Canonical Shipyards

[Starviking]

With all this mention of rules it occurs to me to ask, if some of these rules are coming from TCS - then don't they apply to isolated pocket empires? Import of higher tech would seem to be more limited in that case.

Taking a RL example, Northern Ireland built the Royal Navy's largest warship - HMS Eagle. It was a modern and capable carrier - but could it have been built in an independent Northern Ireland? Not in a month of Sundays.

 

[rancke]

Taking a RL example, Northern Ireland built the Royal Navy's largest warship - HMS Eagle. It was a modern and capable carrier - but could it have been built in an independent Northern Ireland? Not in a month of Sundays.

Of course not. The shipyard would have been closed on Sundays.



Hans

 

[FreeTrav]

The next logical question is "what defines a ship as TL <whatever>?", to which I am forced to reply, "the hull". From a design point of view, there's little about a hull to indicate a tech level, except perhaps integral armor; however, that's the most likely answer.

I'm going to disagree with you on this - not as to the likelihood of your answer being correct, but as to what the correct answer should be.

My answer would be that the TL of a ship is "the lowest TL that can perform all maintenance required to keep the ship 'afloat'". That's going to depend, in part, on how you define ship's systems, but at a really basic level, you've got the following:

1. Hull (including armor)
2. Jump drive
3. Maneuver drive
4. Computer, electronics, and life-support
5. Weapons

Since weapons are not required to keep a ship afloat in Traveller, they can be ignored for figuring the TL of the ship. The rest, however, are all required, and the highest TL among those defines the nominal TL of the ship. So, even if everything except the Jump drive is at TL 11, but the Jump drive is at TL 13, the ship is a TL13 ship.

(Naturally, if a component doesn't exist for a ship - such as Jump drive in a SDB - that component can be ignored.)

This means that the minimum tech level for any Jump-capable ship is TL9, since that's when J1 becomes available. A TL8 Class A shipyard can build SDBs at TL8, but the jump drive has to be imported, and makes the ship a TL9/11/12/13/14/15 (depending on Jump capability) ship.

There have been arguments in the past that say that once a component reaches 'engineering' status, it can be produced and maintained at one TL lower than it takes to invent it. If you accept that argument as valid for YTU, then the TL of a given ship is one lower than it would otherwise be. That's OK, too, provided that you apply the rule consistently.

(The main argument against that kind of rule typically involves components that are either impossible or too expensive to maintain/repair [e.g., microprocessors]. It's a dicey argument at best, because 'too expensive' gets into other economic factors, involving cost of production at their source, cost of importing, cost of local supporting infrastructure, cost of competing technologies, and so on. In some ways, Eric Flint's 1632 (Ring of Fire) series and Grantville Gazettes illustrate this. Thus, while some sub-Saharan countries could construct and maintain a wired phone system, it is still cheaper to hire foreigners to construct and maintain a local cellular system, and purchase disposable cellphones from those foreigners. Applied to the Traveller universe, it will mean that some worlds will, if undergoing a self-driven development plan, skip over entire technologies in the process of self-upgrading.)

 

[Antony]

It is true that the HG hull is unarmoured but it is still made out of something (I missed that it had armour factor 0). Later versions have it as bonded superdense which is available from TL14 onwards. I don't have Adventure 1 Kinunir in front of me so I cannot check what it says about the vessels hull material in that.

On other odd things, where would the refitted AHLs fit? At least these were refitted at shipyards which presumable had the requsitie TL15 capacity. but they of course ended up as mixed TL14 and 15 designs. The Voroshilef's ended up even worse built at TL13 they had at some point had TL15 power plants and later TL16 spinal disintegrators fitted. Why would the imperium do something like that I wonder.

In Australia when we purchases the F/A18 Hornets the first 2 were built in the US and were acquired with a technological "uplift" allowing the rest to be built here using a mix of local and imported parts. As far as I can tell it had no effect on the overall tech level of Australia.

