Imperial Army Craft

[BlackBat242]

Ahh... "once dropped you stay dropped"?

"Take over and rule, or die trying"?

The landing forces are expected to, after taking control of the planet, form the new government and breed a new Imperial-derived ruler-class population?

A permanant occupation force?

 

[deniable]

It's more like once you commit the Army you are investing / besieging the world. It also means that once you've committed the Army, you are far more politically committed to taking the world. One of the less mentioned properties of the Marines is that they are easier to get back if you're losing.

To commit the Army to a world would normally require a beach-head / temporary star-port / harbor to for logistics and other needs. Once you have this, you can move men and materials with commercial transport.

 

[aramis]

(looking over the other t.o.e.'s)

they're heavy on weapons and up-front efficient logistics, but I see no casualty retrieval, no hospitals, and no maintenance facilities. perhaps, given the weapons used in traveller, these would be useless as there would be nothing to retrieve or treat or repair afterwards?

I would have expected at least to see a nuke damper in there somewhere, and more EW/ELINT.

I put additional EW/ELINT at Battlation and regiment, along with medical stations and vehicles, plus dedicated recovery elements.

6 man habs take 6 tons as cargo (and expand to 12 tons when deployed), and I could easily pack those on, too, in the second wave.

 

[flykiller]

I put additional EW/ELINT at Battlation and regiment, along with medical stations and vehicles, plus dedicated recovery elements.

ah, so the tail is elsewhere.

imtu a marine company can easily find itself deployed alone, and they seldom are deployed above battalion strength, so they have to bring their tail with them or forget about having it at all.

well, this should give Garyius2003 an idea of what he wants his army to accomplish and how it will have to operate and what it will, therefore, need.

 

[rancke]

Well Rancke, neither does everyone agree with you. I for example disagree and so I state MY view.

And please continue to do so. I'd just like it better if you made sure any newbie who happens to read your opinion doesn't mistake it for a fact.

That aside during war the fleet will operate in Squadrons and (assuming any level of competence) with escorts bolstering the basic squadron layouts. And that will quickly reduce available ships of any kind since ten ships forming a squadron can only be at one place any given time.

Oh sure. No argument there. A lot of the escorts and other auxiliaries will be attached to CruRons and BarRons in wartime. Did I ever say anything to the contrary? If so, it was inadvertently.

But seeing as the Imperium break up BatRons and station individual ships (or, more likely, individual divisions) in separate systems in peacetime (Fighting Ships), some of the escorts may be detached for other jobs too.

As for "they have lots of ship in ordinary": Well that may be so. But judging by the time it takes them to re-fit and re-activate those even in the rather safe Domain it seems to take a lot of time getting them OUT of ordinary. And I guess telling General StumbleAlong to "wait a few years until the ships are ready" is NOT the way to fight a war.

But that's just it. We have rules for how long it takes to build ships and for how long it takes to reactivate mothballed ships. Quite possibly those rules are not exact but simplified for RPG purposes, but I don't think it is unreasonable to accept them as ballpark figures. And if it takes, say, two months to reactivate a cruiser and the Domain still haven't reactivated all its cruisers after three years, you can either assume that Admiral Numbbrain preferred building one new cruiser to reactivating ten mothballed ones, and that his political superiors allowed him to do so, or you can assume that there were a lot of mothballed cruisers.



Hans

 

[rancke]

And let that be a lesson to you, heretic.

How dare you question revealed knowledge, and reject the revised Gospels of MT and TNE!

Take care, lest the "Defenders of the Canon" cast you from this forum for the blasphemy of "Classicalism".

You MUST accept the revealed mysteries of Imperial Assassination and Viral contamination, you have no choice.

You know, for sarcasm to be effective, it should have at least a slight relationship to something real.

I don't think any of us grognards who enjoy discussing canon refrain from questioning it at the drop of a hat. Most of us are actually quite flexible in that regard. If it sometimes appear otherwise, it's because we've been discussing these matters for many years. On many subjects we've already changed our minds long ago. Obviously we're not going to change them again until confronted with some new, compelling argument. This can certainly seem like intractability to people who haven't been through similar discussions before.

The funny thing is that our most bootless discussions tend to be with people who do treat a particular sub-section of canon as holy writ.

