War in the imperium / War in Iraq

[Dynamo]

Somehow they seem to have not only survived, but prospered.
Looking at the Imperial Survey map your superior officer at Regina advises you that your policy of hurry up and wait might not work. This particular race of Humaniti has probably been adapted to the atmosphere and the planets ecosystem. Remembering that its a TL4 and extrapolating data concerning main jump and trade routes your advisors point out that no jump or trade routes going near Dhian or its neighbor Paya probably mean that the citizens of Dhian are used to being autonomous and can survive without large scale trade.
The presence of an Xboat link however makes the recovery of this sector even more important and he authorizes you to activate 100,000 more troops.

 

[Dynamo]

IISS reports coming from Dhian are confused but seem to imply the Dhians are highly organized but that a signifigant segment of the population does not want war. A news file included in the brief seems to suggest that the imperial governer and civil service have been rounded up and are now in a "concentration camp" Martial Law has been declared and fortifications are being prepared at the behest of the New Governer (who is apparently related to the Mercenery Commander)

 

[TKalbfus]

I can picture in now. The Dhian calvalry on their beasts of burden in their fine plumage and brightly colored uniforms with brass buttons. Calvary pistols ready while on either side of them are the Dhian Troopers with their muskets ready to Charge. One man in each regiment carries the flag and their regimental colors. The bugeler sounds charge and the Calvary spurs their beasts into action. The troopers load their powder and musket balls into their rifles and ram them down with their ram rods. On the other side of the battlefield the Gravtanks gather and the fighters screech across the sky dropping their bombs that zero right in on the troop concentrations below. If their lucky the gravtankers might have something to shoot at.

 

[Elliot]

In reply to Saulweaver above - have you seen the pictures of the Royal Marine around Basra who received 4 shots to the head from an AK-47, none of which penetrated the Kevlar shell of the standard issue helmet. In the words of Monty Python he is one lucky b*****d but his luck was increased by the superior tech level of the coalition forces.

By the way my condolences go to all of our soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians killed in the war!

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Dynamo:
Somehow they seem to have not only survived, but prospered.
Looking at the Imperial Survey map your superior officer at Regina advises you that your policy of hurry up and wait might not work. This particular race of Humaniti has probably been adapted to the atmosphere and the planets ecosystem. Remembering that its a TL4 and extrapolating data concerning main jump and trade routes your advisors point out that no jump or trade routes going near Dhian or its neighbor Paya probably mean that the citizens of Dhian are used to being autonomous and can survive without large scale trade.
The presence of an Xboat link however makes the recovery of this sector even more important and he authorizes you to activate 100,000 more troops.

Oh, we really just want to safeguard the Xboat route? From a bunch of savages with muskets and a peculiar suitability for an exotic atmosphere? But they are able to sabotage a Class A starport (at least badly enough that the Imperium noticed) Right ...

Don't bother hassling with them ... the only military force that need to be dealt with are the mercenaries - easy answer, buy them out - hard answer, wipe them out.

Next step, work with the movers and shakers, the people who tell 'the people' to rise up and revolt. Start off being nice, then get nasty - with the technology available to the Imperium you could easily assassinate every one of them. Then subvert some charismatic locals (perhaps ones working outsystem - say at Regina) and get them to suggest this is a bad idea - and something that puts the next harvest at risk - if they still don't play ball then keep them on the edge of panic so that they can't spare people to bring in the next harvest, and then starve them into submission.

At the same time cut them off from all outside contact - heck, isn't that what Red/Amber Zones are designed to do? They will come around soon enough ...

 

[Dynamo]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
[/QB]

Oh, we really just want to safeguard the Xboat route? From a bunch of savages with muskets and a peculiar suitability for an exotic atmosphere? But they are able to sabotage a Class A starport (at least badly enough that the Imperium noticed) Right ...

Don't bother hassling with them ... the only military force that need to be dealt with are the mercenaries - easy answer, buy them out - hard answer, wipe them out.

