General Tech Level Theft in the Third Imperium?

[whulorigan]

The question underlying all of this is "What does Tech Level represent"

The intent of Tech Level was to be a quick guide to a Traveller (in a TAS datafile, for example) as to what he/she was typically likely to encounter and/or what they could likely expect to find if they went to that world. (This is from a game design viewpoint - the intent of the UWP string for the GM to hand to the player). As a result, a Traveller could certainly encounter an Air/Raft on a TL3 world if the world rulers and/or other wealthy bigwigs had imported some for themselves, or if the rulers intentionally maintained the world at low TL for their own purposes and restricted high TL for themselves, etc.

In general, the question you need to ponder is: How do you interpret the world with Population Code=2 and TL=13 (or TL=7, for that matter)? Does this small colony of less than 100 people produce their technology locally? If a research colony of 30 people uses TL12 equipment that is supplied from off-world, do you rate the colony as TL3 because that is the best they could hope to make themselves with their own personal skills should they get cut-off from the outside universe?

 

[Spinward Flow]

How do you interpret the world with Population Code=2 and TL=13 (or TL=7, for that matter)?
Does this small colony of less than 100 people produce their technology locally?
If a research colony of 30 people uses TL12 equipment that is supplied from off-world, do you rate the colony as TL3 because that is the best they could hope to make themselves with their own personal skills should they get cut-off from the outside universe?

Pixie / Regina / Spinward Marches (A100103-D)

1. Highly automated outpost
2. There will be Makertech available for the fabrication of spare parts and replacements needed by technology in use, but there will be limitations on the crafting of "novel uses" for such machines. Specifically, there is going to be a lack of (economic) diversity because the mainworld is rather severely Non-industrialized and will therefore have a necessarily limited set of skills available within the pool of sophonts living there.
3. The production capacity is going to be somewhat narrowly "tailored" for specific purposes needed for sustainment of personnel and in support of their jobs.

Yes, there is a type A starport there which is theoretically capable of building "any craft" up to TL=13 standards (by RAW) ... but that's just the starting point for a Player and a Referee. If I were a Referee, I'm thinking it would be a reasonably safe assumption that with such a low population (less than 100!) that there would be no Naval Architect specialist in residence ... so if you want to have a starship built at Pixie you had better bring your own construction plans for it. Furthermore, the actual construction itself is going to be a "highly automated process" with severely limited sophont oversight ... so if there's a design flaw in some new custom plans, it's going to be "faithfully replicated" into the construction as specified in the design. Depending on how "custom" the design is, some parts and components to be used in the construction may need to be imported (probably from Efate/Regina).

The wrinkle in all of this is the Imperial Navy base in the system, which means that the IN gets to "waive" most of those civilian restrictions with sufficient pre-positioning of supplies and personnel. If the IN needs to build a TL=15 Light Cruiser at Pixie ... they can ... they just need to import all the stuff to do so into the Pixie system and then start integrating everything through final assembly.

Fun side note:
General Products is headquartered at Boughene Station for administrative purposes, but has facilities at Pixie where the company built for military contract craft.

---

Which is a long winded way of saying that the UWP is merely a starting point ... not an ending point.
If you want nuance to be a factor (and as a Referee, you really should!), then there is plenty of room and scope for such details to be added to every single world IYTU.

 

[whulorigan]

Which is a long winded way of saying that the UWP is merely a starting point ... not an ending point.
If you want nuance to be a factor (and as a Referee, you really should!), then there is plenty of room and scope for such details to be added to every single world IYTU.

THIS.

 

[Spinward Flow]

THIS.

I have my moments ...

 

[Krikkitone]

I’d go with TL=commonly available

why it isn’t available would probably be cost of importing both the object and importing all maintenance of it….higher TL imported things being more expensive because you need higher TL manufacturing plants.

And for somewhere with an industrial base, upgrading step by step is cheaper than building totally new plants (and still very expensive compared to just sticking with local current TL)

 

[bookwyrm]

Another thing to think about... in the Imperium and other large polities like it, since promoting trade is important for generating revenue, there is probably many various things of many various TL's all over the place, maybe not as many things in the back water worlds, so not only are things of a higher/lower tech level being stolen, but there is probably an interstellar criminal network of sorts to move those stolen goods around.

An independent world or a small polity of a handful of planets might be dealing with this problem in a way more in line with the question of the OP.

