Foreven: Your Thoughts

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Meier,

Please accept my sincere condolences over the passing of your mother.

My father was diagnosed with a primary brain lymphoma only weeks after my discharge from the Navy in 1987. Let's just say that cancer destroyed who he was well before it actually killed him and, because my mother was nurse and was determined to care for him at home, I stayed to help while watching that progress up close and personal for 18 long months.

My comments and those made by others about Hell Creek still hold true however.

Your company made grand announcements on various fora regarding Traveller and Savage World products in January and this very personal tragedy entered your life in June. January to June. That's four months between your announcement and the point at which you life was turned upside-down. That's four months in which Hell Creek produced nothing but posts and promises on various fora.

The gaming industry in general and the RPG industry in specific have been plagued by vaporware since the beginning and - at the moment - Hell Creek is simply another company on a long list of vaporware providers. Jon Blazer, who makes announcements and then actually provides products, was being told that he should either hold off on providing any Foreven materials until Hell Creek produced it's own or work with Hell Creek in producing the same.

I suggested that Jon simply move ahead with his own plans and not worry about whether Hell Creek had anything to release or would ever have anything for release. Jon is already proven provider of Traveller materials, something Hell Creek is not. Jon should move ahead with his own projects and leave it to Hell Creek to follow him, if it is able, and not the other way around.

Damon Runyon once wrote that The race doesn't always go to the swiftest or the fight to the strongest, but that's the way to bet. Among other things, this thread was asking we consumers about how we should bet on future Traveller products. Should we encourage a proven producer like Jon Blazer Enterprises? Or should we bet on a producer of promises and posts like Hell Creek? One company has produced and the other has not.

There's nothing personal at work here, just a pragmatic appraisal of the future based on the events of the past.


Regards,
Bill

 

[ThunderChilde]

Dale, you have my condolences, to you and your wife. I look forward to your products when the time and your heart clear the way to them.

Once again, my deepest sympathies,

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Dale, my condolences.

Everyone else, let's try to be a bit more sympathetic, shall we? Family always comes first. It's hardly the end of the world if the book's late.

 

[robject]

"Wild" Bill Cameron can be sympathetic, but doesn't cut slack, ever.

Almost by definition. Just look at his voting record.

 

[aramis]

Dale: my condolances about the loss of your mother.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

"Wild" Bill Cameron can be sympathetic, but doesn't cut slack, ever.

Almost by definition. Just look at his voting record.

To be fair, I think that's due to (a) only getting "15% of the message" - the standard problem of this type of forum - and (b) the nature of Bill's job doesn't "suffer fools gladly". There are no *small* nuclear accidents, after all.

Look up Bill's reaction when some drongo phoned up to say he was unscrewing the bolts holding a man-sized spring in place... in hindsight the situation is funny, but still disturbing.

My condolences go out to Dale and his family. I think we sometimes forget that a niche market - such as the majority of RPGs these days - also mean niche publishers, where one bad thing can make or break them. Just look at the stuff Hunter went through. I never did find out how his dad faired after Katrina...

If we could get back to discussing the playground that is Foreven, that would be nice. How to keep it a playground, but still rough out some guidelines, even better.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Dale,

I would like to express my condolences. I have not been on this thread much the past week being at GenCon, so I am sorry I did not express such sooner.

To help steer this thread back on topic, I am asking for more input. I decided to start with the rimward trailing quadrant of Foreven as my first project. I'm trying to go through world by world and make the UWP's make sense. Things like worlds with a 7+ population and 0 hydrograph, High Tech/High Pop worlds with D/E starports, things like that I feel that do not make sense. Are there any others in that quadrant that you (anyone) feel does not make sense. Please speak now or foreven hold your peace.

Dale McCoy, Jr.

 

[Klaus]

Hmmm, started something in subsector P meself. Great minds and all....

 

[Sylvre Phire]

Dale,

I would like to express my condolences. I have not been on this thread much the past week being at GenCon, so I am sorry I did not express such sooner.

