Canonical Shipyards
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Theophilus
SOC-13
And let's not forget DDD&S's rival
Stone Dockyards located at Adrian/Nicosia, Also from High Passage 2, pg9
Stone Dockyards located at Adrian/Nicosia, Also from High Passage 2, pg9
Excellent observation, thank you.
Could be explained by downrating the TL of the Kinunirs. They don't need to be more than TL13 to have jump-4. With a High common TL of 12, Regina's Space TL can easily be 13. Having it be 15 is a bit more of a stretch.
Hans
Also a good observation, and one I've thought about as well. But TL 15 does tend to confer some advantages.
Maybe shipyards aren't at the TL of the host world... maybe components for small starships are commodities rather than of local manufacture...
Major B
SOC-14 1K
That adjustment has one major wrinkle - one of the most important elements of the Kinunir design was the black globe which requires TL15 or higher.
I won't get into a discussion on how ineffective a UCP-1 BGG is, as that has been well covered elsewhere. It is still an important feature of the ship and critical to at least one of the plots in the adventure.
This could be answered by making the ship itself a TL13 design, adjusting all components to match that, save the BGG which can be explained as a prototype derived from the discovered ancient tech that is 'dropped' into the TL13 design. Does that make sense?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
And that is obviously wrong. High Guard clearly states ships are built at the TL of the world doing the build. Regina at the time was TL A. So General couldn't build a Kinunir there. Nobody could. Period. Not unless there were a TL A version of it.
Even the SMC retcon/update only makes it barely believable at TL C.
Regina at the time was said to be TL 10. If SMC is a retcon, Regina never was TL10. That's the whole point of a retcon. For various reasons (such as the total implausibility of a world advancing two tech levels in six years) I consider TL10 to be highly implausible (Even TL12 is, IMO, pushing it).
Hans
Nice double post, Rob. 
Look regardless what one thinks of the world's TL the Navy base will always be of the standard TL currently used by Imperial Forces.
Check this text from page 436, Technology, Chapter 26 (emphasis added):
Thus I say again, we pay our taxes to the Emperor's Treasury for a reason, so we can have TL-F Navy Yards, Bases and Depots and their associated industries, even if the world itself is not up to TL-F, it will after all trickle down to the world if it should wish to invest the RU.
Also one thing to consider is that most colony worlds will almost certainly have a higher TL in space compared to the world itself. The colony will arrive at the world in nice interstellar starships and then start setting up the infrastructure on the world, the infrastructure in space is already set up. This will continue if the world gets regular traffic, it will need to keep its space/starport up to snuff or possible lose the traffic. It is not so necessary on the world.
Just my thoughts as a student of the Psychohistory of the Imperium,
Magnus.
Look regardless what one thinks of the world's TL the Navy base will always be of the standard TL currently used by Imperial Forces.
Check this text from page 436, Technology, Chapter 26 (emphasis added):
For example,
The Tech Level for an object is often appended to an
object name. Rifle-5 is a tech level 5 firearm. Comm-10 is a
tech level 10 communicator.
Tech Level is often used to describe a world or a society.
Regina (the world) is TL-10. The Aslan Colonies which span
the Great Rift are TL-12.
The Tech Level for an object is often appended to an
object name. Rifle-5 is a tech level 5 firearm. Comm-10 is a
tech level 10 communicator.
Tech Level is often used to describe a world or a society.
Regina (the world) is TL-10. The Aslan Colonies which span
the Great Rift are TL-12.
Thus I say again, we pay our taxes to the Emperor's Treasury for a reason, so we can have TL-F Navy Yards, Bases and Depots and their associated industries, even if the world itself is not up to TL-F, it will after all trickle down to the world if it should wish to invest the RU.
Also one thing to consider is that most colony worlds will almost certainly have a higher TL in space compared to the world itself. The colony will arrive at the world in nice interstellar starships and then start setting up the infrastructure on the world, the infrastructure in space is already set up. This will continue if the world gets regular traffic, it will need to keep its space/starport up to snuff or possible lose the traffic. It is not so necessary on the world.
