Battledress a vehicle?
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BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Unless it is an AI, a Drone has a very serious limitation on a modern battlefield. And AI is above standard tech levels. That limitation is that all communications are subject to interception, jamming, spoofing, and direction finding. With a Drone on a battlefield you need real time two way communications. Further against a higher tech force this problem is even worse.
You would probably, for decent maneuvering of a military force, need one man per Drone anyway. Might as well put them in the same armored shell and send them out there, less vulnerabilites that way.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
In CT this just means that your High Tech BD equipped marines go down in droves to ACR and Gauss Rifle fire. There is no effective difference in actual play between BD and Combat Armor. In MT there is also no real difference between BD and Combat armor. In both of these editions BD costs 5 to 10 times as much as combat armor for no additional protection. How much sense does this really make? Yes it has additional features, but when you get right down to it, it is armor and the primary purpose of armor is to protect the wearer. That is the reason you buy armor. Secondary options on the armor, no matter how gee-whiz doesn't justify this level of additional cost.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In the real world next generation unmanned air combat vehicles will operate without the need for human commands, the human will only be in the link as a failsafe.
AI as we would understand it is TL12 in CT - reduced to TL11 in T20. TL17+ stuff is sentient machine, which is slightly different (and again T20 lowers the TL to 15+).
Again, the real world will be moving ahead of Traveller on this one really soon
I dunno, a mule drone (Low Basic Logic, Limited Verbal Command, drive, navigation) is useful on the battlefeild already, and already doable.
Don't underestimate basic logic. What we currently use is generally of that level. Add gunnery and spot to the mule drone above and you have yourself a combatant.
Sure it isn't as flexible, capable or dangerous as a human. It is far cheaper when lives are expensive, and while you have a remote operator it can be far more accurate (under T20 rules at least), and when the remote operator is unavailable the drone itself is not helpless, and can potentially complete its mission.
IMTU there are specific form factor computers that mimic a standard Marine "body". These are to put inside battledress to turn it into an effective robotic combatant. A 100 vl computer is a little small to fit a true AI in, but still can be quite a capable machine.
Primarily it is an issue of scale. If BD was considered the smallest type of spaceship (say 0.25 dTon) it would be far worse.
There are holes that appear when 3 different but similar combat systems are bolted together. T20 is a pretty good outcome from the attempt, but there are still holes here and there. This might be one of them. If you feel it is a problem then you need to houserule around what you think that problem is.
Maybe the gap in effectiveness between combat armor and battledress is a little larger then the designers intended. Maybe it wasn't, and battledress was supposed to be nearly immune to small arms fire and significant ammounts of vehicle class weapons fire.
The BD mentioned in the book is "Medium Battle Dress". Maybe there should be several transitional steps between combat armor and battle dress. Heavy Combat armor (armor scale, AR10, large penalties to movement) and Light Battle Dress (Vehicle scale, AR3) for example, as this would smooth the transition between the two.
Gearhead footnote.
31 AC is tough by itself. Max Agility, Max armor, personal armor chameleon feild and a heavy sheild scaled to battledress size. Remember that BD is large, that's -1 to AC as well.
Don't underestimate basic logic. What we currently use is generally of that level. Add gunnery and spot to the mule drone above and you have yourself a combatant.
Sure it isn't as flexible, capable or dangerous as a human. It is far cheaper when lives are expensive, and while you have a remote operator it can be far more accurate (under T20 rules at least), and when the remote operator is unavailable the drone itself is not helpless, and can potentially complete its mission.
IMTU there are specific form factor computers that mimic a standard Marine "body". These are to put inside battledress to turn it into an effective robotic combatant. A 100 vl computer is a little small to fit a true AI in, but still can be quite a capable machine.
Is that a problem?
Primarily it is an issue of scale. If BD was considered the smallest type of spaceship (say 0.25 dTon) it would be far worse.
There are holes that appear when 3 different but similar combat systems are bolted together. T20 is a pretty good outcome from the attempt, but there are still holes here and there. This might be one of them. If you feel it is a problem then you need to houserule around what you think that problem is.
Maybe the gap in effectiveness between combat armor and battledress is a little larger then the designers intended. Maybe it wasn't, and battledress was supposed to be nearly immune to small arms fire and significant ammounts of vehicle class weapons fire.