Perhaps the Kinunirs were "assembled" on Regina from kit parts shipped in as part of an economic and technological stimulas package and were strictly speaking not built there at all, ie insert girder A into slot B that sort of thing.

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't have Adventure 1 Kinunir in front of me so I cannot check what it says about the vessels hull material in that.

Anthony,

Quickly scanning A:1 doesn't show any data at with regards to the hull's composition. There's nothing listed in either the general specifications or the walk-through.

Was there a canonical MT work up of the ship? That would list the hull material. A TNE version of the same would too.

There's this line from the first 'situation" The Scrap Heap: The hull is basically an empty shell, lying cocked at a slight angle and dull orange with rust.

Does bonded superdense rust?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Antony]

The Canonical version of the Kinunir which appeared in TNE appears to have been a derated version. It is now classed as a colonial cruiser. The black globe has gone and the laser weaponry has been gutted only 4 laser turrets being carried (it may be possible to fit another 4 however). The PA barbettes have gone becoming very nasty large lasers. The computers are now TL15. I put the stats for this version up on my website

http://www.skaran.net/bannerscampaign/equipment/craft/imperial/kinunir.html

It does not state but I believe this is supposed to represent the later construction undertaken over the other side of the Imperium as examples ended up in the hands of the Solee Empire.

 

[far-trader]

...There's this line from the first 'situation" The Scrap Heap: The hull is basically an empty shell, lying cocked at a slight angle and dull orange with rust.

Does bonded superdense rust?

Possibly?

Superdense is just (artificially) partially collapsed (highly compressed) conventional metal and Bonded Superdense is the same material treated to enhance the electron bonds.

So maybe, given enough time and exposure it could rust, if it were an iron based metal. Another type of metal would more properly be said to oxidize. Perhaps we can take from this that it is iron based, probably a type of steel.

 

[Whipsnade]

And if we ever get to that point, you're welcome to tell us all about it.

Hans,

I think we already have and have done so on many topics other than the oddities surrounding the Kinunir.

Let me further explain something first. By "metagame lies", I'm referring to the Hobby having to craft a certain type excuse and/or explanation after the fact. When the canonical information involved was written, it was written "straight". It was never supposed to be deliberate misinformation or mistaken data or anything like that. When this "straight" information doesn't "work" for whatever reason, the Hobby explains or excuses that by saying it's a "lie", by saying it really is deliberate misinformation or mistaken data.

That's what I'm referring to when I write about crafting metagame lies to excuse in-game mistakes or changes. We're moving what was originally intended as straight information or descriptions into the category of in-game misinformation to explain or excuse mistakes or changes.

Case in point: The Kinunirs as "battlecruisers". A:1 refers to the vessels as battlecruisers many times. Here's one of several passages; Originally conceived as vanguard cruisers, the Imperial succession of 1071 (and the associated policy changes) resulted in their conversion to colonial cruisers (euphemistically called battle cruisers).

Now, the vessels were battlecruisers, colonial cruisers, or vanguard cruisers in a LBB:2 setting. After HG2 however calling them any type cruisers is a sick joke. That means the Hobby now must swing into action and craft explanations and excuses as to why the A:1 verbiage still "works".

I, for example, say that the battlecruiser label was deliberate misinformation on the IN's part to obscure the black globe testing program. Others say the label is the result of misunderstandings by the general public. Whatever the explanation or excuse is, the mechanism is still the same: What was originally conceived of as straight information is now a "lie".

We decided to craft a meta-game lie in order to explain or excuse an in-game change. If we viewed Traveller more as game, we would have said The rules have changed and we needn't explain the Kinunir's designation as it was made in the context of the previous rules.

However, because we view Traveller more as a model - and incorrectly IMHO - we believe we must reconcile the differing descriptions that are result of changes and mistakes within and between rules versions. That leads us to say The Kinunirs are called battlecruisers because the IN is hiding their true nature or The Kinunirs are called battlecruisers by the general public because Eneri Q. Public wouldn't know a real battlecruiser if it bit him on the bum.

