veltyen - Which after a little experience on a bike or in a car that has about the same level of thought.
As wearing cloths? thats the difference as I see it though to be fair when using the G-belt some skill would be required.
veltyen - You seem to be arguing that an inproved interface makes a difference in the class of vessel. For conjecture would that mean that controlling a car with an automatic gearbox would no longer be driving?
Are you serious? so when I put on my armor for SCA fighting I suppose I am piloting a suit of mail? the servos in powered BD inhance muscle movement with mechanical energy they do not replace it.
veltyen - How about battlepods or wheeled battledress?
Vehicles but since I can find rules for neither in CT I went to T4s emperors arsenal where all BD seems to be designed as vehicles if im reading it correctly.
BetterThanLife - Actually running across a battlefield does require quite a bit of focused thought. In that it is similar to running across a Football Field during a game, (Either Football or Soccer, same for this purpose.) only the battlefield is far from flat and a mistep could be quite deadly instead of a simple injury.
Having ran across a few battlefields IRL I disagree with your opinion. Determining where you wish to run and by what route does require thought or direction from a NCO but it is not as if you are concentrating on the actual mechanics of human movement or steering. that comes at an instinctual level. Thus my contention that you wear BD you do not pilot it (except when boosting with G-pack) and that is the bench mark I set for armor vrs vehicle.
BetterThanLife - Which still gains you no speed.
encumberance and speed over time.
How much does combat armor weigh? if we use the tl12 vacc suit for example we find combat armor will weigh ~ 2 kg (a little low IMO)not including any other equipment carried.. lets say standard combat load
Rifle 5.5kg i think
ammo/grenades 2-5kg
misc (knife tooth brush bandages ect)1-5kg
rukpack 1-20kg depending on mission usually dropped at onset of firefight.
your man in combat armor is trying to run about with atleast 11kg of gear on him and possibly more so figure 30+ lbs while the guy in BD in unencumbered by carried gear. who do you think can run for speed and distance?
BetterThanLife - Actually I am not hung up on unit cost as much as I am hung up on Battledress cost effectiveness.
but you are missing that BD is more than armor. it is powered armor with a G-belt or contra grav type device (according to Emperors Arsenal all tl13+ aug BD has built in g-belt type devices) High end sensor and communications equipment battle computers and who knows what else. the G-belt accounts for half of the unit cost. (IMTU all BD has built in G-belts mainly because i like the bounce aspect of starship troopers and because it makes sense)
Lets try to break it down
TL13 BD cost 200k CT book1
G-belt 100k TL12 CT book3
electronic sights 2k TL9 CT book1
medpack with auto dispenser and drugs 1k+ TL7 CT book3
battle computer 100k TL9 CT book4
anti laser aerosol/ smoke launcher 10cr TL10 CT book4
we could go on but so far that 200k suit of BD has at least 203,010 cr worth of gear. I guess the armor value is free. Fact is CT only really hints at what could be in a suit of BD I have just extrapolated my thoughts. they could be wrong but then again maybe not. makes sense to me.
BetterThanLife - Since you aren't going to provide an example of why BD is worth the money, I will provide one as to why it isn't.
troops in BD get +2 to surprise rolls. that can be a fight winner right there.
BetterThanLife - The end all and be all of armor is likely to let the individual wearer to be taken down by a single burst from an Automatic Rifle at long range, when equipped with telescopic sights. That is a TL6 weapon. A skill level of 1 gives you a 5+ to hit and two rolls to do it with.
AR vrs BD -3 ~ scope at lr +4 ~ rifle 1 ~ urban -4 ~ AR at LR +1 ~ total -1 if the BD trooper is evading -2 at medium -4 at long so net result for your example is -5
But wait.. if using the scope the AR is treated like a rifle. the debate becomes can a scope be used with a AR firing a burst since the AR only uses the AR matrix and only gets 2 shots while doing so. common sense says no. secondly since the scope specifies attachment to a rifle or carbine but says nothing about attachment to a auto rifle I would again say no. then again if placed in semi auto mode the auto rifle is treated in all ways as a rifle so... scope can be used with a auto rifle but only in semi auto mode not in full auto mode.
Personal weapons of charted space states "for careful aimed shots at medium range and beyond"
this just enforces my opinion that a scope cannot be used for auto fire.
that changes things
rifle vrs BD at LR -4 -1 ~ scope at lr +4 ~ rifle skill 1 ~ city -4 net -4 to hit -8 if BD is evading.
BetterThanLife - As for evading, he is running without thinking about it. That isn't evading, especially before the unit realizes they are under fire.
Now you are just being silly. Are saying that a BD trooper in battlefield conditions would not be using cover and checking for lines of fire? you were not in the military I would guess to even suggest this. second point BD sensors would probably have you people pin pointed long before the BDs were in engagement range.
BetterThanLife - Then 3D against a single random 2D physical stat, (first hit) generally reducing that stat to 0 and your target unconscious.
Medpack auto injects drugs and BD trooper is back on feet in ten minutes at most less depending on stim drugs or any of a huge range of possibilities.
BetterThanLife - Higher tech weapons are even more dangerous. The end all and be all of personal armor in CT would allow a WWII Platoon to wipe out a TL15 Marine squad, especially if the WWII platoon was in a defensive position, in a matter of less than one combat round.
BD mobility and sensors combined with the BDs ability to mask its own location will remove any advantage your ww2 sqaud may have for its defensive position. The BD squad will hit from behind or above generally fire first (+2 to surprise rolls) fire faster (combat drugs) and have the firepower to reduce your squad to dust before they even know what is happening.
I find that not a very effective use of your military budget.
By that thinking neither was the SR71 or the F22. What you seem to lack is imagination and the ability to guess what "various kinds of electronic assistance -CT 1 " and "other capabilities classified -T4 and T4 emperors arsenal" might mean. "Known abilities include full life support anti grav movement tactical communications broad spectrum sensing capabilities limited point defence versus hand launched missles. -T4"
BetterThanLife - This isn't a high tech Merc unit. This is common garden variety bandits on a backwater world. (TL-5 Rifles are not quite as good but they aren't bad.)
No what you have is charred grease and ashes. Chances are your squad or company would not have even returned fire before they died.
BetterThanLife - And your rule for running for an unlimited distance? Where did that come from? I have looked through LBB1-6. The only CT rules I come up with for Battledress and Endurance are from LBB1 page 42.
The distance a person in BD can run is the same as a unencumbered person can run. that distance is sure to be more than a encumbered person in combat armor and it is common sense that the unencumbered person would run faster in addition to outdistancing the poor slob in combat armor. no need to run around obstacles as you can just grav boost over them not to mention that the BD trooper could just fly if he wanted useing the G-belt at around 100kph and is limited only by the BDs power supply. My rule is common sense
