CT Only: Mentioned in Broadsword?

[Diveguy]

Hmm I should clarify what I mean by combat medic. I’m thinking in terms of units like special forces. I understand they all get at least minimal emergency training but the dedicated specialists.

I have DMs for field equipment vs medbay/ambulance vs hospital/surgical unit and TL in addition to TL. Typically resuscitation/stabilize to avoid shock roll first, transport roll, then we get to recovery or surgery.

Kilemall, lots of variables here, but I will give some comments that may help. Based on military and civilian experience both with medical training, as well as watching others work.

"1" being the Traveller default for "can get a job doing this" would then equal (in U.S. parlance) a typical EMT/military medic. Capable of doing more than just basic first aid, administer some simple meds etc, but not great at long-term care & such (again, being VERY general). OR, this could also represent your nursing assistant/LPN levels - again, basic daily care and such, but not going to be diagnosing things or prescribing meds.

"2" you're looking at your "Paramedic" level, or your mid-range Special Operations/Independent Duty medic. Administers more meds, does actual medical interventions, starts some basic diagnostic stuff. Given the 2D6 range and how bonuses quickly impact things, I'd also allow minor surgery and such, particularly with high-tech assistance - so, stuff like suturing, extremity wounds and so forth. Nothing inside the thoracic cavity (except for needle decompression on a pneumothorax, but that's getting WAY more detailed than I like my games). OR, looking at RN/possibly Physician's Assistant - focused on the medical/preventative care of things more than trauma and emergencies.

"3" in CT is a Doctor. If your game was structured as such, yes I would also include your higher-end Special Operations medics, particularly with some of the training advances of the past twenty years - could only extrapolate such being possible in the future as well. So, covers not just basic but advanced trauma care, community medical care, preventive medicine, and so forth. If you aren't including PA's at 2, then definitely at 3.

4+ you start getting to the specialty care, being an educator as well as a doctor, and so forth.

Another important note (and, a quick way to see people start a debate) is remembering that "pre-hospital emergency care" and "hospital/doctor's office care" are two completely different worlds. There are some fantastic, experienced, skilled paramedics who would have no clue how to handle an oncology patient, despite this skill. Similarly, there are nurses who are amazing in the hospital setting who wouldn't last five minutes trying to stick an IV, while reading EKG leads, and dealing with a moving vehicle as it bounces across potholes. Each side has a use, and one isn't "better" than the other, despite what egos start to say.

If I was running a game? "Well, what's your player's background?" A Medic-2 attached to the Scout Service for her whole career can pull off some different tricks than that Medic-2 who came from a noble background, high-tech, high-pop world.

 

[atpollard]

In CT, each level of skill tended to be acquired during 2 YEARS of performing that task on a full-time employment basis (about 4000 hours of work). So “Driver-1“ would represent all the experiences and knowledge gained working for 4000 hours as a Chauffeur, Cab Driver, or other professional Driver. [based on an average of 2 skills per Term]

I leave it to YOUR imagination to apply that data to the field of “Medicine”.

 

[aramis]

I guess the combat medics (not combat doctors) would be similar. I'm not US citizen, but for what I've heard in US (or at least in some states) combat medics are allowed to work as paramedics once mustered out.t...

USN Corpsmen are generally able to test for EMT3 or EMT4 right off, only a few actually grant them direct equivalence. Several states grant equivalence only while an active duty sailor on leave - so that they are able to do in an emergency off-base what they could on-base.

US Army Medics courses are far less comprehensive, and my former roomie who was a Medic Sgt. used to bitch about it. 90% of his work was "bandages and anaprox"... but 90% of his training was in battlefield "package and transport"

Navy Corpsmen have much wider training due to the historical inability to get patients to docs without them dying... Medical officers were somewhat of a low availability staffing for small combat vessels. So corpsmen had to be able to do much more. I've met several former corpsmen who noted that they had already had most of their first year of PA school curriculum during their IET and OJT. When deployed with Marines, corpsmen often needed to not only package and transport, but also do some emergency repairs so that the patient lives to transport. Note that a USN HC2 (Hospital Corpsman 2nd class; E5) has had to demonstrate more knowledge and skill than the average EMT4 Paramedic. The irony is that the hardest part is said to be remembering what they are no longer allowed to do...