We do this so reflexively that we're not even aware of it anymore. Look at the subsector official in Rumor R. In a LBB:2 setting his claim about the four Kinunir class ships in service (not counting the Gaesh, of course), each with enough troop strength to put down any military operations that threaten the peace of the Imperium. is boastful but "straight". In a post-HG2 setting, the same official is now a buffoon or drunk. What was once information is now a lie due to our metagame efforts to ignore obvious changes and mistakes in the desire that the game be more of a model.

We all do it Hans. We just haven't been aware of it lately. Why don't you explain to everyone here how Regal Splendor was given to the Vegans when all the Kinunirs were built in the Marches and the Vegan Autonomous District is several sectors away. The story works in A:1 because the map of the Imperium wasn't settled when A:1 was written and the location of the Vegans wasn't known and the change occurred when the Imperium ballooned to it's current vast size. So, what's our current best subsequent explanation or excuse? What metagame lie have crafted as a Hobby to excuse this in-game change?


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

My answer would be that the TL of a ship is "the lowest TL that can perform all maintenance required to keep the ship 'afloat'". That's going to depend, in part, on how you define ship's systems, but at a really basic level, you've got the following:

1. Hull (including armor)
2. Jump drive
3. Maneuver drive
4. Computer, electronics, and life-support
5. Weapons

Since weapons are not required to keep a ship afloat in Traveller, they can be ignored for figuring the TL of the ship. The rest, however, are all required, and the highest TL among those defines the nominal TL of the ship. So, even if everything except the Jump drive is at TL 11, but the Jump drive is at TL 13, the ship is a TL13 ship.

This is not unreasonable.

 

[rancke]

I think we already have and have done so on many topics other than the oddities surrounding the Kinunir.

I'm not inclined to assume responsibility for what others have done, nor mix up a discussion about the Kinunirs with discussions about other topics. What say we stick to this particular topic and leave the others for other occassions?

Let me further explain something first. By "metagame lies", I'm referring to the Hobby having to craft a certain type excuse and/or explanation after the fact. When the canonical information involved was written, it was written "straight". It was never supposed to be deliberate misinformation or mistaken data or anything like that. When this "straight" information doesn't "work" for whatever reason, the Hobby explains or excuses that by saying it's a "lie", by saying it really is deliberate misinformation or mistaken data.

That is one of a number of strategies for dealing with revised context. I call it the '"It's not the truth, it's what people think is the truth" explanation'. Actually, it's not just for changed contexts. It's for all sorts of discrepancies. And if it can be done well, it seems that this sort of explanation is easier for many people to "swallow". As far as I'm concerned, however, it's simply one of a number of ways to do it, not much better and no worse than a straight retcon.

That's what I'm referring to when I write about crafting metagame lies to excuse in-game mistakes or changes. We're moving what was originally intended as straight information or descriptions into the category of in-game misinformation to explain or excuse mistakes or changes.

What do you mean "we", Paleface?

Seriously, I don't agree that "we" are doing any such thing consistently. Some of us propose that sort of explanations in some cases. And why not? Sometimes they work. Sadly, sometimes they don't. The many problems with the Kinunir tend to be cases where it doesn't work. However, the TL discrepancy isn't one of them, so I don't think there's much point in bringing it up in connection with a discussion about the TL problem.

Case in point: The Kinunirs as "battlecruisers". A:1 refers to the vessels as battlecruisers many times. Here's one of several passages; Originally conceived as vanguard cruisers, the Imperial succession of 1071 (and the associated policy changes) resulted in their conversion to colonial cruisers (euphemistically called battle cruisers).

Now, the vessels were battlecruisers, colonial cruisers, or vanguard cruisers in a LBB:2 setting. After HG2 however calling them any type cruisers is a sick joke. That means the Hobby now must swing into action and craft explanations and excuses as to why the A:1 verbiage still "works".

