Astrogator/Interstellar Navigator

[Levi]

What do the astrogators (or interstellar navigators, as system appropriate) of 100-700ish dTon ships actually do in YTU?

According to the rules for CT, the Generate program on the ship's computer is responsible for actually generating the jump solution (though starports also sell jump solutions for 10kCr. per jump rating), all the navigator does is input the destination coordinates (ST:39). This task hardly seems to merit the 5kCr. a month, base salary listed on the crew salary schedule.

MgT rules are even more problematic, IMHO. Per MGP 3800, the astrogator must make an easy EDU check to plot a jump course (141), and for this is paid the same 5kCr. salary as the CT navigator. However, standard ship's computers can run Jump Control software which includes astrogation software, the program at rating 10 pays for itself over a the cost of an astrogator in 3.3 years (113). Or at TL 14, one could just drop 105kCr. on a laptop with with expert astrogation 3 (91-92), paying for itself over a less qualified astrogator in 1.75 years!

Personally, growing up on Heinlein stories, I never wondered what the astrogators did to earn their pay. One day I was running a MgT game and the person playing the astrogator asked why he was making the check, since the computer had better stats than he. I bluffed some nonsense about spacers not trusting computers, a superstition like jump dimming and the low lottery. But really, at TL 8+ user error is the only real concern and that's not going away with a slide rule, log tables, starcharts, vernier stereograph, etc.

Later, I decided that even if the computer could generate the jump solution after receiving destination coordinates, the astrogator still needed to determine the 4-dimensional starting location, but if the starport can sell you a jump solution on self-erasing-cassette that doesn't work.

So, ideas? How do your astrogators earn their pay, what is the astrogation skill really about.

Bonus question: how does one steer a jump bubble?

 

[mike wightman]

If all there was to jump navigation is plugging in a generate program or a pre-programmed jump cassette then navigators would have been replaced by a robot a long time ago

IMTU navigators earn their pay by being able to input the variables that the computers can't.

The navigator maintains a jump rutter - a personal journal full of notes and variables learned through experience; a chart of gravitational anomalies and interactions (look up n body problem and think of its implications to jump plotting). These rutters are very personal and tied to the routes the navigator travels, but the lessons learned can often be used in a jump off the beaten track so to speak.

 

[HG_B]

So, ideas? How do your astrogators earn their pay, what is the astrogation skill really about.

Bonus question: how does one steer a jump bubble?

The only solution to this well stated problem is to go to an astrogation device like is found in Niven's universe.

p.s. You don't steer a jump bubble. The variations in its shape that the Engineer configures determines your direction in Jump Space. This requires precise J-Drive energy output configuration. VERY touchy stuff. The slightest error means a reentry error that can place you anywhere in the target system. (see MgT for displacement table/roll)

 

[Reban]

There are lots of potential jobs for an Astrogator in real space too:

• Comparing sensor readings to the star charts. (Starcharts can go out of date in a changing galaxy)
• Researching the route. (Check the notices to spacers for the destination)
• Locating known hazards along the flight path. (Make sure that asteroid is where it supposed to be)
• Updating the navigation log. (Make notes of intentions alongside the telemetry recorded by the ship)
• Instructing junior officers in Astrogation (useful to have Instructor skill)
• Ensuring navigation lights, beacons and other markers are working. (Making his vessel obvious to others so the don't collide or intersect dangerously)
• Standing watch as Officer of the Deck.
• Planning a realspace course to take advantage of space terrain. (for example: Astrogator plot me a course that keeps the planet between us and the pirate vessel so that we are hidden from its sensors)

For jump astrogation the Astrogator is in the loop to run the checklist as the navigation computer does its thing, to give the final go/no go decision and to react when something goes wrong.

 

[Carlobrand]

He monitors sensors for anomalies and intruders, monitors the computer's status, monitors the ship's anti-hijack routines for signs of funny business, pilots the ship's auxiliary craft, and in combat he's responsible for handling and programming the computer and monitoring the location and behavior of attackers and incoming missiles while the pilot concentrates on piloting the ship and keeping everyone alive.