To help steer this thread back on topic, I am asking for more input. I decided to start with the rimward trailing quadrant of Foreven as my first project. I'm trying to go through world by world and make the UWP's make sense. Things like worlds with a 7+ population and 0 hydrograph, High Tech/High Pop worlds with D/E starports, things like that I feel that do not make sense. Are there any others in that quadrant that you (anyone) feel does not make sense. Please speak now or foreven hold your peace.

Dale McCoy, Jr.

PM sent.

Dale

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Back to Foreven and the Avalar Consulate...

I've always found that pictures help a great deal, so I've stretched my microscopic creative skills to the utmost and have produced the following map:

(You can get this horrible map and it's post-Fifth Frontier War sister in the site's "Imperial Musuem of Art", although anything I produce cannot be said to be "art".)

While remarkable lousy, this map should still be able to get my point across about the Avalar Consulate:

It's too big and too close to the Darrians and Imperials to have had no effect no matter when it was formed.

Pre-Fifth Frontier War, post-Fifth Frontier War, used to be the Weltbund, wracked by civil war, none of the excuses work. It's Zhodani allied, it's relatively huge, and it's too damn close. You cannot handwave the influence it should have away without snapping all sorts of belief suspenders. It's a mistake and we've a chance here to correct that mistake.

Here's some additional facts about the Avalar Consulate:

- You're looking at 33 systems on this map, that's only half the Consulate's size in Foreven alone as the Avalar Consulate extends rimward into the Beyond Sector too.

- At their nearest points, the Avalar Consulate and Zhodani Consulate are seven parsecs apart, but the majority of the systems in the Avalar Consulate are actually closer to the Darrians and Imperium.

What's more, Imperiallianes explicitly describes the Avalar Consulate's role in the sector as: Although many welcome the Imperials, others resist their arrival as an unwelcome intrusion. The most disturbed is the Zhodani Consulate. Having fought for centuries to check Imperial expansionism, the Imperium now threatens to sweep across its rimward frontier. Unfortunately, the Consulate's resources are needed elsewhere, so it must rely on its allies, like the Avalar Consulate, and its intelligence and frontier services, to deal with this crisis.

Note how the Zhodani must rely on their allies, like the Avalar Consulate, to deal with the crisis sparked by Imperial intrusions. That strongly suggests that the Avalar are used in a similar fashion as the Sword Worlds, that is as active allies against the Imperium and it's allies. And yet we've no indication of any Avalar inlfuence on either the Imperium or it's allies whatsoever. The passage also strongly suggests, because it talks about Imperial expansion into Foreven prior to the First Frontier War, that the Avalar has been around for the Zhodani to rely on for some time.

The choice comes down to how many retcons, rewrites, and handwaves you want to inflict on canonical history. If we keep the Avalar, we must rewrite the history of the Marches in order to retcon the Avalar Consulate and apply handwaves to explain it's seeming lack of effect. However, if we throw out the Avalar Consulate we'll only need to make a single change.

What's it going to be? A tedious reexamination of canon in order to retcon, rewrite, and handwave the Avalar into place? Or simple flushing away of what was a bad idea to begin with? Is the Avalar Consulate even worth the effort?

Here's something else to consider. Foreven is supposed to become an OTU playground for third party publishers but at 66 worlds the Avalar Consulate will "use up" nearly a third of the available systems in the sector. Why set aside a third of the subsector for a marginal idea before anyone even begins write there?


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

Here's a little more information, perhaps related to Foreven.

Adventure 7, p18: New Frontier Trading Partners, a Sword Worlds corporation, bought ten Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruisers, for use in operations outside the Marches far to Spinward.

"far"?

If these ships are escorts, then there are trade routes to protect...

This means a corporation registered to a Sword Worlds world has doings in or past Foreven. So, for the sake of plot hooks, I ask you:

How far? Foreven? Far Frontiers? Beyond?
Why buy ten Broadswords *here* then move them 30, 60, 90 parsecs Spinward?
What, can't the fontier build perfectly good Mercenary Cruisers?
Or, perhaps that's the firepower it takes to run the gauntlet to wherever they need to go?
What's the Swordies' stake in this?