Surely that's one of the more piffling of the discrepancies. If it is a discrepancy. Aren't you always pointing out that terms like 'cruiser' denote function rather than size?

I, for example, say that the battlecruiser label was deliberate misinformation on the IN's part to obscure the black globe testing program. Others say the label is the result of misunderstandings by the general public. Whatever the explanation or excuse is, the mechanism is still the same: What was originally conceived of as straight information is now a "lie".

And if the explanation works, I say go for it. But if it doesn't, I advocate just cutting through the guano and say that the "lie" was never told in the first place. In this case it would be to excise any reference to the Kinunirs ever having been designated as cruisers [NB! I'm not saying I think this is necessary in this case; I'm saying that if it was a problem, this would be a perfectly adequate solution].

We decided to craft a meta-game lie in order to explain or excuse an in-game change.

Again with the "we". Marc Miller and his minions decide. "We" merely offer suggestions. And most of the time "we" don't agree on what suggestions to offer.

If we viewed Traveller more as game, we would have said The rules have changed and we needn't explain the Kinunir's designation as it was made in the context of the previous rules.

It wasn't made in the context of the previous rules. It was made in the context of the previous background -- one that has now been changed, by implication. The change is implied by changed rules, but if the changed rules hadn't implied changes to the background, the rules changes wouldn't have created problems.

However, because we view Traveller more as a model - and incorrectly IMHO - we believe we must reconcile the differing descriptions that are result of changes and mistakes within and between rules versions.

I don't believe any such thing. I believe "we" ought to reconcile discrepancies in the background that otherwise lead to breaking the willing suspension of disbelief and a lessening of the roleplaying experience. "How come I can't get a jump-4 ship built on Regina when the Kinunirs are jump-4? That doesn't make sense!" "Agreed, but the game rules says you can't build jump-4 ships on worlds with a tech level lower than 13." "Expletive the game rules! Regina built the Kinunirs, right? So either come up with a good explanation or let them build us a jump-4 ship!"

That leads us to say The Kinunirs are called battlecruisers because the IN is hiding their true nature or The Kinunirs are called battlecruisers by the general public because Eneri Q. Public wouldn't know a real battlecruiser if it bit him on the bum.

Or the Kinunirs aren't called battlecruisers and never were. What a bizarre idea!.

We do this so reflexively that we're not even aware of it anymore. Look at the subsector official in Rumor R. In a LBB:2 setting his claim about the four Kinunir class ships in service (not counting the Gaesh, of course), each with enough troop strength to put down any military operations that threaten the peace of the Imperium. is boastful but "straight". In a post-HG2 setting, the same official is now a buffoon or drunk.

He's a drunk. He's shown up twice more on other rumor tables published on JTAS Online. What's wrong with that explanation?

What was once information is now a lie due to our metagame efforts to ignore obvious changes and mistakes in the desire that the game be more of a model.

No, it's a changed background fact because the background has changed. You're still mixing up game and setting. The game is a game; the setting IS a model. And, yes, I certainly do want the setting to be more of a model, because I believe that it helps with the game.

We all do it Hans. We just haven't been aware of it lately. Why don't you explain to everyone here how Regal Splendor was given to the Vegans when all the Kinunirs were built in the Marches and the Vegan Autonomous District is several sectors away. The story works in A:1 because the map of the Imperium wasn't settled when A:1 was written and the location of the Vegans wasn't known and the change occurred when the Imperium ballooned to it's current vast size. So, what's our current best subsequent explanation or excuse? What metagame lie have crafted as a Hobby to excuse this in-game change?

My explanation? There's a one-world Imperial client state in Foreven named Vega. Or possibly in Gvurrdon or the rim/spinwards corner of Tuglikki. There! That's an explanation that changed (or amended) the setting (=model) but didn't affect the game one iota.

I'm much more dubious about how to explain why anyone thought it would please the Darrians to get one piffling little escort donated. At the moment I'm most inclined to simply retcon that event out of history. And, no, I don't think the Imperium would include a sample Black Globe with the gift (Not unless they got the Star Trigger in return ).



