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Canonical Shipyards

First this about starport numbers: the numbers are Imperium-wide. There is only one Yard 17, one Yard 11, and so on. Some might also have a name, but this is not a requirement and is certainly not true for all of them.
Sounds reasonable. As I said above, I think the 'Yard <number>' yards all have something in common, and that something almost has to be the Imperium. I suggest they're all the result of one Imperial subsidy scheme or another.

(As an aside, I found this: the "Tail number" of the Empress Nicholle is 55927! Hooray, a datum! (JTAS 04, Gazelle, second or third paragraph)).
What a low number! ;)

I suppose most class A starports have a shipyard, thus there's a named or numbered shipyard at every class A port.
All worlds with Class A starports have at least one shipyard. It's part of the definition of a Class A starport. But I think many worlds with Class A starports have multiple shipyards. Some large, some small. (That's why I introduced Ancker Shipyards on Regina as the builders of my Golden Griffins).


Yard 17 built 9 of the Kinunir, so it must be in the Spinward Marches.
This is revisionist theory. Not that I dissaprove, mind you, but you're assuming that the Kinunirs were a limited production run. However, perhaps we could expand the limit to cover the whole Domain of Deneb? I'd especially like to get Yard 17 out of the Marches.

I dug out my own notes about shipyards, and here's what I'd come up with:

Clan Severn is located at Rhylanor.
Ling Standard is located at Mora.
Yard 11 is located somewhere in the Spinward Marches.
Yard 16 is located at Markatch.

I can't remember what made me decide that Yard 11 was in the Marches, but I'm sure I had a reason. I'll try to remember.


Hans
 
When did he do that?

"Awhile back". In the dusty annals of time. But it doesn't matter, TCS is still an interesting background.

All worlds with Class A starports have at least one shipyard. It's part of the definition of a Class A starport. But I think many worlds with Class A starports have multiple shipyards. Some large, some small. (That's why I introduced Ancker Shipyards on Regina as the builders of my Golden Griffins).

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Yard 17 must be in the Marches] is revisionist theory. Not that I dissaprove, mind you, but you're assuming that the Kinunirs were a limited production run. However, perhaps we could expand the limit to cover the whole Domain of Deneb? I'd especially like to get Yard 17 out of the Marches.

Limited production run, yes. Adv 1, p10: Of the 24 authorized units, 20 were completed prior to project cancellation.

Local production, likely yes. Adv 1, p10: While most of the vessels remain in service in the Spinward Marches, some few
have been lost, disposed of, or otherwise taken from service.


Therefore, Yard 17, Mars, and GSBAG shipyards are most likely in the Marches. But, it's not impossible that (for example) Yard 17 is in the Magash system, in Deneb.

It's possible that originally all the Kinuniriin were assumed to be built in the Regina subsector, or very nearby.

Ling Standard is located at Mora.

LSP at Mora sounds reasonable.
 
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First this about starport numbers: the numbers are Imperium-wide. There is only one Yard 17, one Yard 11, and so on. Some might also have a name, but this is not a requirement and is certainly not true for all of them.

And there are 19 Imperial Navy Depots in the Imperium. Yards 1 through 19 perhaps?
 
And there are 19 Imperial Navy Depots in the Imperium. Yards 1 through 19 perhaps?
No, there's a Yard 22. But roughly one Yard <number> per sector sounds right enough. I still say it's some sort of subsidy scheme. Probably goes to one of the most important worlds in each sector.


Hans
 
Why do you assume every Azhanti was built in the Marches? That sounds extremely unlikely to me.

Not only unlikely, I believe it contradicts the Suppliment which came in the boxed game. Reading through the history of the class it seems clear to me that they were all originally constructed outside the Marches. Many were later transferred there and rebuilt/modified by local yards, but I don't think any were built there.

(Unfortunately I don't have my CT CD with me . . . )
 
[...]it seems clear to me that [The Lightning-class Cruisers] were all originally constructed outside the Marches.

I believe You are correct. Let's pretend I never made that mistake...


