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Canonical Shipyards

A good observation, but it [a high TL Imperial Navy small starship built at a low TL Imperial Navy? port] might give us an unintentional hook into a solution. See below.

I could see the Navy or any substantitive group assembling a special
TL15 "team" to build ships in a central location; even in orbital facilities.
Of course cost may preclude this being done on a whim.

I guess the question is: "Are TL15 ships TL15 from bow to stern ? Or
do they just feature TL15 components in key places?"

I can see a TL15 shipyard being more sophisticated by having experience
with all the techniques needed to go from plans to launch on a given
design.

I'm wondering what it might take to go from TL13 or 14 to 15 in a given
shipyard. How long a process is it to upgrade ?

>
 
A good observation, but it [a high TL Imperial Navy small starship built at a low TL Imperial Navy? port] might give us an unintentional hook into a solution. See below.
First of all I suggest taking a step back and deciding just what you want the Kinunir to be. Is it an IN ship at all?

Originally, the Kinunirs were sizable, potent ships, almost one quarter of the maximum size a ship could be. Why, three or four of them could probably take on a battleship! The production run was a full two dozen ships, carefully parcelled out to those few shipyards that could actually handle building a 1200T ship (which some shipyards we knew of weren't capable of). In fact, it was powerful enough to get 24 of the 5000 Black Globe generators the Imperium had gotten its hands on. And one of them stood up to a full two hours of being shot at by massed enemy fire!

Powerful indeed. A credit to the Imperial Navy. No wonder even a signle one makes an impressive gift to client states and allies, even multi-star client states and allies.

Post-HG, OTOH, it's a tiny production run of a piddling 1200T escort. These are the kind of ships any decent navy will buy by the gross, yet the run is only enough to provide squadrons for 1% of existing regular IN fleets. For some strange reason they're actually built consecutively at six different shipyards when any high-population world would have the capacity to build all of them simultaneously.

Just who authorized and paid for those escorts and why? I have my own suggestions, but I'd be interested to hear yours.

That is not an odd thought at all, Bill. Parts can be imported. Imagine all those pre-fab Book 2 jump drive modules sitting on a tarmac, crated, waiting to be shipped...

Probably: Hulls are not imported. Shipyards build components at the world's TL. Components other than the hull, possibly including armor, can be imported.

Thus, the Kinunir is a TL 12 hull with imported components added (e.g. jump drive, sensors, weapons, perhaps even armor).
And why is this preferrable to the Kinunir being a TL13 hull with locally produced TL13 components, thereby reducing the oddity of the design by roughly 99%?



Hans
 
Starship TLs

The good questions just keep on coming!

I guess the question is: "Are TL15 ships TL15 from bow to stern ? Or
do they just feature TL15 components in key places?"

This is a great question. The answer, by the way, is "no, TL15 ships are not TL15 from bow to stern".

The next logical question is "what defines a ship as TL <whatever>?", to which I am forced to reply, "the hull". From a design point of view, there's little about a hull to indicate a tech level, except perhaps integral armor; however, that's the most likely answer.

This is probably a rules-specific answer, by the way.

More good questions:

First of all I suggest taking a step back and deciding just what you want the Kinunir to be. Is it an IN ship at all?

You figure that its size forces some rethinking of purpose, and I'd say you're right.

You also imply another question: why weren't they all produced at one shipyard? I don't know, but I'm sure we could come up with any convenient reason. (For example, this was an initial trial batch which was squeezed into the cracks of production schedules).

And why is this [i.e. the Kinunir being a TL 12 hull with imported components added] preferrable to the Kinunir being a TL13 hull with locally produced TL13 components, thereby reducing the oddity of the design by roughly 99%?

Now we've firmly crossed into rules-specifics. With the rules I use, most small starships are built in this manner. The oddity would be an all-TL15 ship, or all-TL9 ship.


Shipyards and TLs

So the conclusion is that, indeed, shipyards have little desire to build stuff below their TL without good reason, and can't make stuff above their TL as well as higher-TL worlds. What they can't produce locally, they can import. And finally, shipyards, due to their nature of being shipyards, build hulls locally, at their TL; when a ship is built at a shipyard, the keel is laid down locally at the mainworld's TL. (That has interesting results with, for example, TL 8 class A starports).

Thus the Imperial Navy would prefer to build its best ships at its best shipyards. But smaller support ships not intended for the front lines perhaps have more leeway.
 