Mostly, while the pilot is responsible for piloting and the engineer is responsible for the engines, the navigator is responsible for the computer and sensors. He's eyes and ears.

 

[Levi]

The navigator maintains a jump rutter - a personal journal full of notes and variables learned through experience; a chart of gravitational anomalies and interactions (look up n body problem and think of its implications to jump plotting). These rutters are very personal and tied to the routes the navigator travels, but the lessons learned can often be used in a jump off the beaten track so to speak.

I like the rutter idea, I could see how this could have a lot of potential in a trade heavy game.

The only solution to this well stated problem is to go to an astrogation device like is found in Niven's universe.

p.s. You don't steer a jump bubble.

Thanks, I'll check into that after I finish reading through the Dumarest series. Also, I meant steer in the metaphorical sense.

There are lots of potential jobs for an Astrogator in real space too:
(. . .)
For jump astrogation the Astrogator is in the loop to run the checklist as the navigation computer does its thing, to give the final go/no go decision and to react when something goes wrong.

Good ideas, lots of role playing value.

I see now that one aspect of this thread was covered about 10 years back on this forum and the consensus is that the computer could run the process, but a skilled astro/navigator knows when the computer is making a mistake and can take over if the computer malfunctions.

I imagine if that's the case there are more than a few free traders working on the margins running rust bucket ships without a navigator, scary.

 

[CosmicGamer]

all the navigator does is input the destination coordinates (ST:39).

Computer: Does not compute. Please be more specific.

How many possible points are outside the 100d limit for departure and arrival?

How does the navigator decide what coordinates to use. What if the coordinates given are for a planet on the far side of a system such that you would have to travel through its sun? Computer: Route calculated. Departure time is 3 months 10 days 14 hours. Or maybe it calculates a departure point out at 450d instead of 100d. Maybe you should pick a different set of coordinates. The navigator has to do some preliminary determinations in order to give the computer proper input.

Do we wait a few hours to depart so that the sixth planet of the system is in a better position for arrival at the 4th planet?

Ok, when we arrive the moon(s) won't be in the way but where will they be as we head in from the 100d limit? What if we do 2Gs? How about if we come in from... but then we will be jumping to a point behind the planets orbital path and have to chase it down. That will use up too much fuel, so lets try a spot 100d in front. We can let the planet come to us. Darn, the planets revolution will put the down port on the far side... how about if we... now we will be arriving after business hours on a Friday and have to wait all weekend to do business...

And so on.

 

[BlackBat242]

Not only that, but CT contains specific rules about the bias the 3I has against AI robots... so I expect that there is a legal requirement in the Imperium for any vessel carrying Imperial citizens to have a trained crewmember to oversee and (if necessary) over-ride any self-operating program or equipment.

After all, Dave really did need those pod bay doors open, now didn't he? :rofl:

 

[HG_B]

Also, I meant steer in the metaphorical sense.

I know. I was setting up my answer is all.

 

[HG_B]

The navigator has to do some preliminary determinations in order to give the computer proper input.

Not more than departure time, and G's of thrust. Then, to computer, "Calculate best/fastest route to planet X." That mundane command could be given to a nav program today for real space.

 

[Reban]

Not more than departure time, and G's of thrust. Then, to computer, "Calculate best/fastest route to planet X." That mundane command could be given to a nav program today for real space.

Well the Astrogator has to obtain and input a correct 4D fix for the ships departure point. Unlike using a Satnav both the point of departure and point of arrival are moving. Even if that fix is automated the Astrogator should check that the sensors used for obtaining the fix are working properly.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Not more than departure time, and G's of thrust. Then, to computer, "Calculate best/fastest route to planet X." That mundane command could be given to a nav program today for real space.