Just my thoughts as a student of the Psychohistory of the Imperium,
Magnus.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
In my opinion, no.
The way I worked it out (fwiw)...
What was done was General used their TL 10 Regina yard to assemble the Kinunir ships using some components supplied by its TL 13 yards at Pixie and Efate (per rules in TCS iirc). The Pixie and Efate yards were too small (600ton capacity) to build the Kinunir (but they had the requisite TL for the job*) while their Regina yard had the capacity (5000tons) but not the TL.
The choice comes down to accepting the rules (build must be done at world TL) or the colour (TL 15 or TL 13 built at TL 10) and making one fit the other. That the game designers and or writers let colour trump rules is imo wrong on so many levels. That they didn't need to is even worse. Though I suspect a large part of the problem is that the Kinunir was designed with draft work for 1st ed High Guard and some of the rules weren't hard coded yet.
There are TL 15 yards in the Marches that could have built the Kinunirs. Or they could have said that General's Pixie and Efate yards built them (TL 13 will work) by simply saying they had the capacity. The capacity limits of 600tons and 5000tons are so obviously Book 2 and out of date even with the final 1st ed High Guard that was used to build the Kinunir anyway.
* excepting the TL 15 IN provided BGs and experimental AI shoehorned into the TL 13 model/7 computer, and maybe the PA barbettes from HG1
The Kinunir is a bad example to try to build any concrete canon on
It's unresolved because none of us has the authority to resolve it. What do you expect from us? What you have here are three mutually contradictory statements[*] (with a couple of variations). The matter can be resolved by changing any one of the three. Each of us probably prefer that one particular statement be changed, but no logic can point to one of them and say "That's wrong".
[*] a) Regina's TL is 12 (or 10).
.....b) Kinunirs are TL 15 (or 13).
.....c) Regina built several Kinunirs.
.....b) Kinunirs are TL 15 (or 13).
.....c) Regina built several Kinunirs.
The only way to resolve the point is for Marc Miller or one of his minions to decide how to resolve it and publish it. (And that resolves it only if what he decides is not self-contradictory; if he says "all three statements are true, we're back where we started).
Regina's High Common TL:
Regina is TL 10
Regina is TL 12
Regina's Space TL:
Regina's Space TL is the same as its High Common TL
Regina's Space TL is one TL higher than its High Common TL
Regina's Space TL is two TLs higher than its High Common TL
Regina's Space TL is three TLs higher than its High Common TL
Regina's Space TL is four TLs higher than its High Common TL
Regina's Space TL is five TLs higher than its High Common TL
Regina's Space TL is one TLs higher than its High Common TL
The Kinunir's TL:
The Kinunir's are TL 10
The Kinunir's are TL 11
The Kinunir's are TL 12
The Kinunir's are TL 13
The Kinunir's are TL 14
The Kinunir's are TL 15
Pick one from each list. NB! Some picks are mutually contradictory!
My own picks are:
Regina has a High common TL of 12. Reason: Regina is a rich world and a trade hub and has been the most important world in the region for a millenia. It's actually kind of unlikely that it would have a TL as low as 12, but it's concievable and it's canon. 10 is right out.
Regina's Space TL is one TL higher than its High Common TL. Reason: The rules claim that individual TLs can be up to two levels higher than the High Common, and TL13 is needed to build jump-4 ships.
The Kinunir's are TL 13. Reason: The Kinunirs are jump-4 ships, so that's the lowest TL possible (The black globes are a special circumstance).
Regina's Space TL is one TL higher than its High Common TL. Reason: The rules claim that individual TLs can be up to two levels higher than the High Common, and TL13 is needed to build jump-4 ships.
The Kinunir's are TL 13. Reason: The Kinunirs are jump-4 ships, so that's the lowest TL possible (The black globes are a special circumstance).
But that's all it is, personal picks, an opinion (An informed opinion, I'd like to think, but still just an opinion). And all the debate in the world is not going to convince someone who'd prefer it that Regina never built any Kinunirs in the first place.
