How would you handle battle dress

[justacaveman]

Right, the person alone may run between 100 liters and 150 liters volume. Seating requirements would run it up to about 500 liters or so (this would allow room for controls etc.).

The weight to volume ratios in the design sequences are definitely off though.

For example,if you tried to design an M1 Abrahms tank with the info given, the results would be less than 1/2 of the actual weight of the tank.

If someone has the dimensions of an M1, try it and post the results for comparison.

 

[Zutroi]

Right, the person alone may run between 100 liters and 150 liters volume. Seating requirements would run it up to about 500 liters or so (this would allow room for controls etc.).

What seat? Keep in mind we're discussing battle dress.

Either the figures are wrong for battledress (obviously, since humans are not that big), or they're wrong for everything else! I don't think this is the case, maybe some people would be comfortable sitting in a mere cubic meter of volume, I'm not going to include me. The 1vl=10 liters rule gives a reasonable size for the Jeep (which is a trademark of Daimler Chrysler, I DO hope somebody got clearance!), so I'm apt to stick with it. My most likely work-around will be to simply drop the size of armor components by 90%, but the price will have to go up in compensation. This won't bother the Imperials one bit.

 

[justacaveman]

That is exactly my point.

The design info for Battle Dress lists the operator volume at 110vl. This is either 550 liters or 1100 liters, depending on wich reference you use.

This is the most basic seating space. Your typical car would have double the space or more, but many military vehicles have the minimum amount of space.

It's the weights that are off. The official listed weight is 1Kg per vl (and vice versa). This means that a Weapon that weighs 3.5Kg has a volume of 3.5vl (35 liters). This is about the weight of an M16A2 rifle. No way does it have a volume of 35 liters. 35 liters of water weighs about 35Kg. Believe me an M16 will not float.

Even if the amounts are supposed to be rough approximates, they aren't even close to reality.

 

[Zutroi]

This is the most basic seating space. Your typical car would have double the space or more, but many military vehicles have the minimum amount of space

I seem to be unclear in my observation, so allow me to restate it. Up until T20, battledress has been an armor, not a vehicle. You wear it, you don't drive it. No matter how cramped 110vl units works out to be (550 or 1100 liters) for a car, it's just too big for a suit of armor.

All references to battledress in canon seem to imply that a good read thru "Starship Troopers" and "Forever War" will give an acurate impression of the operation of the suit. You wear it. When you move a leg, for example, your leg presses against sensors inside the leg of the armor. The armor utilizes a negative feedback loop to eliminate the pressure of the leg inside. Result, you move leg, armor surrounding leg also moves. This requires a tight fit to work. A 98 kilo marine occupying 96 liters of space needs a "driver's seat' of exactly 96 liters.

Battledress as a vehicle DOES NOT WORK. As described it's a battle-mech, not a suit of armor. Additions to the design rules are required in order to utilize battledress in T20 without simply 'porting it over' from another system and declaring that 'it was a big vac-suit in CT, so its a big vac-suit in T20' Alternatively, standard designs can be created (as opposed to designed) and added to "Equipment", just like CT and MT did it...

My 20 millicreds worth? Extend the design rules, since I've never heard of a game where people didn't tweak their armor when they could get their hands/claws/paws on some.

 

[TKalbfus]

Zutroi said,

Battledress as a vehicle DOES NOT WORK. As described it's a battle-mech, not a suit of armor. Additions to the design rules are required in order to utilize battledress in T20 without simply 'porting it over' from another system and declaring that 'it was a big vac-suit in CT, so its a big vac-suit in T20' Alternatively, standard designs can be created (as opposed to designed) and added to "Equipment", just like CT and MT did it...

It is powered though so its more than a suit you wear. The reason why its powered is because the armor is too heavy for a human being to carry using his own strength. You can shut down its power source and try "wearing" it, but you won't be very effective if you can't move around. What's wrong with a Battlemech anyway. I think the ones that carry swords and know karate are too silly for Traveller, but the otherones that carry laser cannons are quite viable Powered armor can be slightly bigger and taller that a human or a whole lot bigger and taller. Battledress can in effect be a bipedal walking tank. Bigger suits of Battledress can carry heavier armor and larger weapons.

 

[Zutroi]

Powered armor can be slightly bigger and taller that a human or a whole lot bigger and taller. Battledress can in effect be a bipedal walking tank. Bigger suits of Battledress can carry heavier armor and larger weapons.

No problem here with mechs (although that isn't really Traveller in the opinions of some). The problem to be addressed is the canon clearly indicates powered armor to be just big enough to contain a person, bulking out at somewhere between 50 and 100 percent larger than the human wearing/operating,driving it. The suit in the book bulks out to 30 times the operator's size.