Next step, work with the movers and shakers, the people who tell 'the people' to rise up and revolt. Start off being nice, then get nasty - with the technology available to the Imperium you could easily assassinate every one of them. Then subvert some charismatic locals (perhaps ones working outsystem - say at Regina) and get them to suggest this is a bad idea - and something that puts the next harvest at risk - if they still don't play ball then keep them on the edge of panic so that they can't spare people to bring in the next harvest, and then starve them into submission.

At the same time cut them off from all outside contact - heck, isn't that what Red/Amber Zones are designed to do? They will come around soon enough ...

[/QB][/QUOTE]


Now thats thinking like a real Imperial Magistrate. The best way to fight a war is to avoid fighting a war. Remember kiddies, when diplomacy and treachery fail you have failed.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Dynamo:
Now thats thinking like a real Imperial Magistrate. The best way to fight a war is to avoid fighting a war. Remember kiddies, when diplomacy and treachery fail you have failed.

It's all a matter of suiting your actions to your desired results ... now if we wanted to 'liberate the people' and 'remove the regime' that was currently there, then we could have a much harder job, and so need more troops.

Liberating people is always very difficult - usually people have to liberate themselves. You can help liberate them, you can decapitate the regime they are under, but you can't help them become liberated unless they are willing to stand up and liberate themselves. At the end of the day they have to be able to live free without you being there.

Of course the Third Imperium probably doesn't much care for liberty, it's overrated when compared to a good old fashioned feudal system.

The Julian Protectorate has a much harder call to make, because central to their existence is the tenet that Human and Vargr equality is a good thing. Member states are ranked by their ability to achieve this equality, and can be kicked out, or Amber zoned if they do not comply. They might well get into this sort of a war, particularly with systems that form part of the Third Empire of Gashikan ... in fact my current campaign is based around that!

 

[plop101]

Well, I dunno about war in the Imperuim/war in Iraq, but I have been thinking about the Interstellar Wars and the War in Iraq. I've been waiting to see headlines like "101st Air Assault lands on Shurrupak," or "Marines assault Lakash." It seems like these places have already been by passed, but who knows. It would be a neat coincidence if it where to happen.

 

[marginaleye]

The utterly insignificant squabbles of pre-starflight Terra's long-forgotten nations may be of interest to a few highly-specialized historians, but they probably doesn't have much of an impact on the lives of the inhabitants of Third Imperium (how much thought do we give to those of the ancient Sumerian city-states?)

(grabbing this unruly thread by the scruff of its flea-bitten neck and trying desperately to haul it back onto topic...)

But, seriously...
How does the Third Imperium cope with "failed states" and "asymmetrical warfare?" Yes, yes, the standard answer is slap a Red Zone on the planet, enforce it with a few warships in orbit and (if the planet is wealthy enough to be worth salvaging), occupy it, install an Imperial governor, and burn anyone who resists to a crisp with plasma-guns but the Imperium is a very big place, and the very nature of the game seems to assume that there are a fair number of people drifting from one star system to the next, without encountering too many legal obstacles. If happy bands of opportunistic adventurers can wander around the Imperium (getting into and out of trouble) then so can conspirators and violent fanatics. And, as everyone knows, Space is Big, which means that there are plenty of places for (ahem) "non-state actors" to hide whatever they wish to keep hidden.

...And the mayhem and murder potential of countless fusion-powered starships in private hands is, well, mind-boggling.