 

[Klaus]

I'd just like to clarify what I stated earlier. I am hoping to put out a subsector of Foreven to use as a base for further adventures. This will be subsector P for several reasons. I've no idea when I will get this out. I was not going to announce anything but the good Doc stated his intention to put out product set in a similar area, and I thought I'd better say that was my intention too.

It will be just a single subsector, with fully detailed world descriptions (as I do not believe in the UWP); my ultimate intention is to produce a series of shorter and longer adventures set there, in such a way as I can use OTU terminology (because it is the baseline setting). As technically Foreven has always been a referee's reserve, I will not be beholden to any previous iteration of it. So there will be no Avalar Consulate in my version as I have no interest in such a thing. It also will not go out of my way to fit in with any Foreven product from another author that may precede it (this would be an impossible way to work; multiple authors can make a useful sector - multiple companies just become too complicated). I believe there is room for more than one Foreven, or for refs to be able to mix and match their favourite bits of the 'competing' versions.

I cannot yet submit a time frame for this product, as there is at least 1 (likely more) other products I am involved with to come out before this one and I have an unpredictable day job. BTW, this IS NOT a product annoucement, just a public courtesy to other Foreven authors.

 

[robject]

I'd just like to clarify what I stated earlier. I am hoping to put out a subsector of Foreven to use as a base for further adventures. This will be subsector P for several reasons. I've no idea when I will get this out. [...]

[...]It also will not go out of my way to fit in with any Foreven product from another author that may precede it [...]

Well, as long as Klaus is blabbing, I guess I can, too.

My intention is to produce UWPs for Reidain subsector, with a number of world writeups. I like what little data is currently there, and will expand it out.

Of course, as I'm not a publishing house, it won't be a product...

 

[Whipsnade]

Klaus & Robject,

Good luck with both your projects.

I'd be remiss however if I didn't point out that you both can accomplish what you wish to do while remaining "geographically vague". You both can write up subsector-sized regions that are "somewhere" in Foreven just as Ruritania is somewhere in the Balkans, Graustark is "somewhere" in Eastern Europe, and Kukuanaland is "somewhere" north of the Kalukawe River.

I'd also like to point out that Imperialline's proposed Avalar Consulate will severely limit the vague placement subsector-sized regions you do create no matter how "geogrpahically vague" you choose to be. A few items have been fixed within Foreven already but, thanks to Imperiallines, there isn't much room left in Foreven in which for others to play.

Look at the maps I recently posted, which only cover the trailing half of the sector. Subsectors C and D are inside the Zhodani border. Subsectors G and H are nearly completely free with a few Zho systems coreward. Half of Subsectors K and O is in the Avalar Consulate along with a quarter of Subsector L and the coreward corner of Subsector P.

In the spinward half things get even worse. All of Subsectors A and B, all but four systems of Subsector E, and over two thirds of Subsector F are inside the Zhodani border. Half of Subsector I belongs to the Mnemosyne Principality, all but four systems in the J Subsector belong to the Avalar Consulate, all but five systems in the M Subsector belong to the Mnemosyne, and all but two systems in the N Subsector belong to either the Mnemosyne or Avalar.

Pretty crowded for an alleged GM's Preserve isn't it?

Canonically, AM4 gave us the Zhodani border, there's nothing we can about that. DA5 gave us Alenzar/Chamax and Raschev, a few more Foreven systems are mentioned in Alien Realms, and Ordeal by Eschaar best fit is within the sector too. That's pretty much it before Imperiallines came out.

With only 10 out of 16 subsectors still "open" available, Imperiallines saw fit to use up half of that with 1+ subsectors for the Mnemosyne and essentially 4 subsectors for the Avalar. (Yes, the Keith Brother's work in the Far Frontiers shows the Mnemosyne Principality extending into Foreven, but it was Imperiallines that assigned that polity 28 systems within Foreven. Imperialline's Mnemosyne could be heavily pruned without any loss whatsoever.)