The BD mentioned in the book is "Medium Battle Dress". Maybe there should be several transitional steps between combat armor and battle dress. Heavy Combat armor (armor scale, AR10, large penalties to movement) and Light Battle Dress (Vehicle scale, AR3) for example, as this would smooth the transition between the two.
Gearhead footnote.
Hmmm. TL13 BD can only be able to get to 31 AC as a vehicle, but that's using some edge rules. As armor the AC drops like a stone, as you use the wearers dex bonus, rather then agility, so it should be a rare solier with AC29.
31 AC is tough by itself. Max Agility, Max armor, personal armor chameleon feild and a heavy sheild scaled to battledress size. Remember that BD is large, that's -1 to AC as well.
It's not a problem as such, to have robots as vehicles.
I understand and even like the lifeform/vehicle/spaceship scaling that occurs. Why should a bullet be a danger to a spacecraft, which would have to contend with micrometeorites impacting on the hull from time to time? Similarly, as we see in Israel vs Palestine, stones thrown at tanks... yeah, just no.
But there seems to be a areas where overlap occurs. BD isn't as big as a ground car, let alone an APC or MBT. And those are armoured, whereas a ground car wouldn't.
With robots, it's a similar thing. There's a difference between Artoo and a Bolo, in size and armour at least if nothing else.
I understand and even like the lifeform/vehicle/spaceship scaling that occurs. Why should a bullet be a danger to a spacecraft, which would have to contend with micrometeorites impacting on the hull from time to time? Similarly, as we see in Israel vs Palestine, stones thrown at tanks... yeah, just no.
But there seems to be a areas where overlap occurs. BD isn't as big as a ground car, let alone an APC or MBT. And those are armoured, whereas a ground car wouldn't.
With robots, it's a similar thing. There's a difference between Artoo and a Bolo, in size and armour at least if nothing else.
Hence scaling. The assumption seems to be that vehicles are approximately one size (small truck to MBT or so), and the rules fall down on extremes.
The simplist example is the 1000 dTon (1,400,000 vl) grav tank. With maximum armour it is still far weaker then the 1000 dTon monitor with maximum armour at the same tech level.
Ditto with the overlap at the other end. The cheapest and most effective grav tank you can have is a maximum armoured 10 dTon spacecraft. At TL14 it wins hands down. Even the single pulse laser and 6 nukes it carries outperform the vehicle equivalent, especially on range.
The solution is to take away scaling based on arbritary class, and base scaling on size. A vehicle of similar size and performance should have a similar superstructure, whether built as a starship or as a vehicle.
This means that the million vl Bolo scales the same as the 700 dTon starship that is about the same size, as does the tiny starship and medium tank at the other end. At minimum this synchronises the effect of armour on vehicles/vessels of a similar size.
The simplist example is the 1000 dTon (1,400,000 vl) grav tank. With maximum armour it is still far weaker then the 1000 dTon monitor with maximum armour at the same tech level.
Ditto with the overlap at the other end. The cheapest and most effective grav tank you can have is a maximum armoured 10 dTon spacecraft. At TL14 it wins hands down. Even the single pulse laser and 6 nukes it carries outperform the vehicle equivalent, especially on range.
The solution is to take away scaling based on arbritary class, and base scaling on size. A vehicle of similar size and performance should have a similar superstructure, whether built as a starship or as a vehicle.
This means that the million vl Bolo scales the same as the 700 dTon starship that is about the same size, as does the tiny starship and medium tank at the other end. At minimum this synchronises the effect of armour on vehicles/vessels of a similar size.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A normal family car offers virtually no protection versus firearms, despite what Hollywood would have us believe.
Unless the engine block is in the way, most jacketed bullets will go straight through the body panels, so a -5 damage dice penalty is a bit steep.
Unless the engine block is in the way, most jacketed bullets will go straight through the body panels, so a -5 damage dice penalty is a bit steep.
At scaling 2 what is the difference between CA and BD.
A marine (12/12/12 physical stats)
Wearing CA is AC19 with AR8, has 12 lifeblood
Wearing BD is AC24 with AR10 and scaling 2 has 25 SI and 12 lifeblood.