IET: initial entry training
OJT: on the job training.

 

[kilemall]

USN Corpsmen are generally able to test for EMT3 or EMT4 right off, only a few actually grant them direct equivalence. Several states grant equivalence only while an active duty sailor on leave - so that they are able to do in an emergency off-base what they could on-base.

US Army Medics courses are far less comprehensive, and my former roomie who was a Medic Sgt. used to bitch about it. 90% of his work was "bandages and anaprox"... but 90% of his training was in battlefield "package and transport"

Navy Corpsmen have much wider training due to the historical inability to get patients to docs without them dying... Medical officers were somewhat of a low availability staffing for small combat vessels. So corpsmen had to be able to do much more. I've met several former corpsmen who noted that they had already had most of their first year of PA school curriculum during their IET and OJT. When deployed with Marines, corpsmen often needed to not only package and transport, but also do some emergency repairs so that the patient lives to transport. Note that a USN HC2 (Hospital Corpsman 2nd class; E5) has had to demonstrate more knowledge and skill than the average EMT4 Paramedic. The irony is that the hardest part is said to be remembering what they are no longer allowed to do...

IET: initial entry training
OJT: on the job training.

I would think the near full docs would be on the subs, again the furthest in time from a hospital.

Which is the exact scenario for much of Traveller.

 

[Condottiere]

I would think that medical care in the field is very much dependent on the army and specific unit.

As I understand the American special forces, a team is cross trained so you end up with at least two members with medical training, and hearts and minds means that they are qualified up to diagnosing and treating most medical ailments.

With the event of medical evacuation, I would suppose that the current crop of medics can stabilize wounds, one per squad or platoon.

And then you have the Russians, where I get the impression the medic is more of a medical orderly; while distribution is per platoon, size of Russian platoons seem at the low end, especially currently.

 

[Spinward Scout]

well, you set the level of a paramedic to 2.

I guess the combat medics (not combat doctors) would be similar. I'm not US citizen, but for what I've heard in US (or at least in some states) combat medics are allowed to work as paramedics once mustered out.

Of course, this may vary from army to army, nd even from unit to unit...

When Mustered out? They're sending Military Medics to Chicago to learn gunshot wound treatment. It feels strange to NOT have a report of a shooting in any day.

 

[Diveguy]

USN Corpsmen are generally able to test for EMT3 or EMT4 right off, only a few actually grant them direct equivalence. Several states grant equivalence only while an active duty sailor on leave - so that they are able to do in an emergency off-base what they could on-base.

US Army Medics courses are far less comprehensive, and my former roomie who was a Medic Sgt. used to bitch about it. 90% of his work was "bandages and anaprox"... but 90% of his training was in battlefield "package and transport"

Navy Corpsmen have much wider training due to the historical inability to get patients to docs without them dying... Medical officers were somewhat of a low availability staffing for small combat vessels. So corpsmen had to be able to do much more. I've met several former corpsmen who noted that they had already had most of their first year of PA school curriculum during their IET and OJT. When deployed with Marines, corpsmen often needed to not only package and transport, but also do some emergency repairs so that the patient lives to transport. Note that a USN HC2 (Hospital Corpsman 2nd class; E5) has had to demonstrate more knowledge and skill than the average EMT4 Paramedic. The irony is that the hardest part is said to be remembering what they are no longer allowed to do...

IET: initial entry training
OJT: on the job training.

Is this a recent change? Because when I taught EMT Basic as an adjunct in the 90s we required Corpsmen to go through the class, it was not an automatic test-out. OTOH - Special Operations Medics received their Paramedic certification as part of their training - "Goat School" being almost a year long. I can't speak to Fleet Marine Force Corpsman training, as I didn't work with those guys frequently.

HOWEVER, disregarding the "test-out/certification" thing - YES, your average deployed Navy corpsman (particularly if independent duty) had a HUGE amount more leeway and skill set than would be expected. The guys/girls stuck at hospital commands were dealing with much more mundane stuff similar to your Army friend.

And, that's not counting "other" folks. For example, I wasn't a Corpsman, but because of our mission set we wouldn't always have one attached. So, our command was willing to foot the bill for me to get EMT (Intermediate) certified so that we had that capability during demo, diving, jump operations and the like. So, while I wasn't dealing with "I have the sniffles" or other daily stuff, I was expected to handle at least basic trauma-interventions in the field, and help stabilize til real medics could take over.