 

[Timerover51]

Separately, I'll give an example of my own experience in differing Tech Levels, within the nominally same Tech Level. My laptop computer, the one I am typing this on right now, runs from a power adapter which has a cord ending in a three-prong plug; you know the type, two blades and a ground. It was manufactured in 2019. When I go to visit my parents down in San Diego (I live in Las Vegas, about 360 miles away by driving) I need to bring an adapter with me to re-charge my laptop at their home. That house was built in 1964 and only has two-slot power sockets. Even though their house and my laptop will both interface the 120 volts, I can't just walk in and make it work. If I were to go, say, to someplace in Europe, I might need further converters not just for plugs but also for voltage. And there are other places that I can go in this world where a power source for my laptop is simply unavailable. Imagine the differences between Pixie and Edenelt once you get out of the starport district!

We have friends in other countries where the electric power supply is not constant and they are subject to continually power blackouts for hours on end. There is very much in the U.S. that we take for granted.

 

[whartung]

We have friends in other countries where the electric power supply is not constant and they are subject to continually power blackouts for hours on end. There is very much in the U.S. that we take for granted.

Well, I don't any more, I have house batteries for a reason.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Why not just buy it?
The Imperium promotes free trade, if you want a TL15 item but you live on a TL9 world just order it and pay the shipping cost.

So, this is back again.
If you travel across the globe you will find there are things you can't find for love or money in Peru or Egypt, which are fairly forward countries in their Economic niches. And you can find the most modern tech toy "just over the border from Egypt in Israel.
Then, there are things the big first world governments "Don't want you" to bring with you or even risk having stolen in certain competitive markets.

Added to that, we all recall when a certain chip firm started hard-designing processors so the exposed metal showed a pattern that translated locally int "When you care to steal from the very best"

So, when you can see such divergent markets, significant limits and other issues preventing even a single world from unifying the existing markets, you can imagine what additional barriers present themselves when you go even "local interstellar".

So, when you're out there on a world with a D, or worse class, port and the world happens to be J-3 or J-4 from "Anything".....
The ships may just not come that often...
...and those debarking the ships, for work, adventure or play, may not be interested in selling their personal tech toys because they can so elsewhere and replace them.

So, my point is, stop being so "first world - I can get it anywhere".

You can't...I know, I've been in that situation
Despite what you "can buy" in the markets of Cairo, you can't easily replace things that are nearly a dime a dozen on the streets of NYC

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, it is back
I must have missed the bit where Peru and Egypt achieved TL9...

newsflash

the Third Imperium of the 57th century is not twenty first century Earth.

But if you really want to play that game then consider this, the rulers and the rich In Peru and Egypt, the foreign diplomats and military bases will have no difficulty in purchasing anything they want.

Question - does Amazon and FedEx find a way to deliver items to overseas US military bases...

 

[Condottiere]

Coca Cola did.

And then you have fast food franchises nowadays.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Question - does Amazon and FedEx find a way to deliver items to overseas US military bases...

When I was working phone support for FedEx for their desktop shipping software, I once received a call from USAF transport people who wanted to know if they could overnight a quarter million dollar airplane part to the airbase in Kabul, Afghanistan in order to meet a priority demand for that part.

That was ... an interesting conversation.



Another time, I got a phone call from someone who wanted to ship pepper spray to Pakistan ... and they were being foiled by the fact that ITAR classified pepper spray as a "weapon" for the purposes of international shipping rules, therefore FedEx was obliged to refuse the shipment. Took a little while to get to the bottom of THAT particular piece of Cause & Effect.



So, broadly speaking (without going into too many details ... the answer to your question is YES.
There's also APOs and NPOs (Army Post Offices and Navy Post Offices) for shipping items to deployed personnel, and FedEx definitely carried and support shipping those items routed to military bases outside CONUS.

 

[mike wightman]

The very rich in Peru and Egypt could also send an underling by private plane to a country to buy the tech...

 

[Kakistocrat]

Given that the Non-industrial trade classification is solely based on population, I’d offer Switzerland as a counterexample — it’s a jurisdiction with a population digit of 6 in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries (which if it were a world, would qualify it as Non-industrial) that nonetheless established indigenous manufacturing industries. Until 1860, its industries were self-sufficient; even the raw materials and energy sources were Swiss.