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why weren't they all produced at one shipyard? I don't know, but I'm sure we could come up with any convenient reason. (For example, this was an initial trial batch which was squeezed into the cracks of production schedules).

I'm guessing, but the likely reason was to create the situation where General was producing substandard vessels in order to put the backstory in place for the actions on the Gaesh, the recon of the unfinished hull, and ultimately the Kinunir. But that is probably not the answer you wanted...

One (or another) oddity in the Kinunir story line is that the first example was not built by the IN while later sources (IIRC) state that the norm is for Navy yards to produce the prototype then other shipyards can be contracted for additional vessels. Again, the BGG on the Kinunir would argue for this course to be followed.

Perhaps, the warning signs of the impending 4FW may have induced IN planners to rush the process, building multiple hulls at multiple sites to get more fielded before war broke out?
 
Presumably this is another simplified game rule.


Hans,

On which you've constructed an entire universe to the point of absurdity.

There is a point at which the rules breakdown and common sense must take over. There is a point at which we must say This is broken, stop trying to make it work, and simply bow to the fact that Traveller's many creators were writing gaming supplements and not internally consistent descriptions of what is essentially a shared setting.

I love making canon work as much as the next guy, but when I need to bend canon, logic, and common sense into pretzel shaped objects even I know when to quit.

Regina built seven Kinunirs and any of the components that her yards required, but which she couldn't make, were imported.

It's neat, it's simple, it doesn't give the players an additional edge because we're talking about governmental construction, and - best of all - it follows real world practices.


Regards,
Bill
 
Starship TLs

This is a great question. The answer, by the way, is "no, TL15 ships are not TL15 from bow to stern".

That's what I got from GURPS Traveller, but I can't remember the
last time I put together a ship in CT/High Guard or any other gaming
system (for Traveller).

In GT many of the systems are < ShipTL (fuel tanks don't change much over the centuries) but other items get smaller/lighter and drop costs.
Sure there's always a better way to do something or make something
but some items remain pretty much the same.

My own interpretation was that TL involves the latest way to do something, given the equipment and supplies + technique.

>
 
I guess the question is: "Are TL15 ships TL15 from bow to stern ? Or
do they just feature TL15 components in key places?"
At least in MT, no. One section may be higher than the design TL.
The research and development craft design is an exception; it may have components in a single section that are one tech
level beyond its current tech level limit. Such a craft is typically one-of-a-kind, and it may not benefit from a quantity discount.

MT RM 57​
 
rancke said:
Presumably this is another simplified game rule.

On which you've constructed an entire universe to the point of absurdity.
What are you babbling about, Bill? What universe have I constructed based on a rule referred to by Wil with which I'm unfamiliar? And when have I ever NOT advocated interpreting game rules as simplifications of "reality" instead of insisting that they be interpreted as absolute truths?

There is a point at which the rules breakdown and common sense must take over. There is a point at which we must say This is broken, stop trying to make it work, and simply bow to the fact that Traveller's many creators were writing gaming supplements and not internally consistent descriptions of what is essentially a shared setting.
And what point are you talking about here? You made a claim about what the canon rules said that, I believe, was wrong, being a conflation of two different rules. Which rule are you talking about that breaks down and how common is the sense you feel must take over? You're not making any sense here (Not to me, anyway).

I love making canon work as much as the next guy, but when I need to bend canon, logic, and common sense into pretzel shaped objects even I know when to quit.
That statement might have meant something to me if either you, me, or someone else in the course of this discussion had bent canon, logic, and common sense into pretzel shaped objects. As it is, it mystifies me.

Regina built seven Kinunirs and any of the components that her yards required, but which she couldn't make, were imported.
Very true. That works especially well if all the components (except the Black Globe, of course) could be made on Regina. No imports needed in that case.


Hans
 
This is a great question. The answer, by the way, is "no, TL15 ships are not TL15 from bow to stern".
As I said in another post, I do think game rules should be interpreted as simplifications of "reality". But that doesn't mean said interpretation should gratuiously ignore everything the rule implies.

There's a game rule that says "The TL of a ship is the TL of all its components, from the hull to the computer software" (I'm paraphrasing here). Common sense says that it is possible to mix components of different tech levels. But unless there's a compelling reason to think otherwise, the game rule is presumably a simplification of reality, not a total transmogrification of it. If the rule says that all ships have uniform tech levels, it's a little much to claim that few or no ships have uniform tech levels. Surely the existence of the rule implies that most of the time tech levels are uniform, and only in special cases are they not.