 

[kilemall]

Is this a recent change? Because when I taught EMT Basic as an adjunct in the 90s we required Corpsmen to go through the class, it was not an automatic test-out. OTOH - Special Operations Medics received their Paramedic certification as part of their training - "Goat School" being almost a year long. I can't speak to Fleet Marine Force Corpsman training, as I didn't work with those guys frequently.

HOWEVER, disregarding the "test-out/certification" thing - YES, your average deployed Navy corpsman (particularly if independent duty) had a HUGE amount more leeway and skill set than would be expected. The guys/girls stuck at hospital commands were dealing with much more mundane stuff similar to your Army friend.

And, that's not counting "other" folks. For example, I wasn't a Corpsman, but because of our mission set we wouldn't always have one attached. So, our command was willing to foot the bill for me to get EMT (Intermediate) certified so that we had that capability during demo, diving, jump operations and the like. So, while I wasn't dealing with "I have the sniffles" or other daily stuff, I was expected to handle at least basic trauma-interventions in the field, and help stabilize til real medics could take over.

So Medical-2 at least, yes?

 

[Diveguy]

When Mustered out? They're sending Military Medics to Chicago to learn gunshot wound treatment. It feels strange to NOT have a report of a shooting in any day.

Yes, SOCOM has had a program for 20+ years where they send the student medics to major cities not just for gunshot wounds, but real world trauma response in general. It's had fantastic results, and gets consistently great feedback.

 

[Diveguy]

So Medical-2 at least, yes?

I'd be comfortable saying "any" military medic would be CT Medical - 1, and anything related to "Special Operations/Independent Duty" would probably be level 2. Which, again, correlates to the earlier "equivalencies" we all discussed.

FWIW, in my games Medical skill is either battlefield first aid, or "unusual circumstances" - if the characters can survive the combat then odds are the "autodoc" etc can at least keep them stable. But, of course, certain role playing events the difference between that 1 & 2 may be critical...

 

[Diveguy]

I'd be comfortable saying "any" military medic would be CT Medical - 1, and anything related to "Special Operations/Independent Duty" would probably be level 2. Which, again, correlates to the earlier "equivalencies" we all discussed.

FWIW, in my games Medical skill is either battlefield first aid, or "unusual circumstances" - if the characters can survive the combat then odds are the "autodoc" etc can at least keep them stable. But, of course, certain role playing events the difference between that 1 & 2 may be critical...

EDIT: Though, this is CT, so the proper order of operations would be "OK, my character has Medical 2 as a Marine, how come?"

 

[atpollard]

EDIT: Though, this is CT, so the proper order of operations would be "OK, my character has Medical 2 as a Marine, how come?"

You were shot so many times … that you picked up SOMETHING during all those Hospital Stays.

 

[mike wightman]

Stuck on a ship for years at a time you got to watch every episode of ER, Gray's Anatomy etc.

 

[Diveguy]

You were shot so many times … that you picked up SOMETHING during all those Hospital Stays.

LOL not too far off base for some people, trust me. Why do you think I liked having the skill set? If things went pear-shaped I figured I'd at least have a clue as to what to do for myself...

Mind you, it comes with the countering disadvantage of "don't think Medical 1.5 is equivalent to Medical 3, no matter how many of the same words you know."

 

[aramis]

Is this a recent change? Because when I taught EMT Basic as an adjunct in the 90s we required Corpsmen to go through the class, it was not an automatic test-out. OTOH - Special Operations Medics received their Paramedic certification as part of their training - "Goat School" being almost a year long. I can't speak to Fleet Marine Force Corpsman training, as I didn't work with those guys frequently.

Late 80s and Early 90's, I was a volunteer for the EMT I exams via Anchorage School District and University of Alaska.
I know that Alaska allowed the University to CLEP test EMT I and II, because one of the guys who pulled me out of a rig in a KED was doing so. He also was still wearing his bluejacket, and had evidence of Able stripes (E3). Without Class A/B/C/D uniform, an AFID, or a copy of a personnel action, I can't tell if he held HN or HMSN. The look on his face when I asked his rate was one of sheer joy... but Hospitalman is the term for both rates at e3.

