CT Combat Redux

[Golan2072]

Following my rethinking of my house-rules logic, I've decided to seperate my Striker work (I'm involved with the development of Striker-III) from my CT work. I will continue to work on Striker and its designs, but I'm trying to design simpler, more LBB-style combat house-rules for CT.

What I need from such a system is:
1) Up to 3 die rolls per attack; 2 is preferrable.
2) PC-scale centric; should involve vehicles and small starships (i.e. the PCs' Scout/Courier and its Air/Raft or ATV chases ala Across the Bright Face, but not battles between tank platoons or between big ships), but the focus is on individuals/robots and very few vehicles (an ATV or Air/Raft or two).
3) Should use the UGM task system.
4) Should be played using 3 A4-sized pages during combat itself: the PC's chartacter sheet, a one-page combat summery sheet and the Referee's NPC/animal sheet.Sure, tables and lists (of weapons, armor, skills, attribute effects etc) would be consulted at chargen or when purchasing, but not during combat.
5) Should incorporate several damage types (i.e. flechettes/shoguns VS standard round VS fire) if possible. For example, a shotgun blast is far more devastating for an unarmored character than a solid slug, but is stopped very easily by armor.
6) Damage should be done using the CT-LBB1 system (i.e. damaging attributes).
7) Things such as hand grenades, molotov cocktails and flamethrowers should be integrated.
8) Nonlethal damage should be covered.
9) Covering/Supressive Fire should be included.

What I was thinking about was a modification on the CT-LBB1 system in which range does not serve as a DM (but has a UGM difficulty to hit); longarms have a negative DM in very short ranges; the part of the armor matrix relevant to the PC's weapon is copied to the char sheet and used as a DM; UGM is used to hit; Armor, in addition to giving a DM to hit, also absorbs dice of damage, i.e. a 2D melee weapon attacking a person in Jack (1D absorbtion) only does 1D damage.

 

[Golan2072]

Following my rethinking of my house-rules logic, I've decided to seperate my Striker work (I'm involved with the development of Striker-III) from my CT work. I will continue to work on Striker and its designs, but I'm trying to design simpler, more LBB-style combat house-rules for CT.

What I need from such a system is:
1) Up to 3 die rolls per attack; 2 is preferrable.
2) PC-scale centric; should involve vehicles and small starships (i.e. the PCs' Scout/Courier and its Air/Raft or ATV chases ala Across the Bright Face, but not battles between tank platoons or between big ships), but the focus is on individuals/robots and very few vehicles (an ATV or Air/Raft or two).
3) Should use the UGM task system.
4) Should be played using 3 A4-sized pages during combat itself: the PC's chartacter sheet, a one-page combat summery sheet and the Referee's NPC/animal sheet.Sure, tables and lists (of weapons, armor, skills, attribute effects etc) would be consulted at chargen or when purchasing, but not during combat.
5) Should incorporate several damage types (i.e. flechettes/shoguns VS standard round VS fire) if possible. For example, a shotgun blast is far more devastating for an unarmored character than a solid slug, but is stopped very easily by armor.
6) Damage should be done using the CT-LBB1 system (i.e. damaging attributes).
7) Things such as hand grenades, molotov cocktails and flamethrowers should be integrated.
8) Nonlethal damage should be covered.
9) Covering/Supressive Fire should be included.

What I was thinking about was a modification on the CT-LBB1 system in which range does not serve as a DM (but has a UGM difficulty to hit); longarms have a negative DM in very short ranges; the part of the armor matrix relevant to the PC's weapon is copied to the char sheet and used as a DM; UGM is used to hit; Armor, in addition to giving a DM to hit, also absorbs dice of damage, i.e. a 2D melee weapon attacking a person in Jack (1D absorbtion) only does 1D damage.

 

[mike wightman]

I find myself agreeing with your list

Armour as a to hit modifier and as damage reduction - it might just work

GURPS used to give armour a PD (passive defence) to modify the to hit roll, and DR (damage reduction) to reduce the damage done.

T20, and variant rules in a few d20 products, also has armour providing a penalty to be hit (AC bonus) and damage reduction.

Using range as a UGM task number isn't much different to applying it as a -DM - it's still the same penalty (or similar depending on the numbers you choose).

I prefer to drop the added complexity of the armour matrix and just go with damage reduction.