Criticals are much rarer against the BD because of the difference in AC. 5 points in most cases is 25% less criticals. This is balanced by the fact that vehicle criticals can be quite devastating.
An autopistol does 0.3 lifeblood per shot (40 shots to kill) against the combat armour, and cannot damage the battledress. On a critical it is an average of 11 lifeblood and 4.5 SI.
An ACR bursting for damage does 5 lifeblood or about 1 SI. On a critical it will generally kill the combat armour (28 lifeblood) or do 15 SI to the battledress.
Lastly an Armour Piercing RAM grenade, 4d6 AP5. Against the combat armour it does about 5 lifeblood per shot. Against the battledress it does about 1 SI. On a critical the RAM will kill combat armour (again 28 lifeblood) or do 21 SI to the battledress.
Does that feel like the right amount of seperation in level of protection to anyone?
A marine (12/12/12 physical stats)
Wearing CA is AC19 with AR8, has 12 lifeblood
Wearing BD is AC24 with AR10 and scaling 2 has 25 SI and 12 lifeblood.
Criticals are much rarer against the BD because of the difference in AC. 5 points in most cases is 25% less criticals. This is balanced by the fact that vehicle criticals can be quite devastating.
An autopistol does 0.3 lifeblood per shot (40 shots to kill) against the combat armour, and cannot damage the battledress. On a critical it is an average of 11 lifeblood and 4.5 SI.
An ACR bursting for damage does 5 lifeblood or about 1 SI. On a critical it will generally kill the combat armour (28 lifeblood) or do 15 SI to the battledress.
Lastly an Armour Piercing RAM grenade, 4d6 AP5. Against the combat armour it does about 5 lifeblood per shot. Against the battledress it does about 1 SI. On a critical the RAM will kill combat armour (again 28 lifeblood) or do 21 SI to the battledress.
Does that feel like the right amount of seperation in level of protection to anyone?
In CT this just means that your High Tech BD equipped marines go down in droves to ACR and Gauss Rifle fire. There is no effective difference in actual play between BD and Combat Armor. In MT there is also no real difference between BD and Combat armor. In both of these editions BD costs 5 to 10 times as much as combat armor for no additional protection. How much sense does this really make? Yes it has additional features, but when you get right down to it, it is armor and the primary purpose of armor is to protect the wearer. That is the reason you buy armor. Secondary options on the armor, no matter how gee-whiz doesn't justify this level of additional cost. </font>[/QUOTE]How would adding small servos to power the suit make it more durable in combat? It was my opinion that the point of BD was that it made carrying and useing certain heavy weapons easier PGMP FGMP ect not that is was more protective than earlier CA
From canon pictures we have of BD it is nothing more than powered combat armor.. i believe that may be the actual discription. Is T20 BD or is it small mech armor.
And lastly just because it costs more does not mean it is better at stopping a bullet.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
But at that price increase, it should stop a bullet better. It should be more durable. Adding small servos doesn't justify a 500%+ price increase (CT 1000% Price increase) on a piece of armor. Sure adding sensors and small servos are nice bells and whistles, but the primary function of armor is to stop bullets. If it doesn't stop bullets any better at that price increase then after field testing an initial batch, nobody will buy it or use it. I can equip a Company of troops for the same price as a Squad of Troops and give them the same level of armor protection? So I equip a Company of troops with this new fangled Battledress, or give them Combat Armor and buy some Armored vehicles for them. What Procurement officer in their right mind would ever pay for Battledress? What government would buy Battledress? Is it really 5 to 10 times better? Can that squad equipped with Battledress really do the same thing as a Company in Combat Armor? If they met in battle would the Squad, under normal battlefield conditions, really have an equal chance of winning the battle against a Company in Combat Armor?
In CT and MT there is no reason to ever use Battledress, except to carry a PGMP13 or FGMP14. Equipping 10 times the force in Combat armor is a much better buy. Why use a PGMP-13 or a FGMP-14 when you can, at the next tech level use an PGMP-14 or a FGMP-15. Since you can equip 10 times the soldiers you can always use more than 3 times the number of PGMP-12s and not be concerned about the every other turn rate of fire.
Armor is designed to stop bullets and provide protection to the troops. That is its primary function. Adding bells and whistles that doesn't protect the troops might be nice, but it doesn't go to the primary reason to purchase armor, and certainly, no matter how nice the bells and whistles are, does not justify a cost increase of 500% or more.