PS, there are a lot of us who deny MT/TNE... but we have learned to confine our "hide-bound paleo-gamerisms" to the CT forum, where we are tolerated in the hopes we will eventually "see the light-years" and convert to the "Reformed Traveller Church". :smirk:

See, that's where my approach differs from yours. When confronted with a CT statement and an MT statement that are mutually exclusive, I don't say "I ignore all MT material" or "MT material automatically supersedes CT material". I examine the underlying assumptions and explore the ramifications of the two statements and select the one that (IMO, of course) makes for the most self-consistent background (or, occasionally, if there's a difference, the most fun game universe).


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

And please continue to do so. I'd just like it better if you made sure any newbie who happens to read your opinion doesn't mistake it for a fact.

We had this a few times. It is a matter of reading/opinion. Your view is as much fact as mine.

Oh sure. No argument there. A lot of the escorts and other auxiliaries will be attached to CruRons and BarRons in wartime. Did I ever say anything to the contrary? If so, it was inadvertently.

But seeing as the Imperium break up BatRons and station individual ships (or, more likely, individual divisions) in separate systems in peacetime (Fighting Ships), some of the escorts may be detached for other jobs too.

Peacetime is canon. But during a war? IIRC this whole thread is about Wartime deployment or at least what the Army uses during such a deployment. So how likely is it the Navy will detach crafts during wartime?

But that's just it. We have rules for how long it takes to build ships and for how long it takes to reactivate mothballed ships. Quite possibly those rules are not exact but simplified for RPG purposes, but I don't think it is unreasonable to accept them as ballpark figures. And if it takes, say, two months to reactivate a cruiser and the Domain still haven't reactivated all its cruisers after three years, you can either assume that Admiral Numbbrain preferred building one new cruiser to reactivating ten mothballed ones, and that his political superiors allowed him to do so, or you can assume that there were a lot of mothballed cruisers.

Hans

Given that the Domain is often described as short on ships and crew I take the latter option and assume the Admiral prefered a new toy.

 

[Garyius2003]

So the question is what size a regular orbital arty platform/bay needs to be, and what size is a good module based high port.

Under CT/HG, I would expect the bay sizes to be 50 or 100 tons, either free floating with add on power and thruster packs, or plugged into an army craft.

The high port would have to be big, min 100 ton blocks, with 1000 being even better for cargo transshipping. That way the Army could plug and play, say a 1000 ton block and 500 ton command/control and housing unit for a single regiment high port, and 10 cargo blocks, and housing and office/command blocks, for a corps.

GURPS could be a little smaller.

That means a fleet of small craft, or reuse of the large landers for ferrying the cargo down planetside. Maybe both. Either way, the Army is going to be running a high port and ferry service long after the Navy wants to move on leaving a few ships for system security.

 

[Badbru]

Garyius2003, Why wouldn't the army in question simply commandeer the existing Downport for all their needs? Or, should they really really want something in orbit, the existing Highport, assuming the system in question had one and it wasn't destroyed by the Navy or Marines?

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually I can't see a normal Highport being operated until well after the planet is pacified. Given the cheap missile/space access technology of Traveller launching a spread of Anti-Satellite/Station Missiles against it would be very easy. Even after major resistance has ended there could still be a few missile bunkers left.

If there is an orbital transfer point it will likely be based on a fleet tender or an old warship with heavy armor, point defence and engines to evade any missiles and/or taken over shuttles on a suicide run.

OTOH the question is WHY one should use an orbital installation at all. Satellite seeding/maintenance in Traveller can be done by a Cutter operation from the ground and the supply needs of the army are not as big as today since Point Defence Lasers, Fusion guns and Meson weapons don't need ammo and fuel can be generated on-planet from water. Even Gauss-Needles shouldn't be that complex to produce. For the rest one can rely on war-activated armed frighters like the Oberlindes ships using planetfall-capabel hulls to eliminate the need for a high port.

And building up a port later could be done by using 800dton LASH lighters (as shown in GT), relatively large (IIRC at least 500dton free space), easily transported (20 to a single civilian Jumpship) and very common.

 

[BlackBat242]

Rancke... My post that you quoted was in direct response to Aramis' post (#24, on pg 3), which was in response to the OP's statement (#23, on pg 3) that he only uses CT and GURPS.

Aramis' post was very much a snarky: you posted in Fleet, not CT, therefore you MUST accept all versions' take as official and the way it is!!



Yes, if you wish to drag MT rules into your CT, feel free to do so, but I won't... it is as simple as that.