 

[mike wightman]

I find myself agreeing with your list

Armour as a to hit modifier and as damage reduction - it might just work

GURPS used to give armour a PD (passive defence) to modify the to hit roll, and DR (damage reduction) to reduce the damage done.

T20, and variant rules in a few d20 products, also has armour providing a penalty to be hit (AC bonus) and damage reduction.

Using range as a UGM task number isn't much different to applying it as a -DM - it's still the same penalty (or similar depending on the numbers you choose).

I prefer to drop the added complexity of the armour matrix and just go with damage reduction.

 

[Supplement Four]

Emp,

Thought of using what I'm doing?

I'm basically using LBB2 combat, but I've re-arraged the DM's a bit.

The to-hit roll is a UGM task roll of Standard difficulty (8+).


I basically use this 2D roll, trying to make 8+, and I add/subtract DMs on the to-hit roll and the damage roll.


=====================
Melee Combat
=====================

Possible Attack DMs on the to-hit throw:

+DM....Skill
-DM....Opponent's Skill

+/-DM..STR DM (from CT)
+DM....Natural Ability DM (from UGM)

-DM....Weak Blow
-DM....Defender's Block DM (from MT)

+/-DM..Range DM (from CT)
-2DM...Extra Action DM (House rule multiple action)


Attack roll:
2D +mods (above) for 8+


If 8+ is thrown, a hit is scored, and then we throw for damage--except that I modify damage as well.

Damage dice = that indicated for the weapon.


Possible Attack DMs on the to-hit throw:

-AV....Armor Value (from Striker)
+/-DM..Armor Adjustment (from CT)

+/-DM..STR DM (from CT)

-DM....Weak Blow (from CT)

-2DM...Extra Action (House multiple action rule)


--Example--

Terran (STR 4, Brawling-2) is fighting hand-to-hand with Dexter (STR E, Brawling-3).

Terran rolls 2D to hit.

2D...5, 6... = 11

+2 (Skill)
-3 (Defender's Skill)
-2 (STR DM)
-1 (Defender's Block DM)
+1 (Range)

Terran hits...on the money with a total of 8.

We roll damage. Hands is 1D.

1D...2

+1 (Armor Adjustment for no armor)
-2 (STR DM)

Terran did 1 point of damage to Dexter.

 

[Supplement Four]

Emp,

Thought of using what I'm doing?

I'm basically using LBB2 combat, but I've re-arraged the DM's a bit.

The to-hit roll is a UGM task roll of Standard difficulty (8+).


I basically use this 2D roll, trying to make 8+, and I add/subtract DMs on the to-hit roll and the damage roll.


=====================
Melee Combat
=====================

Possible Attack DMs on the to-hit throw:

+DM....Skill
-DM....Opponent's Skill

+/-DM..STR DM (from CT)
+DM....Natural Ability DM (from UGM)

-DM....Weak Blow
-DM....Defender's Block DM (from MT)

+/-DM..Range DM (from CT)
-2DM...Extra Action DM (House rule multiple action)


Attack roll:
2D +mods (above) for 8+


If 8+ is thrown, a hit is scored, and then we throw for damage--except that I modify damage as well.

Damage dice = that indicated for the weapon.


Possible Attack DMs on the to-hit throw:

-AV....Armor Value (from Striker)
+/-DM..Armor Adjustment (from CT)

+/-DM..STR DM (from CT)

-DM....Weak Blow (from CT)

-2DM...Extra Action (House multiple action rule)


--Example--

Terran (STR 4, Brawling-2) is fighting hand-to-hand with Dexter (STR E, Brawling-3).

Terran rolls 2D to hit.

2D...5, 6... = 11

+2 (Skill)
-3 (Defender's Skill)
-2 (STR DM)
-1 (Defender's Block DM)
+1 (Range)

Terran hits...on the money with a total of 8.

We roll damage. Hands is 1D.

1D...2

+1 (Armor Adjustment for no armor)
-2 (STR DM)

Terran did 1 point of damage to Dexter.

 

[Supplement Four]

Fire Combat is similar to what I've just laid out for Melee combat.


=================================

Attack DMs

+DM....Skill

+/-DM..DEX DM (from CT)
+1DM...Natural Ability (from UGM)

+/-DM..Range DM (from CT)
-2DM...Extra Action (House rule multiple action)
-2DM...Panic Fire (Book 4 tweak)


Damage DMs

-AV....Armor Value (from Striker)
+/-DM..Armor Adjustment (from CT)

 

[Supplement Four]

Fire Combat is similar to what I've just laid out for Melee combat.


