Uniforms

[Wayne]

Spiderfish asked

Space Training Staff?

How do you define these space training staff? What is their exact role on the ship as well?

Space Training Stuff are not ships crew, but Navel Base staff that join the ship as 'outside the chain' observers/assessors of the ship command and crew for up to a month of in system training.
A ship must pass STS requirements if it is to see any operational duties.
This includes, but not limited to, combat drills, damage control, threat level assessment, and ROE knowledge.
All ship will normally be assessed be STS once ever 2 years or if crew turnover of +75% of total crew.
STS my also hit a ship with a surprise drill (combat and/or damage) when at any Navy Base.

This is all based off of Canadian Navy Sea Training Staff, who I know all to well.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Getting back to the Vargr question; it seems like much of the discussion has been understandably lent to human or human-like interface and interaction, but the Imperium (and other empires) have other sentients in their ranks (Newts, Vargr, Virushi, Aslan, etc.).

This being the case, to me at least, it would seem that a common visual or perceived code would more appropiate for insignia. I think a full bodied black and white pattern on the front and back of the uniform (or left and right rib/chest sides for Centaurs and/or Virushi or other oversized crew members) more appropiate. What such insignia would look like is beyond me, but I would think it functional, and perhaps less emersed in artistic insignia tradition as per current Earth military (dolphins for submariners, wings and shield for pilots, or crossed cannon and rampart for army engineers, etc.).

The vacc suit question- as was pointed out a few posts up the World Builder's Handbook had a plethora of vacc and hostile environment suits available. If you're in a turret or on flight deck ops you might be wearing the heavy duty version while on duty or at general quarters. Otherwise you'd probably be wandering the ship in a jump suit fatigue, not unlike what today's submariners and shuttle astronauts wear- again, as was pointed out earlier.

In a place and time like the Imperium our understanding of engineered tailoring is really best left to the immagination. Remember what Traveller is, a do-all Sci-fi RPG. If you want those suits in Dune, the kind that purify and pump waste water, then make up some rules for them.

Similarly anything from Star Wars Stormtrooper armor, to Starcraft cyber tank armor for Protoss warriors is just a matter of creating a realistic presentation within the ruleset, and not so much an exploration of how Storm trooper armor or Protoss technology actually works. It's a neat exercise, and if anybody's up to a good discussion on those things, then hey, I'm up for it

Otherwise I think what a uniform does in the game is what's important for the players.

Just my 0.02cr's worth of wisdom.

 

[kafka47]

I am interested to hear what type of SF movie uniforms directly inspires things in your Traveller universe.

For example, for a very long time, before seeing the CT renditions, I always imagined the Imperial uniforms in Star Wars to be identitical to those that the Imperium would war...only to find out now these are for the Yilians.

Similarly, much of TL civilian wear seems to be inspired by SF of the 1960s in Barbarella modes save no curves.

Does Marc have a standard for uniforms or is it up to the artists own discretion, as it seems like Battledress was remarkably uniform in MT but then we had all sorts of variants appeared in other versions of Traveller.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Aliens fir Marines and Army and Enterprise for navy and Merchants and Navy.

 

[Vargas]

"Aaaghh!!! I hated the days we trained in MOPP 4!!!!"

Many years ago I worked in an office where an Army officer spent the day in MOPP gear as part of some sort of qualification. Visitors had to be buzzed in to the office and the first thing they saw was this guy in his suit working at a PC.

"For example, for a very long time, before seeing the CT renditions, I always imagined the Imperial uniforms in Star Wars . . ."

A friend once said he thought that the Soviet Navy uniforms from 'Hunt For Red October' would be a good model for the IN's uniforms.

"Aliens for Marines and Army and Enterprise for navy and Merchants and Navy."

Cool ideas.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

of cause I'm parchaial to a RCES Body Sleeve like garment being the bace level for Navy and Marine shipbord uiniforms at TL12+ with Jackets and uility vests and other over garments bean added as nead be.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

IISS uniforms are almost exactly like those in Enterprise (only scruffier and with baseball caps).

Solomani Marine combat armour looks like SW Imperial Stormtroopers, only black.

 

[TheBrain]

"Solomani Marine combat armour looks like SW Imperial Stormtroopers, only black."


Except it does something for you when it gets hit besides destroying a bit of ozone layer.

 

[MR TEK]

Someone above mentioned "us" against "them".