The next logical question is "what defines a ship as TL <whatever>?", to which I am forced to reply, "the hull".
Or perhaps the tech level of the shipyard that builds it?

From a design point of view, there's little about a hull to indicate a tech level, except perhaps integral armor; however, that's the most likely answer.
Well, the material that the hull is composed of might provide a slight hint of its tech level.

This is probably a rules-specific answer, by the way.
I don't see how it can be. If an answer adheres to the rules, it may be rules-specific. But if it's based on ignoring some of the rules on a "common sense" basis, you can't very well clain that it's rules-specific.

You figure that its size forces some rethinking of purpose, and I'd say you're right.
My suggestion is that it was sector-level project, not an Imperium-level project. As such, the ships may have been partly funded by several duchy navies. (That would explain why the marines on the Luuru don't all have BD training; they're Duchy of Regina marines, not Imperial marines :D).

What about the Black Globes? Well, the Kinunirs were also secretly meant to be test beds for these new Black Globes. It was a "hide in plain sight" scheme where the Black Globe mountings were "sold" as mountings some other kind of experimental device (a much more mundane and boring device). Only a few of the Kinunirs were ever fitted with a Black Globe.

You also imply another question: why weren't they all produced at one shipyard? I don't know, but I'm sure we could come up with any convenient reason. (For example, this was an initial trial batch which was squeezed into the cracks of production schedules).
Oh, I'm sure some explanation can be found. My point was, however, that whatever story is selected, it will affect the background history, and that the existing background story almost certainly won't work.

Now we've firmly crossed into rules-specifics. With the rules I use, most small starships are built in this manner. The oddity would be an all-TL15 ship, or all-TL9 ship.
You'll have to explain that a bit more. These rules you speak of, are they your personal house rules or do they have anything to do with canon?

And why in the universe would most ships be built with a melange of components running the gamut of tech levels?

So the conclusion is that, indeed, shipyards have little desire to build stuff below their TL without good reason...
That's not a conclusion, it's a thesis.

...and can't make stuff above their TL as well as higher-TL worlds...
And that's a truism.

...What they can't produce locally, they can import.
They can indeed. However, that adds transportation costs to the cost of the components, and since higher-tech shipyards are able to build lower-tech hulls cheaper (there's a motive for building lower-tech hulls (and components too, for that matter)), such ships would be at a competitive disadvantage.

And finally, shipyards, due to their nature of being shipyards, build hulls locally, at their TL;
Or lower.

...when a ship is built at a shipyard, the keel is laid down locally at the mainworld's TL. (That has interesting results with, for example, TL 8 class A starports).
When a ship is built at a shipyard, it is built with components manufactured locally unless special circumstances makes it reasonable to do otherwise. That's MY supposition.

Thus the Imperial Navy would prefer to build its best ships at its best shipyards. But smaller support ships not intended for the front lines perhaps have more leeway.
The Imperial Navy will want to buy its ships from wherever they get the most clang for their cred (that's futurespeak for 'bang for their buck' ;)). What that would be depends on a lot of factors.


Hans
 
Common sense says that it is possible to mix components of different tech levels. [...]

[...] whatever story is selected, it will affect the background history, and that the existing background story almost certainly won't work.

Well we actually did step into rules territory, and as a result I'm not being fair, so let's step back.

At the moment, we're talking about something addressed by at least MT and T5 rules, and we might even be off topic. It depends on your rules set, and how specific it is. Book 2 is vague. HG is mainly TL-puritan. MT is 'cosmopolitan', as is T5, which is my current reference point. In T5, a ship usually represents more than one TL.

And you're quite right about the impedance mismatch between canon and rules; the idea here is to tread lightly on canon.

Marc's initial reactions (call it kneejerk) are that starports build ships AT their TL, and not above (which is hard), or below (which is stupid). They can import anything except the hull. How this works out in praxis is yet to be discovered, of course.


Bill said:
Regina built seven Kinunirs and any of the components that her yards required, but which she couldn't make, were imported.

Hans said:
Very true. That works especially well if all the components (except the Black Globe, of course) could be made on Regina. No imports needed in that case.

Good. At least one import, then. Maybe we can start a new thread about Regina's ability to build component XYZ. Unless we've run out of gas regarding other aspects of shipyards.
 
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You know all this discussion about what TL the Kinunir class is is very interesting. You do remember that this vessel is the construction example in the 2nd Edition version of High Guard? It was certainly TL15 there.

