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Carbines vs. Rifles

Injury statistics would disagree. Shootings have a much higher mortality rate than stabbings, and that's generally for pistol caliber weapons.

The high end standard for stab resistance, in vests, is 43J (and has some, er, interesting assumptions). A .22 short has as muzzle energy of 95J. A sword swing can have significantly more energy than a stab, but 328J in one strike is pretty much superhuman.
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
Best of both worlds are toys like the PP-90M1
or better yet a slightly saner similar design made to a higher quality. [/QB]
That SMG has its root firmly planted in the PP-19 Bison, who's feed system was copied from the Calico. But the helical magazine has never really caught on. You get a large capacity at the expense of complexity and slowness of loading.

The Calico itself fell victim to the assault weapons ban, but since the ban's expiration, no one had tried to revive it.
 
That's a number which is hard to find (the 43J figure involved some bogus math itself -- the people doing the studies were surprised at how high the numbers they got were, concluded it was because the knife they were using had a large hand guard, and 'corrected' the numbers down because many knives don't have that). One source I found used a sample (broadsword) energy of 140J, which seems to be within the credible range for human arm mechanics.
 
The other factor that needs to be considered is that KE isn't a good or even predictable measure of tissue damage until you get to relatively high velocities so it's a matter of apples to oranges. The mechanisms of wounding from something like a knife or arrow are quite different than from small arms. Damage from tissue displacement, cavitation, hydrostatic shock - what have you - is generally not considered mych of a factor until the projectile exceeds 600m/s.

KE as a measure of killing power (or Traveller Damage) should probably be pretty much left to high velocity slug throwers. A good measure of the killing power of HTH weapons is to consider that most casualties of these weapons who die, do so after the fact, and from secondary causes.

As an aside, both the German and French armies, in the late 19th century, determined that it required about 75J of energy from a small arm to 'produce a casualty' - although not one that was necessarily rendered hors de combat.

Whatever the case, It seems likely that most RPGs overestimate the killing power of HTH weapons - probably based on perceptions taken from movies and TV, and from high historical casualty rates that were as much a result of poor medical practice, infection and the delivery of coups de graces as they were the particular lethality of the weapons.

If we look at the figures I cited in the article referenced, you about 6x more likely to survive a knive wound as one delived by handgun. The study of survival rates involving altercations of tribal warriors in SA is particularly illustrative, as the transition from traditional weapons (spear and knife) to firearms has meant a huge upswing in deaths.

The upshot of all this is that if you realistically reflected the comparative killing power of HTH weapons vs. guns, PCs wouldn't bother with HTH weapons unless they had no other choice. The suggestion that a cutlass is in any way equivalent to the lethality of a main battle rifle, for example, is utterly ridiculous.

Don't you love how these threads wander?
 
Only a fool brings a knife to a gunfight.


Nice references, Corejob. And rifles (even wimpy rifles like the 5.56 or 7.62 AK) do vastly more damage than any handgun, even a 44 Magnum.

I can live with 140 J for a swordblow with a lot of body movement. 100 J is about right for a karate "hammer blow", 75 J for a punch. Not that it means much. It certainly isn't comparable with ballistics.

Much of the incised trauma is from small knives, but it is difficulkt to get a good knife blow on someone who is juking and dodging. I recall one accound of a soldier who was hit in the back by a Japanese Katana, but he was dodging so it just cut a shallow groove. General Nathan Bedford Forrest suffered a similar wound dodging a Yankee saber. Later he said that if the Yankee had used his Colt .44 instead of his saber, Forrest would have died.
 
-"The suggestion that a cutlass is in any way equivalent to the lethality of a main battle rifle, for example, is utterly ridiculous."
Perhaps when delt with in absolutes. But in actual combat there are many factors to consider; advantages to each weapon type, user's skill, local condtions ect.
If someone puts a gun to my head I'd hit them, there's no way they can pull the trigger fast enough.
 
Mythbusters experiment - I want them to try this.