And there are 19 Imperial Navy Depots in the Imperium. Yards 1 through 19 perhaps?

That's a very clever interpretation. But note that there is no Depot in the Marches, and Yard 17 is probably in the Marches. Scroll down for more thoughts...


No, there's a Yard 22. But roughly one Yard <number> per sector sounds right enough. I still say it's some sort of subsidy scheme. Probably goes to one of the most important worlds in each sector.

Those are also clever interpretations, and may be true. However, there is no indication of this, and in fact some of the named shipyards may also be "numbered", though it's not a requirement. Hence there could be a lot of "numbered" yards.

Therefore, I suggest that yard numbers are part of an Imperial registration system, and are therefore related to Imperial interests, but it is not clear that those interests are any different than that of named starports.

Three numbered yards (11, 16, 22) are important enough to produce Imperial warships, while one numbered yard (17) might only be regionally important in the navy's eyes (note that it was scheduled to produce a significant percentage of the Kinunirrin, more than Clan Severn on Rhylanor, so it's not a trivial yard).

At the same time, a number of named yards are just as important as the numbered yards -- Gashidda, for example.


Yard 17 is on Efate

Well, maybe not, but a case can be made. Yard 17 has the navy's local interest, and produces Imperial navy ships, so an attached naval base is reasonable. It built a large number of Kinunir, which figure prominently in the Regina subsector, so it's probably on a TL13 world.

Efate is of strategic importance, and that plus the naval base plus the Type A starport just about guarantees an important shipyard. And the only shipyard we have recorded for Efate is a ratty little General Products mini-yard capable of producing 600t ships. Hans speculates that a starport may have more than one shipyard, and Efate is a prime candidate for that.
 
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And there are 19 Imperial Navy Depots in the Imperium. Yards 1 through 19 perhaps?

No, there's a Yard 22. But roughly one Yard <number> per sector sounds right enough. I still say it's some sort of subsidy scheme. Probably goes to one of the most important worlds in each sector.

Currently there are 19 Imperial Navy Depots. Perhaps there used to be a few more and that explains Yard 22. Or maybe some numbers were skipped in deference to some tradition or superstition.

Simply work-around suggestions as I like the idea of them being Naval Depot Yards. Only a little more than the subsidy scheme idea :)

Maybe even Yard 17 (if at Efate, or wherever) is (or was) intended or scheduled to be upgraded in standing to a Naval Depot and that's why it was given a number?
 
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Those are also clever interpretations, and may be true. However, there is no indication of this, and in fact some of the named shipyards may also be "numbered", though it's not a requirement. Hence there could be a lot of "numbered" yards.
Sure, it's possible. And it's possible that there are no Yard 1, Yard 2, etc. But its most likely that the yards involved in the Azhanti production run was a representative selection of the available yards. Given that the numbers we hear of are 11, 16, 17, and 22, it's quite possible that there are more than the 24 I suggested. 28 or 30 or 32, perhaps. But probably not 40 or 50.

Therefore, I suggest that yard numbers are part of an Imperial registration system, and are therefore related to Imperial interests, but it is not clear that those interests are any different than that of named starports.
Here we're down to personal opinions. No, it's not clear how they're different from named shipyards (not starports), but the very fact that they have a uniform, Imperium-wide naming scheme indicates that there is some difference. If you don't like the idea of shipyards established by the Imperium in partnership with a member world (or even private enterprise), please come up with another explanation.

Three numbered yards (11, 16, 22) are important enough to produce Imperial warships, while one numbered yard (17) might only be regionally important in the navy's eyes (note that it was scheduled to produce a significant percentage of the Kinunirrin, more than Clan Severn on Rhylanor, so it's not a trivial yard).
It also produced five Azhantis, so I don't understand why you think it's of less importance than the other numbered yards.

At the same time, a number of named yards are just as important as the numbered yards -- Gashidda, for example.
Yes, of course. That's the basis for my guesstimate of roughly 100 major shipyards across the Imperium. All the named shipyards that produce Azhantis would be just as important as numbered yards.