=================================

Attack DMs

+DM....Skill

+/-DM..DEX DM (from CT)
+1DM...Natural Ability (from UGM)

+/-DM..Range DM (from CT)
-2DM...Extra Action (House rule multiple action)
-2DM...Panic Fire (Book 4 tweak)


Damage DMs

-AV....Armor Value (from Striker)
+/-DM..Armor Adjustment (from CT)

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
What I need from such a system is:....
5) Should incorporate several damage types (i.e. flechettes/shoguns VS standard round VS fire) if possible. For example, a shotgun blast is far more devastating for an unarmored character than a solid slug, but is stopped very easily by armor.
....

Suggestion, weapons have a penetration value, if it does not exceed an armor value the weapon does no damage. Provides possibilty for high damage-low penetration weapons. Doesn't require the damage reduction provided by armor do all the work. Also can allow low damage-high penetration weapons. Might help simulate how a small caliber bullets can get through plate armor better than a dagger, but a dagger can be just as deadly to an unarmored person as a small caliber bullet.

Armor providing damage reduction seems more intuitive to me. Potentially a shield can be treated as decreasing the chance to hit the person.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
What I need from such a system is:....
5) Should incorporate several damage types (i.e. flechettes/shoguns VS standard round VS fire) if possible. For example, a shotgun blast is far more devastating for an unarmored character than a solid slug, but is stopped very easily by armor.
....

Suggestion, weapons have a penetration value, if it does not exceed an armor value the weapon does no damage. Provides possibilty for high damage-low penetration weapons. Doesn't require the damage reduction provided by armor do all the work. Also can allow low damage-high penetration weapons. Might help simulate how a small caliber bullets can get through plate armor better than a dagger, but a dagger can be just as deadly to an unarmored person as a small caliber bullet.

Armor providing damage reduction seems more intuitive to me. Potentially a shield can be treated as decreasing the chance to hit the person.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
5) Should incorporate several damage types (i.e. flechettes/shoguns VS standard round VS fire) if possible. For example, a shotgun blast is far more devastating for an unarmored character than a solid slug, but is stopped very easily by armor.

My rules handle this fairly well in a simple method.

Shotguns do 4D damage, per CT. (slug might do different damage--although TA#1 says that damage is the same for slug--I don't have a CT reference for slug, I don't think, unless you count the TA#1).

Shotgun vs. Cloth is -3DM, per CT.

Shotgun vs. Nothing is +5DM, per CT.

Striker Cloth AV is 5.


So, using my rules, a shotgun being fired at a target using Cloth Armor would roll for damage....

4D -5 -3 (-5 for Striker AV, -3 for weapon armor adjustment).

Shotgun damage vs. Cloth = 4D -8


So, the shotgun will not penetrate the Cloth armor if 8- is thrown on the 4D damage roll. When the cloth is penetrated, damage will be 1-16 points.

Note that, some portion of the time, the shotgun will not penetrate the cloth armor (having to roll 9+ for damage on 4D).


But, the same shotgun vs. a character with no armor would throw damage...

4D +5 (+5 from CT armor adjustment)


Shotgun damage vs. no armor = 4D +5


Damage on that hit would be 6-29 points....could definitely be devestating.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
5) Should incorporate several damage types (i.e. flechettes/shoguns VS standard round VS fire) if possible. For example, a shotgun blast is far more devastating for an unarmored character than a solid slug, but is stopped very easily by armor.

My rules handle this fairly well in a simple method.

Shotguns do 4D damage, per CT. (slug might do different damage--although TA#1 says that damage is the same for slug--I don't have a CT reference for slug, I don't think, unless you count the TA#1).

Shotgun vs. Cloth is -3DM, per CT.

Shotgun vs. Nothing is +5DM, per CT.

Striker Cloth AV is 5.


So, using my rules, a shotgun being fired at a target using Cloth Armor would roll for damage....

4D -5 -3 (-5 for Striker AV, -3 for weapon armor adjustment).

Shotgun damage vs. Cloth = 4D -8


So, the shotgun will not penetrate the Cloth armor if 8- is thrown on the 4D damage roll. When the cloth is penetrated, damage will be 1-16 points.