I missed service, (deigned on a medical in the 80's) but my trade is electronics and computers, so I work with LOTS of ex-service people.

"us" against "them" is a natural condition in and out of the service. If anything, the rivalry between the branches drives the differences in uniforms as much as anything else.

In the future as jobs get ever more specialized, there will be even more of that sort of thing.

To make a starship run, each department will come to believe that they are the KEY to keeping the ship running. For example, regular crew would likely not be ALLOWED, in engendering spaces, and officers might only be tolerated, within limits. Same for life support, nav. and flight crew, gunnery, and of course the small craft crews and mechanics will defend themselves by adopting there own identifying gear. You guys from the service remember how much first watch and third watch, IN THE SAME DEPARTMENT, manning the same stations resent each other, now take 5700 YEARS of tradition to build, and tell me different departments are not going to DEMAND a way to tell each other apart by uniform.

I would think color-coding, or some other system that says, "Hey, I BELONG to the drive section" would be a natural progression.

And the discussion of flight crews goes even stronger for people in vacc suits. With out facial features, or even general build, and all comm. by radio, PLUS the most hazardous environment imaginable, any crew over 3 or 4 is going to NEED real clear visual clues to know who is who. Otherwise fatal mistakes in ID become way to difficult to avoid. Even inside the ship, working on the engines say, looking a couple of hundred meters across the deck to see who just came through the hatch, color and VERY BIG markings are the only clues you will have who the guy that just crawled through the hatch is. Is it your partner coming back with the jump grid depolarizer you need, the chief coming to see why you are taking so long, or that pesky quartermaster coming back to tell you one more time why you can’t get your replacement parts, ‘cuase you didn’t get the right chiefs signature and thumb print in the right box.

Just my .02cr, but it seems to be the way things get when tradition builds up long enough, and the third imperium is driven by ritual and tradition.

On the other hand, I agree that the style is going to be as utilitarian as possible, at least in the “working” departments. Drives, power, life support, avionics, computers, all of those crew. Flight crew, Nav, flight systems, comm. scanners, don’t have quite the need to pack tools with them wherever they go, and duty uniforms might be a little more dressy.

Personally, only my opinion, and my TU, but I always thought of dress uniforms as elaborate in the extreme. Again after ages of tradition, elaborate uniforms that are difficult to make all of various epaulettes and cravats and other adornments hang just right would be just the thing to show the planet-siders just what spit and polish it takes to be a REAL MAN( or woman for that matter) and travel the stars. Army will try to out shine the NAVY, ‘cause you know the ground pounders HAVE to show up those Nave pukes that think setting in a chair pushing buttons is work, and Jar heads, well they are just going to be jar heads and have to out do everybody, just to prove their not really jar-heads. (Sorry, my old man was a swabbie, and I was signed for 6 for reactors on subs, so my own service biases are shining though. NO intent to insult ANYONE that has served their duty, but the service folks all know how one branch feels about another.)

Then of course there are the merchants. Their dockside dress uniform HAS to make them look prosperous, hence elaborate, and expensive, if they have any hope of drawing business. Subsidizes merchants probably won’t wear dress often, but I bet you, the tramps and the free traders are going to look like clowns trying to be walking billboards. And crew probably won’t be allowed off ship with their best dockside gear on. Got to look PRO-FESS-ION-AL like to impress the passengers and the mercantile exchanges.

Anyway, my thoughts.

Mr TEK

 

[kafka47]

Also would the Solomani not have dress uniforms that would resemble the SS? The uniform would naturally be devoid of Nazi traces substituting the symbol of the Solomani Cause.

If MJD ever gets around to a Third Imperium sourcebook...surely a section on uniforms complete with illustrations would not go amiss.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, the Nazi uniforms were created by a well known fashion designer (their name escapes me), which is why there's such a fascination with the whole Nazi-thing enlarge.

I'm not sure the Sols would have similar uniforms. It really depends on their fashion sense. The whole Solomani movement, from what I remember reading of it, is more of a haphazard kind of racism, rather than ethos filled with pomp, ceremony and regimentation as was the case of the Nazi movement.

But that's just my opinion. It is a confederation, so I would think the uniforms would vary even more than Sylean Federation's various forces.

