenges, too, from maintaining the quality and consistency of the product to ensuring that the bottles reached the soldiers cold, just as they would have enjoyed them back home.


The Coca-Cola Colonels were instrumental in managing these logistical challenges. They coordinated the supply routes, solved technical problems, and navigated the bureaucratic maze of war logistics.

They were not just bottling a beverage—they were bottling a piece of home, a taste of normalcy in the midst of chaos.

‍

A TASTE OF HOME FOR PRISONERS OF WAR

Wikipedia
‍

It's one thing to consider the Coca-Cola phenomenon in the context of American soldiers, but the reach of this effervescent emblem of home extended far beyond the familiar confines of the American military.

A surprising testament to its pervasive influence unfolded in an unlikely setting: the austere and ominous landscape of the prisoner of war camps.

The German Pows And Their American Soda
Amidst the grim realities of captivity, the German prisoners held in American camps found an unexpected bright spot in their daily rations—Coca-Cola.

This wasn't a random addition to the prisoners' meals, nor was it a trivial gesture. It was a conscious decision, reflecting a deeper understanding of the symbolic power of the drink.


Offering Coca-Cola to the POWs was more than just an attempt to meet the basic needs of the prisoners—it was about humanizing the enemy, about showing empathy in a time when empathy was in short supply.

It was a testament to the inherent belief in the shared humanity that exists even amidst the horror of war.

The Exchange Of Captives & Cokes
The reach of Coca-Cola didn't stop at the barbed wire fences of the American POW camps.

The beverage found its way into the supplies exchanged during prisoner transfers. These exchanges, often fraught with tension and uncertainty, were marked by the unexpected presence of the familiar green bottles.

The sight of Coca-Cola amidst the provisions was a reminder that, even in the harshest circumstances, there could be a moment of respite, a sip of comfort, a taste of home.

It was a message of resilience delivered in a bottle, a message that said, even here, even now, there can be a moment of normalcy.

 

[Grav_Moped]

THE "COCA-COLA COLONELS" AND THEIR WARTIME MISSION
The Coca-Cola Colonels
History Oasis
‍

Perhaps one of the most intriguing chapters in the Coca-Cola wartime saga involves the remarkable role played by a cadre of company employees.

Affectionately and informally dubbed the "Coca-Cola Colonels," these 148 Technical Observers were not military strategists or combat specialists, but they were embarking on a mission as unprecedented as it was crucial.


Their task was monumental: to ensure that the beloved caramel concoction reached the parched lips of American soldiers, regardless of where duty called them.

The Frontline Factories
The call of the Coca-Cola Colonels was as unorthodox as it was challenging. They were dispatched to the far corners of the globe, to places where the rumble of combat was a daily chorus.

Their mission: to erect bottling plants, often in the very shadows of the front lines.

These weren't the typical bottling plants one might picture, humming along in the heart of American cities.


These were portable installations, capable of being packed, moved, and reassembled with speed.

The Coca-Cola Colonels had to be as adaptable as the plants they were building, often dealing with the harsh realities of war—scarcity of resources, threat of enemy fire, the constant flux of the frontlines.

Yet, they persevered, driven by the conviction that their task was an essential part of the war effort.

The Logistics Of Liquid Morale
Keeping the Coca-Cola flowing was no small feat.

The bottling process involved a complex supply chain, and the ingredients had to be sourced and transported across vast distances, often through hostile territories.

There were technical challenges, too, from maintaining the quality and consistency of the product to ensuring that the bottles reached the soldiers cold, just as they would have enjoyed them back home.


The Coca-Cola Colonels were instrumental in managing these logistical challenges. They coordinated the supply routes, solved technical problems, and navigated the bureaucratic maze of war logistics.

They were not just bottling a beverage—they were bottling a piece of home, a taste of normalcy in the midst of chaos.

‍

A TASTE OF HOME FOR PRISONERS OF WAR

Wikipedia
‍

It's one thing to consider the Coca-Cola phenomenon in the context of American soldiers, but the reach of this effervescent emblem of home extended far beyond the familiar confines of the American military.

A surprising testament to its pervasive influence unfolded in an unlikely setting: the austere and ominous landscape of the prisoner of war camps.

The German Pows And Their American Soda
Amidst the grim realities of captivity, the German prisoners held in American camps found an unexpected bright spot in their daily rations—Coca-Cola.

This wasn't a random addition to the prisoners' meals, nor was it a trivial gesture. It was a conscious decision, reflecting a deeper understanding of the symbolic power of the drink.


Offering Coca-Cola to the POWs was more than just an attempt to meet the basic needs of the prisoners—it was about humanizing the enemy, about showing empathy in a time when empathy was in short supply.

It was a testament to the inherent belief in the shared humanity that exists even amidst the horror of war.

The Exchange Of Captives & Cokes
The reach of Coca-Cola didn't stop at the barbed wire fences of the American POW camps.

The beverage found its way into the supplies exchanged during prisoner transfers. These exchanges, often fraught with tension and uncertainty, were marked by the unexpected presence of the familiar green bottles.

The sight of Coca-Cola amidst the provisions was a reminder that, even in the harshest circumstances, there could be a moment of respite, a sip of comfort, a taste of home.

It was a message of resilience delivered in a bottle, a message that said, even here, even now, there can be a moment of normalcy.

Then there was the Ice Cream Barge (wikipedia) in the Pacific Theatre.

Logistics. Yeah, we're winning the war by so much we can hand out frickin' ice cream to our troops while doing that whole winning thing.

 

[Condottiere]

Also, good for bartering for booze from Allies.

And, ice cream makers can mysteriously disappear, just as another warship leaves.