AS WRITTEN, the T20 design sequences are INCAPABLE of producing a canon battle-dress.

Now, if you want to do Mechs for Traveller, the system probably will work just great, although I suspect in a fair fight the designs are probably skewed in favor of grav-vehicles as the War Machines of Choice...

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
AS WRITTEN, the T20 design sequences are INCAPABLE of producing a canon battle-dress.

I'm not actually aware of any design sequence for Traveller which was capable of producing CT-canon battledress. Using FF&S they tend to be armored blocks in the several hundred kilo range. Using Striker there isn't really a relevant design system, but evaluating armor-18 (0.36cm bonded SD) across 2 square meters (avg required for full coverage) you wind up with around 110 kilos of armor, ignoring any other components of the armor. In GURPS, the suits in Ground Forces bulk out to a bit under twice the size of the wearer.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by LordRhys:
For example,if you tried to design an M1 Abrahms tank with the info given, the results would be less than 1/2 of the actual weight of the tank.

But then, the rules doesn't differenciate between 1vl of feathers and 1vl of lead. Using VOLUME to calculate MASS without taking into account the particular material being measured will *NOT* be realistic regardless of the design systems used.

:/

 

[Zutroi]

(In a sarcastic tone) "Sigh"

This is getting nowhere, so I guess I'll just have to up and (Change voice to one of deep resignation) volunteer to come up with a design sequence myself.

Yo! Ancient dudes! A little help here! Maybe part of the "Military Equipment of Known Space" you broadly hinted at in TA#1?

OTOH, it IS the only way to get a SOC elevated in less than a century

 

[Mythmere]

I don't see what is added by making battledress into a vehicle rather than armor. Armor rules aren't necessarily consistent; the rulebook describes the armor, everyone nods heads sagely. This is how it would look (I think):
Medium TL 13 Battledress - powered armor, AC 24 (+10 armor, +5 agility, -1 size), AR 10. Batteries operate 2 weeks without recharge (first departure from vehicle rules - all other personal equipment runs on batteries). A person in battledress will have an effective str of 20 and an effective Dex of 10. Battledress helmets contain medium range communicators, infrared (1km), and light intensification (1 km). Maximum speed in battledress is 10 kph.

If a marine in battledress can only fire and move once every five rounds, the Imperium isn't paying any 95 KCr for battledress, I guarantee you, if a guy in combat armor has only 3 armor rating less and moves and fires five times as fast.

It appears battledress moves only every 5 rounds but can fire each round (when using personal weapons), as per personal attacks in vehicle combat (p. 159).

It looks to me like battledress has a move of about 16m (11 squares), moves and fires normally, and has AC23, AR10. That's a LOT simpler than trying to make it into a vehicle, and it keeps to the spirit of the original concept taken from Starship Troopers, etc.

Add by edit: The only question, if you use the above paragraph to translate vehicle into armor, is whether there is an additional 5 die reduction in damage which is supposed to be included. Note: if there is no agility bonus (which isn't a part of armor), and the ac is increased to 24 again by adding 5 to the AR, then there is that additional 5 dice of damage reduction cropping up out of nowhere. So PERHAPS battle dress is AC23, AR 15.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
(In a sarcastic tone) "Sigh"

This is getting nowhere, so I guess I'll just have to up and (Change voice to one of deep resignation) volunteer to come up with a design sequence myself.

Better yet, I challenge you to come up with the Battle Dress design sequence. It's quite obvious you have a preconcieved idea of what you want out of it. For me, the Battledress in the THB is just fine.

 

[Zutroi]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Zutroi:
(In a sarcastic tone) "Sigh"

This is getting nowhere, so I guess I'll just have to up and (Change voice to one of deep resignation) volunteer to come up with a design sequence myself.

Better yet, I challenge you to come up with the Battle Dress design sequence. It's quite obvious you have a preconcieved idea of what you want out of it. For me, the Battledress in the THB is just fine. </font>[/QUOTE] Perhaps I need a bigger sarcasm emoticon.

**SARCASM MODE OFF**

That was me volunteering to do a design sequence for battledress. In fact, I've got six pages of notes done already! Who do I contact about posting it?

**SARCASM MODE ON**

After all, if I'm going to spend my valuable time and effort on it, it would be nice if everyone else who thinks battledress shouldn't need a two car garage

could take advantage and avoid re-inventing the wheel (despite the fact that the first thing anyone who uses the DS will do is change them!).

 

[justacaveman]

I like the designs in the THB just fine, the weight to vloume ratio needs to be changed to 1 liter equals 1 kilogram in order to conform with reality.