… and what was the global population during those eras you’ve cited while the Government code was 7 at the time?

The global population digit reached 9 in the early 19th century; but as I’d indicated, Switzerland stopped being non-industrial independently of the rest of the global population, which should not be surprising on a world with a government digit of 7. If a jurisdiction with a population digit of 6 can independently stop being non-industrial, then I see no reason why an entire world with a population digit of 6 couldn’t also stop being non-industrial.

 

[whartung]

All that is well and good.

Outside of Nuclear Weapons, what does the Imperium interdict?

Obviously, you have local restrictions about what the world, or any polity for that matter, is willing to allow imported.

But by the same notion, space travel, particularly in Traveller, offers a spectacularly porous border.

What controls are there when you buy something from World A, destined for World B, but instead take it to World C instead?

We have strong controls at ports of entry. If FedEx knowingly ships Pepper Spray into Pakistan, I'm sure there are consequences with the Pakistani Govt if/when they discover FedEx knowing allowed Pepper Spray to be shipped. Not only that, I imagine there are bilateral agreements that Pakistan can use to escalate the charge against FedEx within the US so that they can't really avoid the consequences. To the point that it's likely enough that when you ship something to Pakistan, FedEx is going to ask "That's not Pepper Spray, is it? We can't ship that." And they won't.

(Modulo that base assumption that there is some issue with Pepper Spray and Pakistan, I have no idea.)

That level of control is not the galaxy portrayed in Traveller. No doubt there are enclaves of strict control, but there's no real discussion of interstellar polities forming and enforcing trade agreements and regulations. Maybe there are, no doubt there are, but the story is simply that the MegaCorps run roughshod over everything and travel and trade are free will on the high seas.

I'll never forget the adventure we were supposed to do, sneak into some asteroid, steal some plans or what not. But instead, we pooled our mustering out money, bought a ships hold filled with solar powered scientific calculators, and sold them to the computation hungry populace of a TL 5 planet, raking in (/pinky) MILLYUNZ of Credits. Weak GM, shouldn't have let it happen. It was a TL 5 THEOCRACY for crying out loud. But he did, we got rich, never went near the asteroid, and the GM was ticked at us.

The point being is that, as portrayed, the Imperium controls interstellar space, including trade, and doesn't really seem to care too much. It's very Laissez faire about it.

 

[Spinward Flow]

(Modulo that base assumption that there is some issue with Pepper Spray and Pakistan, I have no idea.)

ITAR governs all international shipments of goods.
The fact that ITAR classified pepper spray as a "weapon" meant that shipping it to most countries around the world would have been problematic, rather than there being a specific prohibition against Pakistan specifically with respect to that item.

The point being is that, as portrayed, the Imperium controls interstellar space, including trade, and doesn't really seem to care too much. It's very Laissez faire about it.

Sounds very Humankind Empire of Abh ... for anyone familiar with Crest/Banner of the Stars light novel, manga and anime series, although Traveller quite convincingly pre-dates that universe (by more than a decade at least).

 

[Grav_Moped]

a jurisdiction with a population digit of 6 can independently stop being non-industrial, then I see no reason why an entire world with a population digit of 6 couldn’t also stop being non-industrial.

I'm taking a course on political behavior in latin america in which the class is writing a paper on Chile.

This quote came up: "We should also note that Chile is probably the most likely Latin American nation to achieve industrialized status in the coming years."

Nobody else in the classroom understood why I mimed rolling dice while laughing to myself...

 

[Grav_Moped]

Which reminded me (along with the digression in the other thread into discussing Boughene/Regina) of how much fun one can have with world-building -- Collace/D-268, for example.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Which reminded me (along with the digression in the other thread into discussing Boughene/Regina) of how much fun one can have with world-building -- Collace/D-268, for example.

Seriously? There's a world named Collace?

Colace is a laxative that makes bowel movements softer and easier to pass.

Too bad it's spelled different. Could be a 'sh!tty' bit of Library Data for that world.

 

[Condottiere]

Switzerland has a number of limitations, and advantages, especially if you group it with a number of somewhat similar countries, such as Hong Kong, Singapore, English Crown tax haven possessions, Lichtenstein, Luxemburg, Monaco, Dubai, Malta, Cyprus, Macao.

Compared to America, Canada, Russia, India, and mainland China.

At premium are natural resources, agricultural area, living space, labour.