What's more, with the way the borders are drawn, only four of the remaining "open" subsectors even approach subsector size and all have at least one system within either the Zhodani or Avalar consulates. Robject, you're interested in writing up the Reidain subsector, the home of the Chamax? You better be prepared then to also write-up the four systems in it that belong to the Avalar Consulate too.

Imperiallines not only plunked down an ill-sized, ill-though out, Zhodani-allied polity in Foreven, they positioned it in such a way as to cramp the style of everyone who wants to follow. Throw the Avalar out and the size of available territory in Foreven doubles. More room means more write-ups and products, more write-ups and products means more gaming for GMs and their players.


Regards,
Bill

 

[dmccoy1693]

Of course, as I'm not a publishing house

What? Publishing House?!? I didn't put on that much weight during GenCon did I? If anything I"m more like a publishing garage or a publishing spare bedroom.

 

[robject]

What? Publishing House?!? I didn't put on that much weight during GenCon did I? If anything I"m more like a publishing garage or a publishing spare bedroom.

Heh heh.

[...]you both can accomplish what you wish to do while remaining "geographically vague". You both can write up subsector-sized regions that are "somewhere" in Foreven just as Ruritania is somewhere in the Balkans, Graustark is "somewhere" in Eastern Europe, and Kukuanaland is "somewhere" north of the Kalukawe River.
[...]

Heck, subsector-sized regions can be geographically vague to the point of not specifying any particular sector at all. Some very cool material comes from whole-cloth but strictly-constrained inventions.

Canonically, AM4 gave us the Zhodani border, there's nothing we can about that.

True: when working within the rules, one's hands are tied. But, to carry a metaphor waaay too far: "How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?"

Robject, you're interested in writing up the Reidain subsector, the home of the Chamax? You better be prepared then to also write-up the four systems in it that belong to the Avalar Consulate too.

I've yapped enough about the Chamax, haven't I? They're a favorite of many here, me included. You too, I think.

Not to defame Don McKinney, but I don't agree with his views of Foreven. We remain on friendly terms, and actually do agree on some things. I think Foreven is not one of them. I'm always ready to gut Foreven. I can't "legally" do that.

 

[Whipsnade]

If these ships are escorts, then there are trade routes to protect...

Robject,

They aren't escorts. They're very poor warships in every ship combat version after LBB:2. Too many weak batteries for one, poor computer for another. Even the fighters they can carry fare poorly against warships.

What they are is battle taxis. They shuttle merc platoons, deploy merc from orbit, provide ortillery fire, and can carry "fighters" which also support ground operations. They're LSTs or LHAs, not DEs or FFGs.

This means a corporation registered to a Sword Worlds world has doings in or past Foreven. So, for the sake of plot hooks, I ask you: How far? Foreven? Far Frontiers? Beyond?

All three I'd guess, with the chance of meeting one of the ten lower the further you get from Sword Worlds space.

Why buy ten Broadswords *here* then move them 30, 60, 90 parsecs Spinward?

Spend the money at home?

What, can't the fontier build perfectly good Mercenary Cruisers?

The frontier most certainly can, the Swords just didn't avail themselves to that for various reasons; domestic, economic, security, political, etc.

Or, perhaps that's the firepower it takes to run the gauntlet to wherever they need to go?

There is no "gauntlet", look at the maps I posted of the Zhodani-Imperial Border Region. It's wide open with plenty of ways to get there. Throw away the Avalar and it's even more open with more places where those ten Broadswords can work.

What's the Swordies' stake in this?

Combat training? Blooding a continuous cadre of NCOs and field officers who then rotate back into Confederation and planetary ground and/or marine forces?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

True: when working within the rules, one's hands are tied. But, to carry a metaphor waaay too far: "How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?"

Robject,

Nice quote!

My reply would be "I only fast during Lent" meaning, of course, that there is fasting and then there is fasting.

You can write-up a Foreven subsector that takes into account AM4, DA5, and the few other pre-Imperiallines tidbits. Or you can needlessly hem yourself in further with the poorly devised Imperiallines materials.