Yard 17 is on Efate

Well, maybe not, but a case can be made. Yard 17 has the navy's local interest, and produces Imperial navy ships, so an attached naval base is reasonable. It built a large number of Kinunir, which figure prominently in the Regina subsector, so it's probably on a TL13 world.
As it produced Azhantis, it would have had a space TL of 14 back in 1000. I don't mind putting it on Efate on that account, since I believe Efate has a space TL of 15 in the Classic Era, but others may object.

The reason why I don't want Yard 17 in the Marches is that we already have 17 Azhantis being produced in the Marches at Clan Severn, Ling Standard, and Yard 11. That's a sizable chunk of the whole production run. Adding the five that was produced at Yard 17...

Efate is of strategic importance, and that plus the naval base plus the Type A starport just about guarantees an important shipyard.
Or a few dozen medium shipyards.

And the only shipyard we have recorded for Efate is a ratty little General Products mini-yard capable of producing 600t ships. Hans speculates that a starport may have more than one shipyard, and Efate is a prime candidate for that.
Bear in mind that al the info about General Shipyards are pre-HG and thus pertains to a non-existent small-ship universe. To fit in with the big-ship OTU, those numbers should be upped by one or two orders of magnitude. It really is quite ridiculous to speak of an important megacorporate subsidiary that builds one or two 600T ships per year. If General Shipyards really only do 600 and 1000 T ships, then it's too small to be worth the amount of notice it has been getting.


Hans
 
As you said, we're in opinion territory here, and within sight of a Quixotic holy war or two.
 
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As you said, we're in opinion territory here, and within sight of a Quixotic holy war or two.
Not really. Whoever first does a decent writeup of numbered yards gets to decide. Note the qualifier 'decent', though ;).

EDIT: However, what annoys me (a tiny bit) is that you object to my suggestion without providing one of your own. I really don't think that the notion of the Imperium subsidizing a few yards here and there is inherently bad. It would be different if you had a better idea (that is, an idea that you thought was better ;)), but if you don't, why object to this one?


Hans
 
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Currently there are 19 Imperial Navy Depots. Perhaps there used to be a few more and that explains Yard 22. Or maybe some numbers were skipped in deference to some tradition or superstition.

Or even a few Depots with more than one yard, or civilian yards that routinely do naval work - so having a 'work number' for budget purposes.

Simply work-around suggestions as I like the idea of them being Naval Depot Yards. Only a little more than the subsidy scheme idea :)

Thanks

Maybe even Yard 17 (if at Efate, or wherever) is (or was) intended or scheduled to be upgraded in standing to a Naval Depot and that's why it was given a number?

Might be stretching it a bit - a bit too close to the front lines to be a Navy Depot. IIRC there is internal unrest on Efate that might impact the security of a fully-fledged depot.
 
EDIT: However, what annoys me (a tiny bit) is that you object to my suggestion without providing one of your own.

Shipyards having a number could be just assigned one "because", and they have no consequence beyond having been touched by Imperial bureaucracy in a minor way that named starports have not. My own suggestion is: I don't know. I am concerned about attaching a meaning that isn't there, but that's how I feel about it today.

Marc said:
Originally no rhyme or reason.

I think its one form of designation of a "Ship"Yard numbered from 1 to N within the Imperium.
But not all Yards are numbered; some must be named.

So there is only one Yard 17 in the Imperium.
 
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numbered Yards

Sumarizing a few possibilities:
1- the owners have no imagination
2- Its the govt... there is a thought. So the Imperium supports the startup (or continues) support certain yards that would otherwise be financially unacceptable. If released from Imperial control, after decades, the locals quickly give it a name. I may have a number for financial purposes but a unique name suffices.
3- they we're created or subsidized to support some unique development but are not managed by the Imperium directly. For example, what if the numbered yards we're owned by a specific Interstellar Corp.


Since, the Navy takes an entire system for a depot this would not typically be linked to yards just because they're numbered.
 
I did have a thought about Yard 17: if it's in the Marches, then the Zhodani will notice, and perhaps the Imperium would want to have built many of the AHL's there for that purpose (even if the ships were then sent off to Solomani space).