Hang a pig carcass from a hook and shoot with guns of different types to try and knock it off (I'm lead to believe they have already tried this).

Next, swing a machete, cutlass, broadsword, whatever at the carcass and see if you can knock it off.

I've seen a side of pork hit with a two handed sword, it's not a pretty sight.
 
Very True. Action is always faster than reaction, a point that Bill Jordan proved may times.

The problem is that if you hit someone, the likelyhood that you will incapacitate them is very low. If they hit you with a bullet, the likelyhood of incapacitation is very high. If that same person, rather than just putting a gun to your head shoots you there, you will almost certainly be dead or at the very least be incapacitated. And you certainly be won't able to react fast enough to do anything about it once the round has left the gun.

There is a reason that edge weapons aren't used on the battlefield except in very special rare occations (like dispatching sentries) and even those are mostly gone, given over to to things like suppressed weapons.

The edged weapon as a tool of war is obsolete, in the same way the horse is. The most useful blade a soldier can carry is a pocket knife, handy as a cutting tool that doesn't take up much space.
 
Certainly, given the right weapon, and a properly positioned body. But it's not as easy as some people think. During the time period when the sword was used as a weapon of execution, it was not uncommon for several strokes to be required beore the victim was dispatched.

The French physician Joseph-Ignace Guillotin was an advocate of the guillotine (which he did not invent, BTW) as a more humane form of execution because beheadings with the sword and axe were frequently rather messy and drawn out affairs.
 
Or read Thordeman's Arms and Armor from the Battle of Wisby. Lots of bones severed by sword/axe blows. Even more bones scratched or nicked by a blow that didn't quite get it right.
If you get a square hit on a stationary target (like a pig's carcass) you can do awesome damage with a cleaving blade. But against a dodging opponent you will more likely hit with less force and effect than you would like. McBane talks about surving dozens of cuts, which may be an exaggeration but show how warriors thought in the 17th century.

Even a stabbing wound is of uncertain depth, depending on the length of the weapon and how you and your opponent were moving. OTOH a bullet doesn't care who's moving, it will blow a hole right through.
 
digressing....

i'm not real up to date on rifles
concering which is better etc....

but doesnt the bullpup configuration
make a carbine obsolete...the barrels
inside the stock so no long barrel to
fret with...so its long range...and
can use any caliber?
 
That's certainly the theory. There are a few problems with the bullpup, however. They are currently very 'handed', that is, can only be used if you are right or left handed, depending on how they are configured due to the location of the ejection port. The FN2000 has a novel solution to this problem, and caseless ammunition or bottom ejection like the Steyr ACR eliminate this.

Bullpups other problem is one of ergonomics. The magazine ends up in a location that makes magazine changes much more difficult, particularly under stress, and all the controls require long and sometimes complex linkages.

The Bullpup was supposed to be the wave of the future, but the design has only been adopted by a few armies.

Certainkly, Traveller assumes the bullpup in all advanced tech rifle designs.
 
Another ergometric problem is the fixed length of pull (the distance from the shoulder to the trigger). The US Army likes to adjust the LOP to accommodate cold weather clothing and especially body armor. IIRC, the lousy trigger of the F2000 is limiting sales.

But more countries are going with bullpups. There are new bullpups from Israel, Singapore, South Africa, the Ukraine and China. A bullpup is easier to carry, especially in a vehicle. Often not so good to fight with.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So how much kinetic energy is there in a 1.25kg cutlass swing? Or a 1kg sword, or the 2kg broadsword?
Whatever the weight of the weapon, it can only have the energy the arm puts into it.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So how much kinetic energy is there in a 1.25kg cutlass swing? Or a 1kg sword, or the 2kg broadsword?
Whatever the weight of the weapon, it can only have the energy the arm puts into it.
 
Yep, and the mass of the arm, or even the whole body, should be added to the mass of the sword for calculation purposes.

You also gain a little from gravity on a down swing, but that's getting a bit complicated
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