As an admittedly lazy, gray-headed, fat man, I'm all for easier fasting and writing.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

While remarkable lousy, this map should still be able to get my point across about the Avalar Consulate:

It's too big and too close to the Darrians and Imperials to have had no effect no matter when it was formed.

No, it isn't.

See how easy it was to counter your argument? That's because it was a bald assertation.

The big problem with your line of reasoning is that taken to its logical conclusion, it "proves" that Foreven is empty of stars. Even if every world in Foreven were unpopulated, the Darrians would still need to guard their spinward frontier against Zhodani fleets. And even if there were no interstellar states in Foreven, the Darrians should still have interacted with the individual worlds there, yet there's no mention of that in the history of Darrian that we have access to. The thing that's wrong with the picture isn't that we've no record of the Darrians guarding against/interacting with a big interstellar state in Foreven; it's that we have no record of the Darrians guarding against/interacting with ANYTHING in Foreven.

It's really very simple: The history of Darrian as we know it is incomplete. No big surprise there. No matter how Foreven turns out, that history is going to need to be expanded.

Pre-Fifth Frontier War, post-Fifth Frontier War, used to be the Weltbund, wracked by civil war, none of the excuses work. It's Zhodani allied, it's relatively huge, and it's too damn close.

Actually, it's only Zhodani allied up through history if it didn't use to be the Weltbund. And it's only too huge if the Weltbund used to be a) coordinated and b) hostile. If the Weltbund used to be a loose confederation with its own internal problems, all your objections go away.

You cannot handwave the influence it should have away without snapping all sorts of belief suspenders.

But you have no trouble handwaving the effect the mere existence of dozens of individual inhabited worlds would have had?

What's more, Imperiallianes explicitly describes the Avalar Consulate's role in the sector as: Although many welcome the Imperials, others resist their arrival as an unwelcome intrusion. The most disturbed is the Zhodani Consulate. Having fought for centuries to check Imperial expansionism, the Imperium now threatens to sweep across its rimward frontier. Unfortunately, the Consulate's resources are needed elsewhere, so it must rely on its allies, like the Avalar Consulate, and its intelligence and frontier services, to deal with this crisis.

Well, that's wrong; no argument there. The Imperium hasn't threatened to sweep anywhere since at least the Civil War, arguably since the Consolidation Wars. The way Imperial expansion seems to've worked mostly (at least Behind the Claw) is for people to deliberately leave the Imperium and set up on their own, then for the Imperium to invite their descendants, three or four or five generations later, to join.

Also, the fact that the Zhodani have been fighting the frontier wars in order to check Imperial expansion is a closely guarded secret...

The choice comes down to how many retcons, rewrites, and handwaves you want to inflict on canonical history. If we keep the Avalar, we must rewrite the history of the Marches in order to retcon the Avalar Consulate and apply handwaves to explain it's seeming lack of effect. However, if we throw out the Avalar Consulate we'll only need to make a single change.

Untrue. Whatever we do, just 'activating' Foreven will require additions to the history of the Spinward Marches.


Hans

 

[kafka47]

I cannot see why revising History of the Marches is a bad thing. Perhaps, one way to do it would be from a non Imperial point of view. Therefore, even the most vapid of colonies and polities would have a degree of permanence that would not be awarded, if the observer/author was Imperial. Also, when approaching Foreven, why not give it a real colonial flavour whereby records are routinely lost and not standardifed. Sort of like early colonial history in Australia.

Also, I would want to see the area not insanely detailed as the Marches (am I in the minority here?) but rather lots of hooks that would lead the Referee to confirm that: "Here be dragons" and possibly a few of those might spice up the game.

I have long used Berka's data and my own creations for Foreven but essentially one should view it as a dangerous frontier akin to the Balkans in the aftermath of WW2. Big Powers may meddle but the local authorities really call the shots. This might run counter to Australia being the model but my own researches into the social history of Australia like all the colonies shows that there were lots of micro polities within larger entities like the United States. Or another way of looking at it, would be through the eyes of the Amerindian and their history.