Likewise, those who took the EMT 1 course but were below 18 had to retest after their 18th birthday. (Anchorage School district offered the EMT 1 course to Juniors and Seniors, but the state would not at that time allow them to get licensed before age 18. Most did.

 

[Krikkitone]

Stuck on a ship for years at a time you got to watch every episode of ER, Gray's Anatomy etc.

That’s for Medic-(-2) skill, not Medic-2 skill

 

[Diveguy]

Late 80s and Early 90's, I was a volunteer for the EMT I exams via Anchorage School District and University of Alaska.
I know that Alaska allowed the University to CLEP test EMT I and II, because one of the guys who pulled me out of a rig in a KED was doing so. He also was still wearing his bluejacket, and had evidence of Able stripes (E3). Without Class A/B/C/D uniform, an AFID, or a copy of a personnel action, I can't tell if he held HN or HMSN. The look on his face when I asked his rate was one of sheer joy... but Hospitalman is the term for both rates at e3.

Likewise, those who took the EMT 1 course but were below 18 had to retest after their 18th birthday. (Anchorage School district offered the EMT 1 course to Juniors and Seniors, but the state would not at that time allow them to get licensed before age 18. Most did.

Interesting, and good to know. I wasn't ever in Alaska, so hadn't heard that. Thank you for sharing.
KED - that's an acronym I haven't heard in a very long time...

 

[aramis]

Interesting, and good to know. I wasn't ever in Alaska, so hadn't heard that. Thank you for sharing.
KED - that's an acronym I haven't heard in a very long time...

Anchorage Fire Department was still using the KED in 2005 or so... when I was extracted from my just then shortened Oldsmobile wagon. Offender got 5 and a life ban on owning/operating vehicles with motors. And by a medic who'd seen me in his EMT I exam. I remember him asking me if I'd been the guy....

Also - found a current bit on transition... Navy Corpsmen can take a 24 hour refresher course, then test, if they haven't taken or maintained the NAEMT cert from the A school.

Certification Tips For U.S. Navy Corpsman Transitioning to Civilian Workforce +

U.S. Navy Corpsman perform advanced medical procedures in various locations on many different platforms. Whether they are on a submarine or in the back of a military vehicle, they act as first-line medical providers for U.S. service members, coalition and enemy forces, and civilians.

www.nremt.org

 

[Diveguy]

Anchorage Fire Department was still using the KED in 2005 or so... when I was extracted from my just then shortened Oldsmobile wagon. Offender got 5 and a life ban on owning/operating vehicles with motors. And by a medic who'd seen me in his EMT I exam. I remember him asking me if I'd been the guy....

Also - found a current bit on transition... Navy Corpsmen can take a 24 hour refresher course, then test, if they haven't taken or maintained the NAEMT cert from the A school.

Certification Tips For U.S. Navy Corpsman Transitioning to Civilian Workforce +

U.S. Navy Corpsman perform advanced medical procedures in various locations on many different platforms. Whether they are on a submarine or in the back of a military vehicle, they act as first-line medical providers for U.S. service members, coalition and enemy forces, and civilians.

www.nremt.org

You learn something new... thank you for that.
Which, is why I frequently remind myself and others, *my* military experience doesn't reflect current standards or events.
Something to put in the back of the mind for our adventurers as well, I'm sure.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I have to revive this thread. Having read all five pages for back forth
1. RAM Grenades are not that bad in combat, I have fired them when working with the 1er RPIMA embedded ETT in eastern Afghanistan. The APAV 40 has quite a punch and will penetrate 3.9inches of armor. The AC58 can punch through 10+ inches armor. However having been a grenadier I will take my 203 any day of the week and what I have heard is the M321 is even better.

2. I do not agree with the statement Navy Corpsman are on par with Paramedics. Not even under the new joint curriculum at JB San Antonio. IMO an EMT Basic/Advanced is Medic-0, A Paramedic or SOCMC/SARC is a Medic-1, the Surface Fleet/ FMF/ Special Ops IDC’s are Medic-2 about the same level as a Nurse, and a PA or MD is Medic-3 . The USAF Pararescue guys are Medic-2 as well.
Just FYI I have 15 Years Fire/EMS as a NREMT-P/ CCEMT-P / DMT and 11 Years Military Medicine (11B2V / 68W3V W1) before I retired.