Hans

 

[far-trader]

...I'm much more dubious about how to explain why anyone thought it would please the Darrians to get one piffling little escort donated. At the moment I'm most inclined to simply retcon that event out of history. And, no, I don't think the Imperium would include a sample Black Globe with the gift (Not unless they got the Star Trigger in return ).

Maybe they did. And the instructions read...

...then drop one active black globe into the sun. :smirk:

 

[rancke]

Applied to the Traveller universe, it will mean that some worlds will, if undergoing a self-driven development plan, skip over entire technologies in the process of self-upgrading.)[/I]

If you'll allow me to digress from the thread topic for a moment, I wish to point out (or rather, submit) that while you are 100% correct, the operative word of that sentence is 'if'. I believe that for every TL X world in Charted Space that were TL X-2 yesterday and plans to be TL X+2 tomorrow, there are a dozen TL X worlds that have been TL X for a long time and have no prospect/intention of becoming anything more than TL X in the forseeable future.

Just an opinion.


Hans

 

[aramis]

off-topic posts moved to new thread in IMTU...

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=330242&posted=1#post330242

 

[Whipsnade]

off-topic posts moved to new thread in IMTU...

Aramis,

Sorry about my threadcrapping...


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Aramis,

Sorry about my threadcrapping...

I don't think you've been threadcrapping, Bill, and I don't believe Wil thinks so either. Your posts have been perfectly on topic. Wrongheaded and mistaken, of course, but nevertheless on topic.


Hans

 

[robject]

Back to Jeff's post:

[...]the TL of a ship is "the lowest TL that can perform all maintenance required to keep the ship 'afloat'". That's going to depend, in part, on how you define ship's systems, but at a really basic level, you've got the following:

1. Hull (including armor)
2. Jump drive
3. Maneuver drive
4. Computer, electronics, and life-support
5. Weapons

Since weapons are not required to keep a ship afloat in Traveller, they can be ignored for figuring the TL of the ship. The rest, however, are all required, and the highest TL among those defines the nominal TL of the ship. So, even if everything except the Jump drive is at TL 11, but the Jump drive is at TL 13, the ship is a TL13 ship.

That's one possible way that Regina could build a ship considered TL 15, assuming at least one component is a TL 15 import. The computer, for example.

 

[robject]

Shipyard Capacities

"Big Ship" example -- Gashidda. Berths no. 1, 2, and 3 are each capable of building a 60kt cruiser (and maybe better). Gashidda is probably a major shipyard, probably capable of building and maintaining dreadnoughts. Similarly the other major yards noted in Supplement 5.

"Small Ship" example -- General on Regina. It can build 5,000 ton ships. How many at any one time? I don't know, but it's not unreasonable to assume more than one. Is 5,000 tons enough for General Shipyards on Regina? Compared to Gashidda it's piddly, isn't it? I know this touches on lots of issues -- a naval yard incapable of Big Ship construction? Why bother?

Efate has a tiny General shipyard. 600 ton ships? Puh-leeze. Let's all agree up front that there are beefier yards on Efate than this one.

I'm starting to think of a shipyard rating system for class A starports, based on the general strength of the world (technology, population, industry, richness).

Class 1 and 2 shipyards are small and of little consequence. They're good places for maintenance or occasional and specialty starship construction. Examples include the sole class 1 yard (Paya), and 20 class 2's, including Pixie, Aramis, Risek, Fulacin, Tenalphi.

Class 3 and 4 shipyards are significant, large affairs, involved in commissioned production runs for megacorps and the navy. The 9 class 3 yards may be less wide-ranging than the class 4 yards, but this may represent consolidated or specialized facilities for specific customers -- Rhylanor is the prime example of this. The 13 class 4 yards are the "sprawling" yards of the Marches, and include typical name-dropping worlds such as Mora, Regina, and Glisten.

 

[FreeTrav]

Not exactly what you're looking for, but in connection with this, you might find Extending the UWP: Starports to be of interest.