I personally like the idea of General importing the requisite TL15 componants from elsewhere (does General have a TL15 yard in the Spinward Marches?) and then assembling the componants so rapidly that quality control fell over resulting in their ill fated vessels, but they did get the class named after a vessel they built.

Checking High Guard 2nd ed, the hull itself is TL14 or higher and the power plant, particle accelerators and black globe appear to be the only TL15 componants. It does state that the ships pinnace is also TL15 but small craft can be easily obtained elsewhere.
 
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You know all this discussion about what TL the Kinunir class is is very interesting. You do remember that this vessel is the construction example in the 2nd Edition version of High Guard? It was certainly TL15 there.

Of course, though iirc it doesn't work even then but I could be misremembering. Something about it is nagging at the back of my brain.

EDIT: A quick and dirty check comes out MCr8.701 over budget, 11.5tons over allowance, and short 2 crew. Oh, and no agility. Not enough energy for the listed Agility 1. And of course that's without the HG1 Drop Capsules. A nice feature, but dropped in the HG2 version for some reason.

And of course it wasn't built that way in Adventure 1 where it first appeared. Even the tonnage changed.

And it (the HG2 TL15 version) really makes a mess of the colour text and the deckplans :) And it still makes little sense as a "Battle Cruiser" (except in name) in the HG universe ;)

I personally like the idea of General importing the requisite TL15 componants from elsewhere...

Oh sure, if that were allowed. And maybe it is in the OTU. It's not in HG but iirc it is in TCS...

...does General have a TL15 yard in the Spinward Marches?

Not according to Adventure 1 iirc. Just the TL 10 yard on Regina capable of 5000tons of build, and the 600ton yards on Pixie and Efate both at TL 13.
 
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What are you babbling about, Bill?


Hans,

It was just a general observation that can - and should - be applied to most of us. Let me explain...

I've been slowly crafting a Traveller "sandbox" in the manner suggested here and I've quickly learned to re-appreciate the marked emphasis in Traveller older rules and descriptions towards game as opposed to model.

All simulations lean towards either game or model. Even games emphasize one over the other. Naval games can be as detailed as Harpoon or as streamlined the card-based Cold War Naval Battles. Both games simulate the same events, but only one is enough of a model that lessons can be inferred from it. On the game vs. model scale, Traveller is far closer to Cold War Naval Battles than Harpoon, but I've developed the habit of treating it as if it were Harpoon.

Because I currently play with Traveller far more than play Traveller, I drifted towards a "Traveller as a model" mindset and further from the "Traveller is a game" mindset.

Trying to explain how seven Kinunirs can be built on Regina is an example of the Traveller as a model mindset at work. There's no explanation though, at least none that doesn't add to or ignore or otherwise twist the game's descriptions. More importantly, there's no need for an explanation. The Kinunirs were built where canon says they were built because canon is describing something that is more game than model.

Now, if someone needs an explanation for their TU, that's fine. They can craft one that fits their needs. It's no concern of ours, however, what that explanation is.


Regards,
Bill
 
One (or another) oddity in the Kinunir story line...


Major B,

That speaks to the point I'm trying and failing to get across here.

The Kinunir story is odd when viewed through the lens of late canon. That same story, however, when examined in the context in which A:1 was written makes perfect sense. This is because Traveller is a game and not a model.

Because Traveller is a game, instead of a model, there are changes and mistakes within versions and between versions. We cannot "explain" OTU technological levels strictly within LBB:3's description of the same, we have to "excuse" them instead. We cannot "explain" MT's Alien Incursions strictly within MT's own descriptions of the Imperium, IN, Aslan, and Vargr, again we must "excuse" them. Ditto TNE's lasers when contrasted with the lasers in every other version. Ditto HEPlaR, jump torps, and dozens upon dozens of other things.

In the case of the Kinunirs and IMTU, I've crafted excuses to deal with their poor design, their silly designation as "battlecruisers", their presence at a major naval battle, one of their number being given to the Vegans despite none being built on the Rim, and several other oddities. I've did so to to put more "model" into the "game" where I felt more "model" was needed, but my "excuses" will not fit another person's game.

Everyone tweaks the rules and descriptions to meet their gaming needs, but an important line can be easily crossed while doing that. When we start to craft metagame lies to excuse in-game mistakes or changes, we start to cross that line. That's when we forget that Traveller is a game and start treating Traveller as if it were a model.