Today? We don't even have accurate and complete information on navigational hazards within our own system let alone other systems. In some TU's? Definitely.

departure time - Sure, computers do as they are programmed and the dumb pilot who just blindly provides departure time and other information to the navigation program will get the same response as would a navigator who entered the same data - but would a trained, skilled navigator input the same data?

Maybe this is a good example, maybe it isn't:
The "Pilot" inputs data into a software program to "Plot a course" and the computer will "produce results" based on the input.
vs
The "Navigator" inputs data into a software program to "Plot a course" and the computer will "produce results" based on the input.

Now, replace "Pilot" with "tax payer"
replace "Navigator" with "tax accountant"
replace "Plot a course" with "prepare taxes"
replace "produce results" with "file a return"

The "tax payer" inputs data into a software program to "prepare taxes" and the computer will "file a return" based on the input.
vs
The "tax accountant" inputs data into a software program to "prepare taxes" and the computer will "file a return" based on the input.

Is it possible that a tax expert using the same software program might be able to utilize their greater knowledge and experience with these things and come up with some alternate input which produces different, more beneficial results?

best/fastest - Like I said before, the optimal route might actually be achieved by departing sooner or later. A good navigator might know how to coax that information out of the navigation computer.

I think of the different weather services which all have their own predictions of a hurricanes path and time of landfall. With many simulation programs, you often tweak a little here and there and produce multiple results.

Computers were not so powerful back when Traveller came out and some new versions of Traveller have not been willing to rewrite how certain things are done.

From the rules: "Generate creates a flight path which will govern the use of the Jump program." and "...flight plan which is then used by the computer when jump is performed" I've always taken this to be a flight plan for navigating jump space - not normal space.

From the rules for the Navigation skill: "the navigator is relied on to plot a course"

So IMTU, the navigator, not software on a computer, determines the best routes to travel in normal space - with computer assistance.

 

[Carlobrand]

...How does the navigator decide what coordinates to use. What if the coordinates given are for a planet on the far side of a system such that you would have to travel through its sun? Computer: Route calculated. Departure time is 3 months 10 days 14 hours. Or maybe it calculates a departure point out at 450d instead of 100d. Maybe you should pick a different set of coordinates. The navigator has to do some preliminary determinations in order to give the computer proper input.

Do we wait a few hours to depart so that the sixth planet of the system is in a better position for arrival at the 4th planet?

Ok, when we arrive the moon(s) won't be in the way but where will they be as we head in from the 100d limit? What if we do 2Gs? How about if we come in from... but then we will be jumping to a point behind the planets orbital path and have to chase it down. That will use up too much fuel, so lets try a spot 100d in front. We can let the planet come to us. Darn, the planets revolution will put the down port on the far side... how about if we... now we will be arriving after business hours on a Friday and have to wait all weekend to do business...

And so on.

I don't see anything there a good program couldn't handle.

 

[MCEvans]

I have to comment, especially when people are talking about navigation programs. Even the best ones NEED human input no the course selection.

If you want an idea of why go play with Google Maps. :file_21:
I've put in destinations that I've been to and have got back up to 3 different routes and not one of them the way I normally go, adjust to my route and get back an increase of up to 3 hrs for 3 mile adjustment o:.

So an Astrogator/Navigator will work with the computers output and pick the best route, based on info the computer may not have or personal info, and adjust as necessary.

I found out the hard way to never fully trust mapping programs, especially for shortest/fastest route because that may not be the best.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I have to comment, especially when people are talking about navigation programs. Even the best ones NEED human input no the course selection.

Much like these Einsteins that follow the GPS when it says "turn right, now" and they turn down a railroad track or off a pier. A few of those have been Darwinesque immediate feedback situations.

 

[Vladika]

One of the first rules of computers.

Garbage in = garbage out.

 

[MCEvans]

One of the first rules of computers.

Garbage in = garbage out.

That my dear Sir is a Truism that will never fail.