 

[TKalbfus]

I think the citizens of the Third Imperium would of necessity have a higher tolerance for pain, and warfare than would the citizens of the United States. The Third Imperium may have a decent Emperor who wants nothing but the best for his subjects, but it needs to be remembered that it is not a democracy. The Imperium citizenry have not constitutional power to change the government. The Emperor will listen to their complaints if he is in a good mood. If they start pulling some "Anti Vietnam War Flag burning" protests, the Emperor will most likely not be amused if he finds out about it. Disrespectful protesters will most likely be ignored if they are lucky. The Imperium despite being a nondemocracy has some rather progressive notions about interspecies relations. The Solomani Confederation is like a mirror image of the Imperium, it is a republic of sorts with regards to Solomani humans but other races are second class citizens if even that. Both nations have their flaws, its kind of like The Confederate States of America vs a cosmopolitain Roman Empire under one of the good Emperors. The Imperium is alot more progressive than the old Romans, but that could change with every new Emperor. Sooner or later the Imperium will have a bad Tyrannical Emperor. Fortunately the slow speed of communication will prevent him from exercising the sort of control he would like, but the core worlds would suffer.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I think the citizens of the Third Imperium would of necessity have a higher tolerance for pain, and warfare than would the citizens of the United States.

MY REPLY
Why would the Imperium need to have a higher tolerance of pain than the citizens of the USA, The death rate in the USA from guns is about 1 in 15000 people (if you watch movies its 1 in 10) so the imperium could loose about 2 planets a year and not notice it.
----------

The Third Imperium may have a decent Emperor who wants nothing but the best for his subjects,

MY REPLY
The emperor dosnt have subjects the impirium rules the space between planets not the planets themselves.
----------
but it needs to be remembered that it is not a democracy. The Imperium citizenry have not constitutional power to change the government.

MY REPLY
Some do some dont.
-----------
The Emperor will listen to their complaints if he is in a good mood. If they start pulling some "Anti Vietnam War Flag burning" protests, the Emperor will most likely not be amused if he finds out about it. Disrespectful protesters will most likely be ignored if they are lucky.

MY REPLY
This would depend on the governor who if he used force would have to explane why he was undermining the Imperium.
--------------
The Imperium despite being a nondemocracy has some rather progressive notions about interspecies relations. The Solomani Confederation is like a mirror image of the Imperium, it is a republic of sorts with regards to Solomani humans but other races are second class citizens if even that. Both nations have their flaws, its kind of like The Confederate States of America vs a cosmopolitain Roman Empire under one of the good Emperors. The Imperium is alot more progressive than the old Romans, but that could change with every new Emperor. Sooner or later the Imperium will have a bad Tyrannical Emperor.

MY REPLY
You cant have an Empire without being Tyrannical.
--------------
Fortunately the slow speed of communication will prevent him from exercising the sort of control he would like, but the core worlds would suffer.

MY REPLY
Why would the speed of communications make any difference (the second war of independance between England and America was still being waged 9 months after peace had been signed ( the battle of New Orleans)) so distance could be a problem not a help, if the Emperor is killed his policies will continue to be implemented until someone stops them.
-----------

 

[TKalbfus]

Lionel Deffries said,

MY REPLY
Why would the Imperium need to have a higher tolerance of pain than the citizens of the USA, The death rate in the USA from guns is about 1 in 15000 people (if you watch movies its 1 in 10) so the imperium could loose about 2 planets a year and not notice it.

Most murders aren't reported in the National media, war casualities are because they are the direct result of a country's action. More people are aware of the death figures in a war than they are about random crime. A certain amount of crime is to be expected and their is little a government can do to eradicate crime completely. Crime is a result of individual actions and choices, war is not. War is an organized form of violence conducted on a large scale, and so is more effected by government actions targeting their leadership.

Lionel Deffries said,

The emperor dosnt have subjects the impirium rules the space between planets not the planets themselves.

By regulating trade, the Imperium affects the livelyhoods of those living on the planets and so indirectly governs them, it is a feudal form of government, but still a government. The Imperium basically governs those who govern.

Lionel Deffries said,

MY REPLY
This would depend on the governor who if he used force would have to explane why he was undermining the Imperium.

It also depends on the Emperor who rules the Imperium. Some emperors would indeed come down hard on a governor who used force to crush a protest, but others would reward the governor for crushing the rebels. The guy who sits on the Iridium throne makes a big difference.

Lionel Deffries said,

MY REPLY
You cant have an Empire without being Tyrannical.

