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Astrogator/Interstellar Navigator

If the computer on a new airliner "goes down" the plane is also going down. With or, without a pilot.

Not according to his pilot:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/travel/autopilot-airlines

Even Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger enjoyed the backup of computer autopilot during his famous "miracle on the Hudson" emergency landing three years ago.

Sullenberger was in the pilot's seat when his Airbus A320 collided with a flock of geese and lost thrust 2,700 feet over Manhattan.

Computer-assisted flight systems were active, Sullenberger said, but there was no need for them.
Capt. Chesley Sullenberger says flight control computers weren't necessary for him to safely ditch in New York's Hudson River in 2009.

"We never got to the extremes where [flight control computers] would have protected us" from pointing the plane's nose too high, or going too fast or too slow, he told CNN last week. "We didn't need any of it."

In fact, flight control computers actually hindered the landing, said Sullenberger, who's now a CBS News aviation and safety consultant. Flight software prevented him from keeping the plane's nose a little higher during the last four seconds before he ditched US Airways Flight 1549 in the icy Hudson River.

Your idea of tech reliability is way out of date.

Perhaps. We likely aren't going to agree so I'll just say I prefer a human, at least for a backup, over a machine.
 
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Wrong question. Fly by wire is what I'm talking about. NOT the auto pilot. I can tell that you have no real knowledge of modern aircraft. With modern fly by wire, if THAT computer goes out, you are toast. I suggest you stay off modern airliners.. ;)

It has nothing to do with agreement. Only reality...

The THAT computer you mention implies only one. Everything I read says there are 3 or 4 redundant systems.
...Sullenberger enjoyed the backup of computer autopilot...

I'm sure I got something wrong here but:

Computer-assisted flight systems were active, Sullenberger said, but there was no need for them.
Capt. Chesley Sullenberger says flight control computers weren't necessary

In fact, flight control computers actually hindered the landing, said Sullenberger

But, for now, I'll go with the good Captain and his stated opinions.

Even if you are an airline pilot, you aren't the guy who brought this thing down safely.

As for

I suggest you stay off modern airliners.. ;)

my flying, or not, has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread or anything else. I'm not afraid to fly, but, I like the FAA, seem to think having an awake, sober and drug free pilot has some small merit?

But, as usual, the real world officials (FAA, not me) don't compare with CotI armchair experts...:rofl:
 
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But since we know for a fact that, unlike airliner navigators, astrogators are still being hired, they must, in fact, be better than computer programs, and either your assumptions or your logic must be faulty. ;)

Perhaps a good MTU/house rule solution to the issue of the hiring of astrogators who don't necessarily need to be crewing the ship could be cultural. Perhaps the people who are contracting freight and passage want to see an astrogator for insurance reasons, sort of like the modifier to available mail if a ship has a mounted weapon. In this way, captains and pursers would weigh the benefits to cargo availability to the cost of hiring the astrogator.
 
New technology gets developed/found/discovered all the time. "Virus" is an example. Now, Trav has AI Astrogation pgms.
'Now', for the Third Imperium setting, is 1105. Technology in the Third Imperium in the Year 1105 would be the same as it has always been in the Third Imperium in the Year 1105.

But I don't have to rely on this blindingly obvious observation. I dug out my MgT Core book, and on p. 113 it lists crew requirements. The minimum needed for the position of astrogator is an Expert Astronavigation program. But the average carried is one live astrogator. Since it would, obviously, be nonsens to claim that the minimum was superior to the average, I trust that will convince you that a live astrogator is superior to an Expert Astronavigation program.

As a GM you can always house rule it out.

True but irrelevant, as this oft-repeated observation so often is.


Hans
 
The job of the MGT rules isn't to support the OTU.

I disagree with this personal opinion of yours. One of the jobs of a rules set is surely to support any setting that is published under those rules, and the Third Imperium setting is one of the settings published by Mongoose under the MgT rules. Q.E.D..

Incidentally, the Core rules are full of references to the Third Imperium setting and to "generic" settings where things works just as they do in the Third Imperium setting. To say that they aren't supposed to support the Third Imperium setting is flawed reasoning.


Hans
 
The whole line -- or should I say sideline -- of discussion about high-tech airliner autopilots is moot, because high-tech airliner autopilots do not prove anything, one way or the other, about ultra-tech astronavigation programs.