I am not saying that the T20 idea is the right one, but at least it addresses the issue that there needs to be a level of protection difference between BD and combat armor.
Further doesn't adding all those small servos, make it a vehicle?
The cost difference between T20 Combat Armor-14 and Battledress described in the THB is nil. Yet the battledress gives you better protection for an increase in size. IMHO a fair trade off. Good battledress designed at TL-14 or 15, with a big budget is about 500% of the cost of Combat armor is medium size and provides in the neighborhood of 500% the protection. In this case a Squad equipped in this armor is, in terms of mobility, and protection, is more than equal to 5 squads equipped with Combat Armor and therefore justifies the cost increase.
No. the primary function of BD is to allow a soldier to easily carry heavy weapons and to operate without getting physically exhausted as fast as a guy in combat armor would.
BD has a full sensor array, full protection from NBC attack and wears like a suit of cloth thanks to the servos. yes in the right situation it is worth the price.
Unless they are looking for a way to easily move PGMP or FGMP around.
Marines that intend to orbital assault a station or spaceport and need the heavy fire power and endurance of a PGMP equipped BD trooper thats who.
The third Imperium.
Yes they can. BD is not for the line grunt it is designed for the quick strike marine. BD allows a small unit of elite soldiers to bring extreme firepower to the fight fast.
Apples and oranges. would a squad of navy seals or special forces soldiers be able to take out a company of infantry under normal battle field conditions?
That is the reason.
Isnt average tech lvl around 12? how common are t14 weapons that every line grunt will be issued one?
again apples and oranges. both have thier place. and see again my question on the commonality of high tech PGMPs. these would not be handed out to every line grunt due to cost and safety issues.
BD trooper will be able to move at a run for hours, can mask his IR and even use chamelion type tech to blend in to his surroundings. BD may contain medi kits and auto drug dispensers to keep the BD trooper up and at em long after the combat armor troop has passed out. one BD trooper with PGMP can threaten and possibly destroy any hard target. BD + PGMP will dominate urban environs.
Why need there be? because one costs more? the best way to protect the troops is through mobility and stealth and BD is much better at the two than combat armor.
Not in my opinion. you drive a vehicle you wear armor.
Both have thier place and the cost is justified.
rhoneycutt
SOC-11
IMTU, battledress is a single occupant vehicle and is very much like the landmates from 'Appleseed'. They are relatively rare, except for carrying squad support weapons, drop troops, and special functions. ...very expensive.
BD is much heavier than, and requires much greater maintainence than combat armor. BD and CA fill different roles...BD has a greater signature than simple CA. BD has a much greater AV, and is slower in many cases, as far as reactions, although ground speed is higher.
CA is not very effective at stopping much beyond ACR's... Given a human's surface area and the mass of armor materials, the best AV possible, without causing encumberance penalties for mass, is about AV=4.
There are as many different models of BD as there are mission requirements.
-----------------------------------
just my opinion...just my MTU
< significantly altered grav tech IMTU >
BD is much heavier than, and requires much greater maintainence than combat armor. BD and CA fill different roles...BD has a greater signature than simple CA. BD has a much greater AV, and is slower in many cases, as far as reactions, although ground speed is higher.
CA is not very effective at stopping much beyond ACR's... Given a human's surface area and the mass of armor materials, the best AV possible, without causing encumberance penalties for mass, is about AV=4.
There are as many different models of BD as there are mission requirements.
-----------------------------------
just my opinion...just my MTU
< significantly altered grav tech IMTU >
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
No. the primary function of BD is to allow a soldier to easily carry heavy weapons and to operate without getting physically exhausted as fast as a guy in combat armor would.
BD has a full sensor array, full protection from NBC attack and wears like a suit of cloth thanks to the servos. yes in the right situation it is worth the price. </font>[/QUOTE]Armor is still armor, even with the bells and whistles. By definition Armor protects something. Of all your ideas as to what BD has. Combat Armor does everything on your list except have a full sensor array. (Which can be put into a the helmet of Combat Armor.) At the price increase you can provide armor support or, Grav Belts for everyone in the uint and still save money. Giving you equal armor and superior mobility. And you can move around all you want using Gravbelts, without getting tired.