There are good emperors and bad emperors. The good ones take their responsibility seriously and want what's best for their country. The bad ones want power, and seek to use it to elevate their position and to crush all opposition, that is the tyrant.

Lionel Deffries said,

MY REPLY
Why would the speed of communications make any difference (the second war of independance between England and America was still being waged 9 months after peace had been signed ( the battle of New Orleans)) so distance could be a problem not a help, if the Emperor is killed his policies will continue to be implemented until someone stops them.

The emperor must also trust his henchmen to do his bidding, he cannot anticipate every sitiuation his underlings may encounter so he has no choice but to rely on their judgement if he wants an Interstellar Empire.

 

[hunter]

I've deleted the troll posts and reopened this thread.

Sophiathegreen, you came damn close to just getting flat out banned. DO NOT HIJACK A THREAD LIKE THIS AGAIN. I will not warn you next time, you will simply be removed.

To everyone else who responded to those posts, PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. Your responses were removed simply because I felt it was best to remove all of those related to the trolling. Nothing personal folks.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic...


Hunter

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Elliot:
In reply to Saulweaver above - have you seen the pictures of the Royal Marine around Basra who received 4 shots to the head from an AK-47, none of which penetrated the Kevlar shell of the standard issue helmet. In the words of Monty Python he is one lucky b*****d but his luck was increased by the superior tech level of the coalition forces.

Actually that turned out to be a hoax. The reporter was dupped by the soldiers.

Hunter

 

[daryen]

Hunter,

Thank you.

 

[hunter]

Good job Sopiathegreen. Your posts are now moderated. I must approve them before the are made public.

I warned you to quit hijacking threads and here you started it up again.

Next step is you get banned. Care to push your luck?

Hunter

 

[Jame]

Hunter, did what I say about the next Iraqi government count as trolling?

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Jame:
Hunter, did what I say about the next Iraqi government count as trolling?

I think it was more "Troll Feed" than Troll...

Else you'd be warned by Mr. Hunter too...

 

[marginaleye]

I think the citizens of the Third Imperium would of necessity have a higher tolerance for pain, and warfare than would the citizens of the United States.

Yes, but I suspect this largely because the Imperium's armed forces are largely composed of long-service professionals, who generally began their military careers as volunteers. In the Imperium, military service is generally regarded as just a particularly dangerous skilled trade, entered voluntarily like any other. The idea of "citizen soldiers" serving out of a sense of patriotic responsibility, has been dead for centuries, killed off by over a thousand years of feudalism. The only people who feel that way are the nobles themselves, but their loyality is focused on specific people (their feudal overlords, and the Imperial family), not on the Imperium as a political entity.

The Third Imperium may have a decent Emperor who wants nothing but the best for his subjects, but it needs to be remembered that it is not a democracy. The Imperium citizenry have not constitutional power to change the government. The Emperor will listen to their complaints if he is in a good mood. If they start pulling some "Anti Vietnam War Flag burning" protests, the Emperor will most likely not be amused if he finds out about it. Disrespectful protesters will most likely be ignored if they are lucky. The Imperium despite being a nondemocracy has some rather progressive notions about interspecies relations. The Solomani Confederation is like a mirror image of the Imperium, it is a republic of sorts with regards to Solomani humans but other races are second class citizens if even that. Both nations have their flaws, its kind of like The Confederate States of America vs a cosmopolitain Roman Empire under one of the good Emperors. The Imperium is alot more progressive than the old Romans, but that could change with every new Emperor. Sooner or later the Imperium will have a bad Tyrannical Emperor. Fortunately the slow speed of communication will prevent him from exercising the sort of control he would like, but the core worlds would suffer.

 

[TKalbfus]

The analogy is not 100 percent. The Imperium can't be based solely on personal relationships. There has to be civil servants. The forms are fuedal, but it still has to be a modern government, there is mass media and so forth. People are for the most part literate and most people in the Imperium aren't Peasant tenant farmers working the land for a manor lord. For one thing they'd produce too much food to be eaten with modern technology agriculture.