 

[rancke]

Rancke... My post that you quoted was in direct response to Aramis' post (#24, on pg 3), which was in response to the OP's statement (#23, on pg 3) that he only uses CT and GURPS.

Aramis' post was very much a snarky: you posted in Fleet, not CT, therefore you MUST accept all versions' take as official and the way it is!!

Fair enough. I missed that.

Yes, if you wish to drag MT rules into your CT, feel free to do so, but I won't... it is as simple as that.

I don't worry very much about the rules, as I usually use a mixture. For world building, I use GT:First In with a dash of MT:World Builder's Handbook. For running adventures, I prefer my own house rules (which IMO are better than any commercial rules I know of ), although the last two campaigns I ran used GT rules because I wanted to get to know them. As far as I'm concerned, all the rules are imperfect reflections of the same "reality" (quote marks to indicate that I'm well aware that the Official Traveller Universe is not real; I just treat it as if it is).

What I'm interested in is the game background, and I consider the information we get in MT material to be just as good evidence for what the OTU/GTU is like as CT, TNE, T4, T20, and GT material. If you want to distinguish between a CTU and an MTU, etc., feel free to do so, but I won't... it is as simple as that . Frankly, I don't know just what advantage you gain from ignoring such a large slab of information wholesale, but that's your call.

Note: I've absolutely no objection to anyone discussing the CTU, MTU, etc., but unless it's explicit in a post, I just tend to assume that people are discussing the OTU, and I'm afraid I usually don't bother to track discussions back to their origin. In this case, I got it wrong. Sorry. No offense was intended.


Hans

 

[rancke]

We had this a few times. It is a matter of reading/opinion. Your view is as much fact as mine.

No, my view is as much opinion as yours. Facts are what canon states. Some times two different canon statements contradicts each other. Some times a canon statement is self-contradictory or otherwise nonsensical. But except in those cases, canon statements are facts. In my posts I try to distinguish between canon facts and my opinions. Occasionally I forget or get mixed up, but when I do, I don't get annoyed when others point that out.

Peacetime is canon. But during a war? IIRC this whole thread is about Wartime deployment or at least what the Army uses during such a deployment. So how likely is it the Navy will detach crafts during wartime?

Ah, I'd missed the wartime aspect. How likely? Read up on the Napoleonic Wars. If the government tells the Navy to provide support for a joint operation, the Navy will provide support for the joint operation. (Rivalry between the commanders will sometimes result in absolute disasters, but that's another matter ).

Given that the Domain is often described as short on ships and crew I take the latter option and assume the Admiral preferred a new toy.

Often? How many are 'often'? Can you provide a few examples of quotes where the Domain is described as short on ships?

(Incidentally, it seems to me that being short on crew is evidence of many ships... ).


Hans

 

[jec10]

The problem in the CT universe with the idea that the army only arrives after a highport/downport is secured by the marines (who are the 'door-openers') is that there just aren't that many marine regiments to do the job in a major conflict. Look at 5FW boardgame...eight TL15 Marine Regiments for the Spinward Marches. By way of contrast, there are seven TL15 field armies AND seven TL14/15 corps in the Imperial order of battle (plus various separate divisions, brigades and regiments and the Colonial Army formations available for off-world use). Actual play of 5FW shows that often army troops go on the offensive without the marines (who can't be everywhere).

 

[mbrinkhues]

Ranke let's just say we disagree. I take my view, ignore your view and make use of the ignore function.

 

[deniable]

The problem in the CT universe with the idea that the army only arrives after a highport/downport is secured by the marines (who are the 'door-openers') is that there just aren't that many marine regiments to do the job in a major conflict. Look at 5FW boardgame...eight TL15 Marine Regiments for the Spinward Marches. By way of contrast, there are seven TL15 field armies AND seven TL14/15 corps in the Imperial order of battle (plus various separate divisions, brigades and regiments and the Colonial Army formations available for off-world use). Actual play of 5FW shows that often army troops go on the offensive without the marines (who can't be everywhere).

If things are big enough that the Army is mobilizing corps and army level units, then I assume that they would form their own spearhead units to hit the planet. These troops would force a beach head and provide a DIY class E downport.

The assumption for smaller situations is that the Marines are cheaper and easier to ship around. They have their own ships and don't need to hire/requisition transport. When you commit the Army, commerce suffers.