This is also a hook for many an adventure. :devil:

 

[HG_B]

Even if that fix is automated the Astrogator should check that the sensors used for obtaining the fix are working properly.

Right. Basically it is automated as I just stated. With a human playing babysitter.

 

[Timerover51]

Today? We don't even have accurate and complete information on navigational hazards within our own system let alone other systems. In some TU's? Definitely.

departure time - Sure, computers do as they are programmed and the dumb pilot who just blindly provides departure time and other information to the navigation program will get the same response as would a navigator who entered the same data - but would a trained, skilled navigator input the same data?

Maybe this is a good example, maybe it isn't:
The "Pilot" inputs data into a software program to "Plot a course" and the computer will "produce results" based on the input.
vs
The "Navigator" inputs data into a software program to "Plot a course" and the computer will "produce results" based on the input.

Now, replace "Pilot" with "tax payer"
replace "Navigator" with "tax accountant"
replace "Plot a course" with "prepare taxes"
replace "produce results" with "file a return"

The "tax payer" inputs data into a software program to "prepare taxes" and the computer will "file a return" based on the input.
vs
The "tax accountant" inputs data into a software program to "prepare taxes" and the computer will "file a return" based on the input.

Is it possible that a tax expert using the same software program might be able to utilize their greater knowledge and experience with these things and come up with some alternate input which produces different, more beneficial results?

best/fastest - Like I said before, the optimal route might actually be achieved by departing sooner or later. A good navigator might know how to coax that information out of the navigation computer.

I think of the different weather services which all have their own predictions of a hurricanes path and time of landfall. With many simulation programs, you often tweak a little here and there and produce multiple results.

Computers were not so powerful back when Traveller came out and some new versions of Traveller have not been willing to rewrite how certain things are done.

From the rules: "Generate creates a flight path which will govern the use of the Jump program." and "...flight plan which is then used by the computer when jump is performed" I've always taken this to be a flight plan for navigating jump space - not normal space.

From the rules for the Navigation skill: "the navigator is relied on to plot a course"

So IMTU, the navigator, not software on a computer, determines the best routes to travel in normal space - with computer assistance.

I like your analogy of the "tax payer" and "tax accountant" as I am married to a CPA/Enrolled Agent tax accountant. It is amazing how much difference it makes when she does a tax return verses the average tax payer doing one.

As for the navigator, primary job is to figure out where you are in your destination system when you break out of jump space, along with monitoring all external sensors, and making sure that your computer data base for the sector you are in is currently up to date. Fun time is if you have to visit an asteroid belt, and he/she first has to determine where the asteroid is that you are supposed to be at. He/she earns their pay when jumping into a low Tech Level system, with no navigation aids.

 

[tjoneslo]

What do the astrogators (or interstellar navigators, as system appropriate) of 100-700ish dTon ships actually do in YTU?

MgT rules are even more problematic, IMHO. Per MGP 3800, the astrogator must make an easy EDU check to plot a jump course (141), and for this is paid the same 5kCr. salary as the CT navigator. However, standard ship's computers can run Jump Control software which includes astrogation software, the program at rating 10 pays for itself over a the cost of an astrogator in 3.3 years (113). Or at TL 14, one could just drop 105kCr. on a laptop with with expert astrogation 3 (91-92), paying for itself over a less qualified astrogator in 1.75 years!

This is a general problem of computers with skills. It's not hard to imagine a computerized expert system being better than most people at almost any task. And there are examples throughout both fiction and the real world.

I think the best way to answer this question is as follows: Technology in Traveller is old. The Vilani have been doing space flight navigation since before there was writing on Terra. So every possible combination of computer technology, software, and expert system analysis has been tried, and ultimately rejected. The reasons are subtle (i.e. way too small to show up as a +1 on the rolls, even using a d100), but the affects are real.

This is a limitation of the Traveller rules, meant to be simple to allow people have more time playing and less time arguing over the rules and their interpretation.