Unless they are looking for a way to easily move PGMP or FGMP around. </font>[/QUOTE]Only at TL13, provided that you insist on using the same TL for the unit, are you required to have Battledress to use energey weapons.
Marines that intend to orbital assault a station or spaceport and need the heavy fire power and endurance of a PGMP equipped BD trooper thats who. [/quote] So use a PGMP-12 or a PGMP-14. No Battledress required. The point is I can put 100 Combat armored troopers on that orbital station instead of 10 for the same price.
The third Imperium./quote]
Even with the deep pockets of the Imperium the cost isn't justified.
Yes they can. BD is not for the line grunt it is designed for the quick strike marine. BD allows a small unit of elite soldiers to bring extreme firepower to the fight fast.</font>[/QUOTE]They aren't any faster. In CT or MT it requires something outside the armor to make them any faster. If you buy Combat Armor you get the same protection but for the same or cheaper price you can provide that mobility.
Apples and oranges. would a squad of navy seals or special forces soldiers be able to take out a company of infantry under normal battle field conditions?</font>[/QUOTE]Not an equal comparison at all. Special Forces Soldiers are a different breed, different training. It has nothing to do with Battledress. Those same soldiers are at least as efficient in Combat Armor as they are in Battledress. In CT, or MT there is no practical difference between the Combat Armor and Battledress. Save the money for BD and buy a Grav Belt, to go with your Combat Armor if you want to spend that much, and you still have quite a bit of change. Remember, in CT that a 4 round burst gets two rolls against a BD trooper and either roll of 7+ (With only a Combatrifleman skill of 1.) takes your supertrooper down.
That is the reason.</font>[/QUOTE]Why, you can equip them with a PGMP-14, or a FGMP_15 or a PGMP-12 and not spend the money on Battledress.
Isnt average tech lvl around 12? how common are t14 weapons that every line grunt will be issued one?</font>[/QUOTE]BD is TL13. YOu are talking about no more than TL-12, yet you are also talking about PGMP-13 and FGMP-14. YOu can't have it both ways.
again apples and oranges. both have thier place. and see again my question on the commonality of high tech PGMPs. these would not be handed out to every line grunt due to cost and safety issues.</font>[/QUOTE]How do you figure it is apples and oranges. Same firepower, same armor, cheaper. Besides if you want to limit to TL-12 nobody has BD.
BD trooper will be able to move at a run for hours, can mask his IR and even use chamelion type tech to blend in to his surroundings. BD may contain medi kits and auto drug dispensers to keep the BD trooper up and at em long after the combat armor troop has passed out. one BD trooper with PGMP can threaten and possibly destroy any hard target. BD + PGMP will dominate urban environs. </font>[/QUOTE]Combat Armor has the same options. You can't use all those sensors without giving your position away anyway. The only thing a BD equipped troop can do with "unlimited endurance" is strike more blows in Close Combat at full strength. That is the rules in CT on endurance. I have never seen a CT battle go more than 5 swings. It doesn't require endurance to fire a gun.
Why need there be? because one costs more? the best way to protect the troops is through mobility and stealth and BD is much better at the two than combat armor. </font>[/QUOTE]They both move the same speed. There is no stealth difference. Camoline can be applied to Combat Environment Suits and higher, (to include Vacsuits.) And for less money than BD you can equip the Combat Armor troops with Grav-belts, giving them quite a bit more mobility.
There is no armor difference.
Not in my opinion. you drive a vehicle you wear armor.</font>[/QUOTE]But you are using the servos to move you across the battlefield. It isn't muscle power it is powered armor. It is a small legged vehicle that happens to be directed by the way the occupant moves their body. Still a vehicle. A Bicycle is a vehicle. A Gravbelt is worn, yet still a vehicle. Try again.
Both have thier place and the cost is justified. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You claimed that you prefer CT. So please show me an example in CT where BD is worth 10 times Combat Armor.
If the thought is that BD should only be as defensible as combat armour you can always go down the walking frame path.
Unarmoured batteldress, with the operator in combat armour. Under T20 all that happens is the operator gains some cover (there is a chance incoming fire will hit the frame instead).
This would be a lot smaller and cheaper then what is currently listed as BD.