I note that the shipyards from AHL are otherwise located near Solomani space, or near Gateway.
 
The two possibilities that I have firmed up in my mind regarding the numbered yards are these:

1) They are run by a megacorp, i.e. they are 'LSP Yard number 17'. As that's too long to fit on a form it gets shortened to 'Yard 17'.

2) They are run expressly for the Navy, to ensure that it always has a certain amount of capacity available for building. Thus 'Yard 17' stands for Navy Yard 17. (This riffs off Hans's subsidy idea)

On the subject of 2, the Royal Navy often found it difficult to arrange for the construction of large ships postwar as most large slips were booked up for large commercial designs, often for years ahead. Perhaps the Imperial Navy also encountered this problem in their past and pushed for the creation of subsidized yards to counter this problem?
 
All worlds with Class A starports have at least one shipyard. It's part of the definition of a Class A starport. But I think many worlds with Class A starports have multiple shipyards. Some large, some small. (That's why I introduced Ancker Shipyards on Regina as the builders of my Golden Griffins).

Golden Griffins? Please tell us more...
 
Golden Griffins? Please tell us more...
Golden Gryphons, actually. I misremembered. It's a deckplans article I wrote for JTAS Online, featuring jump-1, jump-2, and jump-3 versions of a 400T unstreamlined merchant ship. The jump-1 version is the Placid Ox class, the jump-2 version is the Golden Gryphon class and the jump-3 vesrion is the Soaring Eagle class.

You can find it here: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?792.

Specs are in GT terms, but the deckplans themselves will work for any version, of course. (In fact, the deckplans were critizised for being of CT crudeness (I myself prefer to think of it as simplicity ;)).


Hans
 
I'm gathering info on Traveller shipyards that appear in print. I've given the ones I found arbitrary codes, but haven't located most of the yards. If anyone has this information at their fingertips, I'd appreciate the help.

I'll edit this post directly with changes.

(What is "Yard 16" and "Yard 17" et al? Are they military? World-owned? Is there some other rhyme or reason to just having a number? As in Yard 2, Glisten?)

Code:
Marches

AH  		AHG, AG             Lanth, TL11 ?
BY  		Bilstein Yards 	    Glisten, TL15
CS  		Clan Severn 	    Rhylanor, TL15
GY  		General Shipyards   Regina, TL12 (to 5000t)
GYe 		General Shipyards   Efate, TL13 (to 600t)
GYp 		General Shipyards   Pixie (to 600t)
GS  		GSB, AG             Tenalphi, TL14, et al
LS  		Ling Standard       Rhylanor, TL15
MA  		Mars                Jewell, TL12 ?
NA  		Naasirka 	    Aramis (annual mtc primarily)
PB  		Piorabanti          Risek, TL10 ?
SB  		Sabaald             Adabicci, TL11 ?
17  		Yard 17             Efate ?
ZG  		Zagado              ?

Elsewhere

AE  		Arshani, Etran      not the marches
CO  		Commonal            not the marches
DV  		Delvani             Solomani Rim
GA  		Gashidda Nos. 1-3   Gashidda
HL  		Highlans            not the marches
TK  		Tukera              not the marches
VL  	  	Vlandian Nos. 1-2   Vland
11  		Yard 11 No. 1       not the marches
16  		Yard 16 Nos. 1-4    not the marches
22  		Yard 22 No. 1       not the marches

Lets Add a few more to the list.

Diversified Dynamics Design and Shipyard (DDD&S): From High Passage 1 pg5, High Passage 2 page9
Established 1058 Located at Galiano/Jayne Old Expanses sector with production divisions at Serpila/Quinoid and L'steich/Sarid, producing small craft and large naval vessels.

Yard 6 and Yard 7 from HP1:pg5 Produced Tral Wolf light cruisers

Magellan Orbital Yards (Stellar Reaches Fanzine 4 Pg19-20)
located Cooke/Hebrin 2030 A868837-9 procuces smallcraft and small ships
 
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