 

[Garyius2003]

I can see the Navy supplying the Marines, since most forms of the game cap Marine officer ranks fairly low for the huge-ness of the Imperium. That suggests the Marines are really the ground branch of the Navy and the Navy will provide for them.

Resupplying a single regiment from orbit is doable when the regiment (or more likely Bn) only has AFVs, some arty, and needs new power packs for the battledress and weapons and some food and ammo. The mission is either a raid or shortterm intervention. All medical can take place on the ships, and most heavy fire support comes from the same. Plus, when the fleet leaves the regiment does too.

Heck, a few companies can bunk out in some schools and leech off the local grid so long as the fleet stays in orbit and sends down power packs every few days.

A larger formation, though will require huge amounts of support, not to mention the fire support the fleet will not be giving.

An actual division or larger occupying or fighting on a planet will require tons and tons of stuff per day, which has to be shipped in. The 10,000 ton bulk carrier can be chartered to jump in with a fleet cost of a few close and destroyer escorts and maybe an elderly cruiser or two, but the stuff has to get unloaded somewhere and the bulk carrier is not a Navy fleet underway cargo ship designed to load landers or shuttles, it is designed to hook up to a highport.

It will be great if that highport is still in place from pre-invasion or intervention, but that is unlikely at best.

And if the local food can't be used, that daily cargo requirement will soar.

Garyius2003, Why wouldn't the army in question simply commandeer the existing Downport for all their needs? Or, should they really really want something in orbit, the existing Highport, assuming the system in question had one and it wasn't destroyed by the Navy or Marines?

 

[navywarlord]

Logistics is the key to most battles and fighting over a world can provide nightmares for both sides.

Assuming that there are large units dirtside fighting to secure the world, the invading military will require tons of supplies daily and this supply line will have to be protected. A chartered bulk carrier may bring it in but it will have to stay in orbit (and a high one at that, just in case) while army small craft load up and shuttle the stores to a dirtside logistics point, usually the secured starport (or directly to the needy units, if the situation is desperate).... If the opponent ever gets a clean shot at taking out one of these ships, the ground forces will be desperate for supplies until the next ship arrives.
While its the Navy that ensures the goods get to the planet, its the Army (and its COACC) that ensures it get dirtside to the troops that need it.

[Sounds like something for a PC group of commandos to do, doesn't it?]

 

[mbrinkhues]

Logistics is the key to most battles and fighting over a world can provide nightmares for both sides.

Assuming that there are large units dirtside fighting to secure the world, the invading military will require tons of supplies daily and this supply line will have to be protected. A chartered bulk carrier may bring it in but it will have to stay in orbit (and a high one at that, just in case) while army small craft load up and shuttle the stores to a dirtside logistics point, usually the secured starport (or directly to the needy units, if the situation is desperate).... If the opponent ever gets a clean shot at taking out one of these ships, the ground forces will be desperate for supplies until the next ship arrives.
While its the Navy that ensures the goods get to the planet, its the Army (and its COACC) that ensures it get dirtside to the troops that need it.

[Sounds like something for a PC group of commandos to do, doesn't it?]

How about a beefed up LASH tender and/or more powerful lighters. The LASH tender jumps in-system, releases it's lighters that make for the planet at say 3g, land and deploy their cargo quickly either by using Containers on roll-out racks or by carrying the cargo in cutter modules and simply dropping the modules.

In GURPS the tender shown is at 10000dton hull carrying 15 lighters of 800dton each as externals (for a 22000dton jump displacement). Loaded it has J3 and M1. Dragon SBD can replace lighters on a 1:1 base. The original 1g lighter has 550dton cargo and moves at M1 with a normal load.

Beefing that up to military standards will likely result in a slightly larger tender and lighters with less cargo but military ships don't have to make economic sense.

 

[deniable]

How about a beefed up LASH tender and/or more powerful lighters. The LASH tender jumps in-system, releases it's lighters that make for the planet at say 3g, land and deploy their cargo quickly either by using Containers on roll-out racks or by carrying the cargo in cutter modules and simply dropping the modules.

How about renting these on the odd occasions that the Army needs them and putting the savings to other budget items like weapons and equipment for the majority of your missions. If you're shuffling small units around on internal security or counter insurgency then big
LASH setups are only going to sit somewhere generating maintenance and personnel costs. A small number for routine operations might be justifiable, but when a real war starts you're unlikely to have anywhere near the lift you need. Your options then become build, reactivate, rent, steal, or do without.