Note that, some portion of the time, the shotgun will not penetrate the cloth armor (having to roll 9+ for damage on 4D).


But, the same shotgun vs. a character with no armor would throw damage...

4D +5 (+5 from CT armor adjustment)


Shotgun damage vs. no armor = 4D +5


Damage on that hit would be 6-29 points....could definitely be devestating.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Using range as a UGM task number isn't much different to applying it as a -DM - it's still the same penalty (or similar depending on the numbers you choose).

The thing here is to get rid of the different range DMs per weapon, and replace then with uniform difficulties, with different definitions of ranges greater than Medium per weapon. After all, Medium is defined in LBB1 as "pistol range", so all firearms should hit well in it, but what "long", "very long" and "extreme" would be different with different weapons. So, no need to look up range in typical shipboard oir urban close engagements, only in open terrain.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I prefer to drop the added complexity of the armour matrix and just go with damage reduction.

Hmmm... but won't this remove the entire aspect of penetration differeces between weapons? Or would you include a Shadowrun 4th Edition style "armor penetration", i.e. the amount of armor reduction the gun ignores? (assume an Assault rifle has Armor Penetration of 1D, does 3D damage and attacks a 2D-reduction armor; it will do 2D damage (3-2+1).

Originally posted by WJP:
Emp,

Thought of using what I'm doing?

I'll probably use parts of your system, with your permission ofcourse, and post it as the "UGM Light Combat system", with yours being the "UGM combat system".

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Using range as a UGM task number isn't much different to applying it as a -DM - it's still the same penalty (or similar depending on the numbers you choose).

The thing here is to get rid of the different range DMs per weapon, and replace then with uniform difficulties, with different definitions of ranges greater than Medium per weapon. After all, Medium is defined in LBB1 as "pistol range", so all firearms should hit well in it, but what "long", "very long" and "extreme" would be different with different weapons. So, no need to look up range in typical shipboard oir urban close engagements, only in open terrain.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I prefer to drop the added complexity of the armour matrix and just go with damage reduction.

Hmmm... but won't this remove the entire aspect of penetration differeces between weapons? Or would you include a Shadowrun 4th Edition style "armor penetration", i.e. the amount of armor reduction the gun ignores? (assume an Assault rifle has Armor Penetration of 1D, does 3D damage and attacks a 2D-reduction armor; it will do 2D damage (3-2+1).

Originally posted by WJP:
Emp,

Thought of using what I'm doing?

I'll probably use parts of your system, with your permission ofcourse, and post it as the "UGM Light Combat system", with yours being the "UGM combat system".

 

[Golan2072]

To hit I'll use a simplified Range Matrix, using UGM difficulties ala MT. When you get/but a weapon, just copy the relevant raw from the table into your char sheet; also remember than most CT confrontations take place in Medium or less range (in a bar-brawl, in a city or in a ship), so that'll be mostly 3 UGM-difficulties to get used to.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">WEAPON CLOSE SHORT MEDIUM LONG V.LONG EXTREME
Small Melee STNDRD STNDRD N/A N/A N/A N/A
Large Melee DIFFCLT ROUTINE N/A N/A N/A N/A
Pistol/SMG* STNDRD STNDRD DIFFCLT FRMDBL N/A N/A
Shotgun* CHLNGNG STNDRD ROUTINE FRMDBL N/A N/A
Carbine* CHLNGNG STNDRD STNDRD DIFCLT CHLNGNG N/A
Rifle* CHLNGNG STNDRD STNDRD STNDRD DIFCLT FRMDBL
Sniper* N/A FRMDBL ROUTINE ROUTIN STNDRD STNDRD
Lasers* CHLNGNG STNDRD STNDRD STNDRD STNDRD CHLNGNG
Machinegun@ N/A FRMDBL EASY ROUTIN STNDRD CHLNGNG
Heavy Wpn@ N/A N/A EASY EASY ROUTINE DIFCLT
PGMP-12 N/A N/A ROUTINE STNDRD STNDRD CHLNGNG
PGMP/FGMP N/A N/A EASY ROUTIN ROUTINE DIFFCLT
RAM-Gren.* N/A N/A ROUTINE ROUTIN CHLNGNG INSANE</pre>[/QUOTE]* The difficulties are for single-shot only; autofire reduces these difficulties by two levels (that is, give a +4 DM to hit).
@ Autofire is already factored in for Machineguns and Heavy Weapons.