 

[flykiller]

You guys from the service remember how much first watch and third watch, IN THE SAME DEPARTMENT, manning the same stations resent each other

can't say I do

Just my .02cr, but it seems to be the way things get when tradition builds up long enough, and the third imperium is driven by ritual and tradition.

given that the imperium consists of a large number of races and worlds each with their own long history and cultural traditions, it's likely there would be great pressure to conform to a single standard to emphasize the unity and single purpose of the imperial armed forces. there may be uniform distinctions with regard to rank and job (there always are), but the officer corps would keep a weather eye for any display of factionalism or unionism.

 

[SanDragon]

Originally posted by 313:
Of course I'm partial to an RCES body-sleeve-like garment being the base level for Navy and Marine shipbord uniforms at TL12+, with jackets and uility vests and other overgarments being added as need be.

Eeewww! That sounds like pulling a sock on, all the way up to my neck!!

 

[kafka47]

Yup, the Sols are a Confederation in the sense how they govern each worlds. But remarkably centralized when it comes to the functions of government such as the Armed Forces or Internal Security. Very much akin to what Germany had planned after the New Order was established.

Here I am thinking of the German WWII dress uniforms as duplicating the Solomani of M1000. But, I think the whole fancination with the uniforms of that era was that they were function but stylish.

Stripped of the regalia, the German uniforms would look quite benign. The Sylveans would also strive toward a multiplicity of uniforms depending upon the era. When I asked Marc...he sent me things that looked like Roman centurian armour for what he visualized the Imperium to have. Clearly, that has undergone several revisions at least since the advent of The Traveller Book and The Traveller Adventure which portrayed more high collars/turtleneck styles for the military.

To get a definate ruling in a Third Imperium Sourcebook that I am hoping MJD will write plus more illustrations that match MT would be great. So...what do the folks who make T20 think of a uniform guide together maybe with an equipment guide...pity I cannot draw to save my life...<sigh>

 

[Uncle Bob]

As a point of interest, the US Army has a new combat uniform. This image has been widely pulicized, but the colors are much too gray.

This picture shows the same uniform (on the left) worn more casually, and the color is true. It can also be worn with a camoflage "patrol cap".

 

[Zutroi]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
SNIP No buttons, all velcro and zippers. SNIP

And here I'd heard that the military had developed a dislike for velcro and zippers, since such closures are impossible to open without making a very distinct and recognizable sound. Buttons, on the other hand, are completely silent (except when they snag on things...)

Also, I can't say that I think much for the little rank insignia on the solar plexus. It just reminds me too much of the reason real fencing jackets don't have the stupid little heart you always see on them in the movies - namely that only a moron applies a target to himself! Of course ITRW the insignia will be covered over by the body armor... so why bother with it at all? Maybe as a collar tab though?

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Also would the Solomani not have dress uniforms that would resemble the SS? The uniform would naturally be devoid of Nazi traces substituting the symbol of the Solomani Cause.

If MJD ever gets around to a Third Imperium sourcebook...surely a section on uniforms complete with illustrations would not go amiss.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
And here I'd heard that the military had developed a dislike for velcro and zippers, since such closures are impossible to open without making a very distinct and recognizable sound. Buttons, on the other hand, are completely silent (except when they snag on things...)

Buttons are out because they leave bruises when the body armor rubs. Zippers or velcro on the chest pockets (under the srmor vest) is unlkely to be opened in combat. Velcro is mostly being used to attatch insignia and Natick Labs is looking for a quiet replacement.

Also, I can't say that I think much for the little rank insignia on the solar plexus. It just reminds me too much of the reason real fencing jackets don't have the stupid little heart you always see on them in the movies - namely that only a moron applies a target to himself! Of course ITRW the insignia will be covered over by the body armor... so why bother with it at all? Maybe as a collar tab though?

Back in the 19th Century the heart was the only target for experts with foils, so an embroidered heart indicated a man who was willing to play by those diffcult rules. The FIE and the Olympics never recognized the heart-only target, so it fell out of fashion.

Insignia on the collar would be obscured by the collar of the flak jacket. A better option might be sleeve insignia, either upper arm like the wehrmacht winter uniforms or cuff chevrons like West Point cadets.

But I think I saw this same chest tab on an Interceptor vest, dead center on the SAP plate. Damn good place for a aimpoint, IMHO.

 

[Straybow]

Even medieval castle builders knew to make offset arrow slits to psychologically mess with an opponent's aim.
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[Uncle Bob]

Yeah, but with rifle-proof armor you want them to hit the center of the plate. Screw up his aim and he might take out an arm or leg.