Regards,
Bill
 
It was just a general observation that can - and should - be applied to most of us.
You may want to chose your words more carefully, then, because it certainly came across to me as if you were haranguing me over some egregious personal misdeed of mine.


All simulations lean towards either game or model. Even games emphasize one over the other. Naval games can be as detailed as Harpoon or as streamlined the card-based Cold War Naval Battles. Both games simulate the same events, but only one is enough of a model that lessons can be inferred from it. On the game vs. model scale, Traveller is far closer to Cold War Naval Battles than Harpoon, but I've developed the habit of treating it as if it were Harpoon.
There's one crucial difference between Traveller and those other games. Traveller is a roleplaying game; they're not. In other kinds of games, the rules are the rules, whether they are realistic or not; in a a roleplaying game, you have a referee to amend or refine the rules for a specific application, if doing so will enhance the gaming experience and lend verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing game universe.

I'm fully aware of the difference between gaming and modeling. Gaming is when you're having fun roleplaying with your friends, modeling is what you do when you're developing the background. Which of the two have we be doing here? Why, dog my cats, we've been developing the background, not playing a game!

Because I currently play with Traveller far more than play Traveller, I drifted towards a "Traveller as a model" mindset and further from the "Traveller is a game" mindset.
And which mindset is most appropriate for developing the game background?

Trying to explain how seven Kinunirs can be built on Regina is an example of the Traveller as a model mindset at work.
It is indeed, and that's what is needed here!

There's no explanation though, at least none that doesn't add to or ignore or otherwise twist the game's descriptions. More importantly, there's no need for an explanation.
Yes, there is. The fact that Regina has been building jump-4 starships shows that Regina is capable of building jump-4 starships. Which is something that affects the background (and by extension, may affect a game). That's why Ancker Shipyard is able to offer a jump-4 version of its Golden Gryphon line. Facts have ramifications. Just because we sometimes ignore those ramifications (and the facts too) in order to make a game easier to play doesn't mean that we should ignore them when world-building. And, of course, some times it turns out that we don't actually have to ignore those facts in order to have a good game; sometimes having the facts actually fit each other enhances an otherwise flat and uninspiring game background.

The Kinunirs were built where canon says they were built because canon is describing something that is more game than model.
I don't think anyone has advanced the suggestion that the discrepancy should be resolved by retconning the place those ships were built to be somewhere other than Regina. I certainly would never advocate such a solution (even though it would work perfectly well ;)). It's not that those Kinunirs were built on Regina we're debating. It's the ramifications to the background that this canonical fact implies that we're discussing.

Now, if someone needs an explanation for their TU, that's fine. They can craft one that fits their needs. It's no concern of ours, however, what that explanation is.
The whole point of working together on a shared universe is that it IS the concern of anyone who takes an interest. If you're not interested, you're free to ignore the debate. But don't come here and tell us that it's no concern of OURS; we'll decide that for ourselves, thank you very much!


Hans
 
Just curious where you figure that from? It's not armoured and that's the only TL component for Hulls with TL differences that I recall.

Whilst not relevant to the Kinunir...

Hull Armor is a direct TL effect
maximum hull size is a function of computer; maximum computer is a TL function. The Requisite Model 4 (to cover the required jump) supports a 10KTd hull.
 
The Kinunir story is odd when viewed through the lens of late canon. That same story, however, when examined in the context in which A:1 was written makes perfect sense. This is because Traveller is a game and not a model.
No, it's because the context has changed. That's because TPTB changed the context.

Because Traveller is a game, instead of a model, there are changes and mistakes within versions and between versions. We cannot "explain" OTU technological levels strictly within LBB:3's description of the same, we have to "excuse" them instead. We cannot "explain" MT's Alien Incursions strictly within MT's own descriptions of the Imperium, IN, Aslan, and Vargr, again we must "excuse" them. Ditto TNE's lasers when contrasted with the lasers in every other version. Ditto HEPlaR, jump torps, and dozens upon dozens of other things.
We only have to excuse them when changing them to make more sense would ruin something else that we don't want ruined. I don't see anything like that at stake in this particular instance.

When we start to craft metagame lies to excuse in-game mistakes or changes, we start to cross that line.
And if we ever get to that point, you're welcome to tell us all about it.

That's when we forget that Traveller is a game and start treating Traveller as if it were a model.
Speak for yourself, Bill. In my opinion Traveller is BOTH a game and a model, and I do try hard not get the two mixed up.


Hans
 
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