Hans
 
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Crews in general

I've read so many arguments on this forum claiming practically ALL crew positions could be better filled by computers/ robots.

Pilots can't get out of their own way. Gunners can't hit anything. Astrogators are useless. Engineers aren't needed as nothing breaks that could be repaired (or even gotten to...) So, can we safely say IYTU that Medics aren't needed either?

Really, the poor SOB is going to be up there all by his lonesome if we ditch the rest of the crew. He wouldn't be needed for low passengers either. The Starport medic can thaw out the corpsecicles when the autoship lands.

Since the ship flies itself, decides how to get there by itself, defends itself and nothing that just might break down can be repaired anyway... Why the medic? The steward could take care of the passengers IF anyone would board that ship in the first place.

BUT, for trade cargo, passengers don't pay as well verses raw tonnage allocated for cargo!

Eureka! Ergo: No humans needed at all! Drone ships!

In MTU I'm going with a full crew, spare parts and someone who can cook a decent breakfast and apply the occasional band-aid.
 
I've read so many arguments on this forum claiming practically ALL crew positions could be better filled by computers/ robots.
This is, of course, the ultimate and irrefutable meta-game argument. If the rules do mean that ship crew roles suitable for PCs are superceded by technology, we (and by 'we' I mean Mongoose and anyone else publishing official Traveller rules) should change those rules p.d.q. and come up with a suitable handwave why technology does not, after all, supercede good oldfashioned player character action.

But it's quite a different argument from the one HG and I have been having.


Hans
 
I've read so many arguments on this forum claiming practically ALL crew positions could be better filled by computers/ robots.

Pilots can't get out of their own way. Gunners can't hit anything. Astrogators are useless. Engineers aren't needed as nothing breaks that could be repaired (or even gotten to...) So, can we safely say IYTU that Medics aren't needed either?

Really, the poor SOB is going to be up there all by his lonesome if we ditch the rest of the crew. He wouldn't be needed for low passengers either. The Starport medic can thaw out the corpsecicles when the autoship lands.

Since the ship flies itself, decides how to get there by itself, defends itself and nothing that just might break down can be repaired anyway... Why the medic? The steward could take care of the passengers IF anyone would board that ship in the first place.

BUT, for trade cargo, passengers don't pay as well verses raw tonnage allocated for cargo!

Eureka! Ergo: No humans needed at all! Drone ships!

In MTU I'm going with a full crew, spare parts and someone who can cook a decent breakfast and apply the occasional band-aid.
You really can't beat a human for stewards...

But yeah, Long term, robots are cheaper and (by TL12) just as competent as inexperienced crewmen.
 
You really can't beat a human for stewards...

But yeah, Long term, robots are cheaper and (by TL12) just as competent as inexperienced crewmen.

Yep. And by TL 13+ you can (by RAW) replace anyone with a professional skill Level-2.
 
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That's the beauty of the game. You can make house rules that override RAW.

House rules? Try most every version of Traveller ever published.

I agree, you can replace the whole crew, at higher TLs (try it at TL 9), but what canon ship ever did so? None that I recall.

If you do replace whole crews, what do PCs do? Stay dirtside and play XBox?
 
House rules? Try most every version of Traveller ever published.

I agree, you can replace the whole crew, at higher TLs (try it at TL 9), but what canon ship ever did so? None that I recall.
That point has already been made and ignored.

If you do replace whole crews, what do PCs do? Stay dirtside and play XBox?

And that one as well.


Hans
 
My take on this is that a lot of work is performed by automatic, computerised systems. I don't think anybody in the OTU calculates jump vectors with a slide rule, or traces them on a paper chart. It's all done through a super-high resolution 3D interface.

The problem computer systems can't overcome is in deciding what it is exactly they are being used to do, and why. Humans provide direction, meaning, authorization and most importantly they take responsibility which is something no computer can do.

Furthermore there must be a lot of decisions and technical constraints actual characters in Traveller have to work within that don't show up at the game mechanical level. Laser weapons might have beam focusing, wavelength, pulse duration, recharge rate characteristics, etc that need to be tuned and traded off against each other and optimum choices may depend on the target's range, movement, materials composition, orientation, etc.