Unarmoured batteldress, with the operator in combat armour. Under T20 all that happens is the operator gains some cover (there is a chance incoming fire will hit the frame instead).
This would be a lot smaller and cheaper then what is currently listed as BD.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually I like the T20 BD rules. They make sense to me. (In fact they make much more sense to me that CT or MT ever did with the pricing difference between Combat Armor and Battle Dress ever did.)
The pricing issue in T20 is that battledress can be cheaper then combat armour for greater effectiveness. The elite troop requirement (the batteldress proficiency required) makes up for that a little bit, and most BD designs will be more expensive then combat armour, but they don't need to be.
That's a big change from CT where you need the skill to use BD, as well as it being far more expensive, for no gain in protection and only small gains in other areas.
Under T20 legions of BD are the way to go if you can get hold of proficient troops. Marines should end up with BD proficiency from basic training.
In reflection of this BD proficiency is very common IMTU, and is mixed with multiple role BD and a plethora of common designs (light, medium, heavy tactical BD, scout, long scout, lobster, recovery, support, lancelot, superman) starting from TL8 or so. Items such as the walking loader from Aliens are variant BD IMTU.
That's a big change from CT where you need the skill to use BD, as well as it being far more expensive, for no gain in protection and only small gains in other areas.
Under T20 legions of BD are the way to go if you can get hold of proficient troops. Marines should end up with BD proficiency from basic training.
In reflection of this BD proficiency is very common IMTU, and is mixed with multiple role BD and a plethora of common designs (light, medium, heavy tactical BD, scout, long scout, lobster, recovery, support, lancelot, superman) starting from TL8 or so. Items such as the walking loader from Aliens are variant BD IMTU.
Most of your post I have cut as the answer is provided below.
and lastly if your response to BD is to equip everyone with tl14-15 PGMP FGMP (both would be exceedingly rare) why wear armor at all. Its not like combat armor will help if you get smacked with a PGMP. and think of the savings!
Perhaps the issue is our play styles. I run a group of traders /freelance gunslingers while you apparently run a mercenary cadre backed by a high tech world. In your game BD would not be as powerful nor as valuable but in my game where a ex marine has managed to keep a set of tl13 BD that suit is very powerful especially out on the rim where everyone is not packing a tl 15 PGMP or ACR.
No, I am running across the battle field the sensors on the inside of my suit are relaying the needed info to the servos so that I will not be encumbered. At no time does walking or running require focused thought on operating the suit.
Actually it is both. muscle signals translated into mechanical action.
You drive a bike you pilot a gravbelt<assumption> you wear armor. wearing the armor does not require you spend any thought on steering above that given to normal walking or running. you move.. it moves. not at all the same thing but thanks for the laugh. the old "try again" jab never ceases to amuse. If you are incapable of grasping the simple concept that wearing a suit that requires no conscience thought to direct is not the same as operating a vehicle then that would be your problem.
Why would I lie? Not only do I prefer CT i still actually play CT.
First you are overly hung up on unit cost. perhaps the cost is kept artificially high by the imperium to dissuade private purchase? to be fair CT/MT never really did go into detail with exactly what could be on a suit of BD so your guess is as good as mine but the sky is the limit. think mini VRF point defence, built in grav belt, built in drug dispensor, laser resistant coating, high grade sensors and communications solar powerd recharg ability small built in survivor still, ect ect. If the high cost is your main complaint try justifing it. surely a 3I trooper in full BD would have more tricks than standard store bought CA.
and lastly if your response to BD is to equip everyone with tl14-15 PGMP FGMP (both would be exceedingly rare) why wear armor at all. Its not like combat armor will help if you get smacked with a PGMP. and think of the savings!
Perhaps the issue is our play styles. I run a group of traders /freelance gunslingers while you apparently run a mercenary cadre backed by a high tech world. In your game BD would not be as powerful nor as valuable but in my game where a ex marine has managed to keep a set of tl13 BD that suit is very powerful especially out on the rim where everyone is not packing a tl 15 PGMP or ACR.
Which after a little experience on a bike or in a car that has about the same level of thought.
You seem to be arguing that an inproved interface makes a difference in the class of vessel. For conjecture would that mean that controlling a car with an automatic gearbox would no longer be driving?
How about battlepods or wheeled battledress?