 

[rancke]

"Small Ship" example -- General on Regina. It can build 5,000 ton ships. How many at any one time? I don't know, but it's not unreasonable to assume more than one. Is 5,000 tons enough for General Shipyards on Regina? Compared to Gashidda it's piddly, isn't it? I know this touches on lots of issues -- a naval yard incapable of Big Ship construction? Why bother?

"GENERAL SHIPYARDS
A subsidiary of General Products, General Yards is a major contractor to the Imperial Navy and other bulk clients. It is based in Regina subsector with lesser facilities scattered across the sector. [...]" -- MGT:The Spinward Marches, p. 52​

(Emphasis mine).


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

I'll edit this post directly with changes.

I'm gathering info on Traveller shipyards that appear in print. I've given the ones I found arbitrary codes, but haven't located most of the yards. If anyone has this information at their fingertips, I'd appreciate the help.

All worlds with Class A starports have at least one shipyard. Many have multiple yards, some large, some small, some specialty, some reserved or navy/corporate-owned.

Capacity. The numbers stated in Adventure 1 Kinunir page 40 is, of course, too low for anything beyond Book 2.


Numbered Versus Named. The numbers are Imperium-wide. There is only one Yard 17, one Yard 11, and so on. Some might also have a name, but this is not a requirement and is certainly not true for all of them. Yard numbers are therefore part of an Imperial registration system, and are therefore related to Imperial interests, but it is not clear at this time what those interests are.

Three numbered yards (11, 16, 22) are important enough to produce Imperial warships, while one numbered yard (17) might only be regionally important in the navy's eyes (note that it was scheduled to produce a significant percentage of the Kinunirrin, more than Clan Severn on Rhylanor, so it's not a trivial yard).

At the same time, a number of named yards are just as important as the numbered yards -- Gashidda, for example.

Marches

AH  		AHG, AG             Lanth, TL11 ?
BY  		Bilstein Yards 	    Glisten, TL15
CS  		Clan Severn 	    Rhylanor, TL15
GY  		General Shipyards   Regina, TL12 (to 5000t)
GYe 		General Shipyards   Efate, TL13 (to 600t)
GYp 		General Shipyards   Pixie (to 600t)
GS  		GSB, AG             Tenalphi, TL14, et al
LS  		Ling Standard       Rhylanor, TL15 (Mora?)
MA  		Mars                Jewell, TL12 ?
NA  		Naasirka 	    Aramis (annual mtc primarily)
PB  		Piorabanti          Risek, TL10 ?
SB  		Sabaald             Adabicci, TL11 ?
17  		Yard 17             Efate?  Rhylanor?
ZG  		Zagado              ?

Elsewhere

AE  		Arshani, Etran      not the marches
CO  		Commonal            not the marches
DV  		Delvani             Solomani Rim
GA  		Gashidda Nos. 1-3   Gashidda
HL  		Highlans            not the marches
TK  		Tukera              not the marches
VL  	  	Vlandian Nos. 1-2   Vland
11  		Yard 11 No. 1       not in the marches??
16  		Yard 16 Nos. 1-4    not the marches (Markatch?)
22  		Yard 22 No. 1       not the marches

Diversified Dynamics Design and Shipyard (DDD&S): From High Passage 1 pg5, High Passage 2 page9
Established 1058 Located at Galiano/Jayne Old Expanses sector with production divisions at Serpila/Quinoid and L'steich/Sarid, producing small craft and large naval vessels.

And DDD&S's rival: Stone Dockyards located at Adrian/Nicosia, Also from High Passage 2, pg9

Yard 6 and Yard 7 from HP1g5 Produced Tral Wolf light cruisers

Magellan Orbital Yards (Stellar Reaches Fanzine 4 Pg19-20)
located Cooke/Hebrin 2030 A868837-9 procuces smallcraft and small ships

Come on guys, lets quit arguing about TL and construction and start naming/locating shipyards!