Hans
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For one dreadful moment I thought that Mongoose had ret-retconned Regina's TL back down to 10, but checking up in MGT:The Spinward Marches shows that Regina is TL12.
Hans
(BTW, the Aslan worlds which span the Great Rift run the same gamut of tech levels as any other Aslan worlds).
Gents,
An odd thought...
If, as canon states, a planetary or other government can import components and assemble a warship without the presence of a Class A starport and the yard associated with it, why can't a TL12 planetary or other government import TL15 components to assemble a TL15 warship?
Regards,
Bill
An odd thought...
If, as canon states, a planetary or other government can import components and assemble a warship without the presence of a Class A starport and the yard associated with it, why can't a TL12 planetary or other government import TL15 components to assemble a TL15 warship?
Regards,
Bill
That's not what canon states. It states that any world can buy ('procure') ships from any worlds with class A starports in its subsector. It also states that it can build ships at its own TL regardless of its starport type. Two different ways to get ships.
Hans
Hans,
You can "procure" a ship, but not the components?
Sure.
Tell me, when that world "procures" the ship from the other world's class A shipyard, does it come with repair parts? Does the ship have to return to the class A shipyard for annual maintenance or can the owning world perform that at home too?
Two known ways to get ships.
As someone who has served in, worked in, and visited shipyards for over 25 years now, I can assure you there are other ways to get ships and the types of ships than the two methods that happen to be listed in canon.
Once again, you're handcuffing yourself with an overly literal interpretation of the rules.
Traveller's rules are about exciting adventures in the 57th Century and not about perfectly detailing every jot and tittle of the 57th Century.
Regards,
Bill
Of course not. But that's not what the canonical rules you were referring to says.
The rules don't say. Personally, I'd say that depends on whether or not the world has an adequate ship repair and maintenance facility of its own. There's nothing strange about a mid-tech world getting its ships maintained at the original shipyard, is there? That's just a question of logistics. The world just has to take into account that its ships are 'down' for five weeks out of every year.
The thing is, now we're dipping down below the resolution of the rules. A world can build its own ships if it has the requisite TL even without a Class A starport, or so the rules say. But presumably only if it has invested in the infrastructure to build a military shipyard. Otherwise, it will have to spend time and money developing such an infrastructure first.
Indeed. And by no means an exhaustive list. Unless there's an Imperial edict that forbids worlds in one subsector from selling ships to worlds in another, the 'buy ships from worlds in its own subsector' rule is a simplification of reality. Presumably there's nothing to prevent Regina or Efate from buying ships from Rhylanor, but quite possible practical or political factors chip in to make such a choice unlikely. Contrariwise, Regina may be unwilling to buy ships from Efate for political reasons.
No, I'm saying that canon doesn't say what you claim it says. That's something quite different. A world might theoretically be able to build a shipyard and import parts and assemble them, but the canon rules suggest that this would be an unusual occurrence. I doubt it would be cheaper than buying the ships assembled by the shipyard that already knows how to build ships.
Hans
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Where? I don't doubt you, but I don't recall having read that particular bit of canon and would like to.
Presumably this is another simplified game rule. Maybe it reflects the fact that specific tech levels can be up to two higher than High Common. Or the difference between mass produced items and special one offs. But if you're talking about plain, vanilla, what do people on this world use in their daily lives, items, anything that's of a higher TL than the world would have to be imports, wouldn't it? It doesn't have to be specified, it goes without saying, being part of the definition of tech levels.
Hans
The Kinunir is a bad example to try to build any concrete canon on
A good observation, but it [a high TL Imperial Navy small starship built at a low TL Imperial Navy? port] might give us an unintentional hook into a solution. See below.
This is probably part of the solution. Forthcoming.
That is not an odd thought at all, Bill. Parts can be imported. Imagine all those pre-fab Book 2 jump drive modules sitting on a tarmac, crated, waiting to be shipped...
Probably: Hulls are not imported. Shipyards build components at the world's TL. Components other than the hull, possibly including armor, can be imported.
Thus, the Kinunir is a TL 12 hull with imported components added (e.g. jump drive, sensors, weapons, perhaps even armor).
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