Small Melee: Hands, Club, Dagger, Blade, Foil
Large Melee: Cutlass, Sword, Boardsword, Bayonet, Spear, Halberd, Pike, Cudgel
Pistol/SMG: Body Pistol, AutoPistol, Revolver, SMG, Snub Pistol
Carbine: Carbine, Assault Rifle, Accelerator Rifle
Rifle: Rifle, Autorifle (in single-shot mode only), LAG, ACR, Gauss Rifle
Sniper: To be added later
Lasers: Laser Carbine, Laser Rifle
Machinegun LMG
Heavy Weapons: AutoCannon, VRF Gauss
PGMP/FGMP: PGMP-13, PGMP-14, FGMP-14, FGMP-15.

 

[Golan2072]

To hit I'll use a simplified Range Matrix, using UGM difficulties ala MT. When you get/but a weapon, just copy the relevant raw from the table into your char sheet; also remember than most CT confrontations take place in Medium or less range (in a bar-brawl, in a city or in a ship), so that'll be mostly 3 UGM-difficulties to get used to.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">WEAPON CLOSE SHORT MEDIUM LONG V.LONG EXTREME
Small Melee STNDRD STNDRD N/A N/A N/A N/A
Large Melee DIFFCLT ROUTINE N/A N/A N/A N/A
Pistol/SMG* STNDRD STNDRD DIFFCLT FRMDBL N/A N/A
Shotgun* CHLNGNG STNDRD ROUTINE FRMDBL N/A N/A
Carbine* CHLNGNG STNDRD STNDRD DIFCLT CHLNGNG N/A
Rifle* CHLNGNG STNDRD STNDRD STNDRD DIFCLT FRMDBL
Sniper* N/A FRMDBL ROUTINE ROUTIN STNDRD STNDRD
Lasers* CHLNGNG STNDRD STNDRD STNDRD STNDRD CHLNGNG
Machinegun@ N/A FRMDBL EASY ROUTIN STNDRD CHLNGNG
Heavy Wpn@ N/A N/A EASY EASY ROUTINE DIFCLT
PGMP-12 N/A N/A ROUTINE STNDRD STNDRD CHLNGNG
PGMP/FGMP N/A N/A EASY ROUTIN ROUTINE DIFFCLT
RAM-Gren.* N/A N/A ROUTINE ROUTIN CHLNGNG INSANE</pre>[/QUOTE]* The difficulties are for single-shot only; autofire reduces these difficulties by two levels (that is, give a +4 DM to hit).
@ Autofire is already factored in for Machineguns and Heavy Weapons.

Small Melee: Hands, Club, Dagger, Blade, Foil
Large Melee: Cutlass, Sword, Boardsword, Bayonet, Spear, Halberd, Pike, Cudgel
Pistol/SMG: Body Pistol, AutoPistol, Revolver, SMG, Snub Pistol
Carbine: Carbine, Assault Rifle, Accelerator Rifle
Rifle: Rifle, Autorifle (in single-shot mode only), LAG, ACR, Gauss Rifle
Sniper: To be added later
Lasers: Laser Carbine, Laser Rifle
Machinegun LMG
Heavy Weapons: AutoCannon, VRF Gauss
PGMP/FGMP: PGMP-13, PGMP-14, FGMP-14, FGMP-15.

 

[mike wightman]

Nice.
I came up with something similar for the CT+combat thread a while ago.
Your table allows the task system of choice to be used

Just one question, why is the shotgun harder to hit with than a rifle at close range?

 

[mike wightman]

Nice.
I came up with something similar for the CT+combat thread a while ago.
Your table allows the task system of choice to be used

Just one question, why is the shotgun harder to hit with than a rifle at close range?

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Nice.
I came up with something similar for the CT+combat thread a while ago.
Your table allows the task system of choice to be used

Just one question, why is the shotgun harder to hit with than a rifle at close range?

It was based on the LBB1 range matrix; corrected now.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Nice.
I came up with something similar for the CT+combat thread a while ago.
Your table allows the task system of choice to be used

Just one question, why is the shotgun harder to hit with than a rifle at close range?

It was based on the LBB1 range matrix; corrected now.