None of this shows up in the game rules, but how you ballance factors like that might depend on professional knowledge of target vessels which might vary by region or species, whether you're going for a kill or disable effect, whether you're trying to scrub armour on this hit in order to go for a penetrating shot on the next, or whether you need to go all out for max damage right now due to the tactical situation and a battle plan that's in constant flux, etc, etc. I think the assumption that one roll of the dice equals one push of a button is too simplistic.

The same goes for Navigation. I'm really not a fan of pre-computed navigation solutions you can buy at a spaceport. Putting those aside, I can imagine all sorts of minutia that might go along with plotting a jump solution. Maybe the jump vector depends on minute gravitational effects from not just other planetary bodies, but even orbital space stations or passing asteroids even millions of kilometres away. There might be 'eddies' or 'currents' in the flux of the zero point 'vacuum' energy that affect optimal jump timings. Or maybe changes in the nutrino flux from the local star are a factor. I like the rutter idea, some of these fluctuations have a rythm or cyclic nature that requires judgement and personal knowledge to ballance. Computers can calculate the details, but decisions about balancing the risks and choosing whether to trade off between delaying a jump or going for a slightly more risky jump window will need to be considered by someone that can take that responsibility.

In roleplaying games, we as players suffer from massive sensory deprivation compared to the characters we play. My character must know exactly how many buttons and switches there are on his piloting console, exactly what the benefits and tradeoffs are between using an artificial horizon or a digital HUD readout.

There can sometimes be potential contradictions in the game that need to be resolved. Pre-canned jump solutions are one, and there are many others we've discussed here. Personally my preference is biased towards saying that the best way to run a ship is with a skilled human crew because this gives you the most flexibility in how you run the ship, and rules that override that need to be house ruled or reconsidered. Perhaps they can be allowed, but with some kind of down side such as allowing pre-canned jump solutions, but at the cost of not being able to decide exactly when you make the jump, because the canned solution requires specific environmental conditions and it's going to be 2D6 hours before the 'stars are right'. Or yes you can use a computer gunner, but if you ever roll snakeyes on a roll it freezes due to a potential safety protocols violation, and can't shoot for another turn while it recalibrates.

Simon Hibbs
 
My take on this is that a lot of work is performed by automatic, computerised systems. I don't think anybody in the OTU calculates jump vectors with a slide rule, or traces them on a paper chart. It's all done through a super-high resolution 3D interface.

The problem computer systems can't overcome is in deciding what it is exactly they are being used to do, and why. Humans provide direction, meaning, authorization and most importantly they take responsibility which is something no computer can do.

***snip***

Excellent post, and good justification for use of skilled humans in Traveller for work that is fully computerized in many SF stories. Sure, the computer is the primary tool and probably suggests some solutions, and might even get along without human oversight, but for best results you need the skilled human in the loop.
 
...Sure, the computer is the primary tool and probably suggests some solutions, and might even get along without human oversight, but for best results you need the skilled human in the loop.

Exactly, the thing is the difference in terms of the results might not show up at the game mechanical level so we players don't care about them, but to the characters they'd matter a lot. Saving 2% fuel consumption, or 15 minutes preparing for jump, or making the jump transition so that slight sense of queasiness is hardly even noticeable. Or as a better example, deliberately choosing to use 2% more fuel, but it means the re-entry doesn't put as much stress on that fuel intake fairing the Engineer spent all last watch fixing up, but that we never got to talk about in play - but the Engineer character must have been doing something, right? That's a decision a navigation or piloting computer can't really be expected to make because it requires a judgement based on context, experience and even negotiation between characters. But to the players it's just - "roll 2D6+modifiers, I got an 11, that's a successful re-entry and landing, who brought snacks?".

Us lazy players get to just sit around a table munching Doritos and rolling dice, while those hard working characters have to actually work for a living.

Simon Hibbs
 
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The problem computer systems can't overcome is in deciding what it is exactly they are being used to do, and why. Humans provide direction, meaning, authorization and most importantly they take responsibility which is something no computer can do.

IMTU this is the difference between A.I. & A.S. (artificial sentience). A.S. doesn't exist in my game. So, someone has to tell the Astro A.I. pgm what, when, etc. Same with a Gunnery, Pilot, Engineer A.I. pgms.

The responsibility part is key as to why no unmanned Star ships in general use. I would imagine laws regarding having to have a qualified Master on board any commercial/private ships. To qual for a Masters Cert. you'd need Pilot & Astro skills.
 
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