Does Classic Traveller need an update?

[Blue Ghost]

Well, the only thing I can think of is to revamp the starship computer rules. As I've stated elsewhere, to me, it feels like mister Miller and his team premised starship computers on IBM mainframes, and did their best to project that technology forward. Data technology has progressed in ways unseen, and so if CT ever got a facelift, then updating that I think is a must.

Pretty much all I got.

 

[Timerover51]

Well, the only thing I can think of is to revamp the starship computer rules. As I've stated elsewhere, to me, it feels like mister Miller and his team premised starship computers on IBM mainframes, and did their best to project that technology forward. Data technology has progressed in ways unseen, and so if CT ever got a facelift, then updating that I think is a must.

Pretty much all I got.

I would definitely agree with that. I have house ruled some changes in both size, capability, and pricing in that area.

 

[mike wightman]

I think that CT computers, considering what they do, are actually probably a bit on the small side.
A model 1 ship computer has to be able to:
run a fusion power plant
run the environmental systems
run the avionics
solve a multidimensional n body problem in only a few minutes.

It takes more than a couple of networked desktop PCs to handle that lot.

The server in my school that handles the network fills a small room.

 

[creativehum]

I think that CT computers, considering what they do, are actually probably a bit on the small side.
A model 1 ship computer has to be able to:
run a fusion power plant
run the environmental systems
run the avionics
solve a multidimensional n body problem in only a few minutes.

It takes more than a couple of networked desktop PCs to handle that lot.

The server in my school that handles the network fills a small room.

Plus.... I always add in the volume for all the shielding and armor. And, of course, redundancy systems. Because if your computer gets damage in orbit around a TL 6 world with an E starport where exactly are you going to get spare part parts?

Looking at the rules found in Book two (Combat Rules, Encounter Rules, Misjumps, travel times, and in 1977 Space Lanes) we are looking at implied setting where ships are out on there own, often days if not weeks or months away from other ships, where hostile actions can take place with alarming regularity (by today's standards), and ships might have missiles launched at them and lasers fired at them.

I'm constantly amazed by how many people seem to be willing to jump to other system with nothing more than a laptop or whatever it is that they would use to be in a tin can literally dependent on their computer system to keep them alive and get them home.

The only thing that might seem out of place is the need two switch out computer programs in combat. But as a fun little miniatures space battle game it seems kind of smart... So I let that go.

I wrote about this matter a year ago on my blog. I suspect it is one of those things that will come up again and again forever.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, your lap top can run navigation, regulate your car's engine, control your heater and air conditioner if you have your house set up with one of those software packages. An old 386 or 286 could handle two or three of those operations smoothly, depending on how the software is coded. The problem comes when your hardware is running more than one software package. But software designed to maintain houses or keep tabs on your car has hardware dedication.

On a starship, my guess is that there's probably software that manages piloting and navigation, which is apart from the software that manages life support, lights, water and other miscellany. Then the final software package is probably one that manages the powerplant. So, three PCs or three Laptops, maybe with one or two others as backups.

The most processing power you'll need is probably for plotting jumps and navigating interplanetary travel. So, I would debate the starship computer rules.

 

[creativehum]

You know, we even haven't gotten to the part where we're needing to keep running models on all celestial bodies across countless systems to make sure we don't have an accident and end up weeks or months demo a starport when we arrive in system.

And of course a focus on computer size skips past all the practical matters in my post. Most cars might have computers, but they aren't facing the concrete threat of combat if they leave the garage. And if something breaks down, not only is the car's driver not cut off from easy communication, but the nearest repair facility is not weeks, if months away. But that is the situation found in the rules of Classic Traveller.

If cars had to be built to handle the threats and situations found in Classic Traveller they wouldn't (and the computers wouldn't) look very much like what cars and their computers look like today.

 

[Condottiere]

Your iPhone can run a spaceship.

And if an IBM mainframe can calculate a monojump, that probably as well.

 

[Timerover51]

Plus.... I always add in the volume for all the shielding and armor. And, of course, redundancy systems. Because if your computer gets damage in orbit around a TL 6 world with an E starport where exactly are you going to get spare part parts?

Looking at the rules found in Book two (Combat Rules, Encounter Rules, Misjumps, travel times, and in 1977 Space Lanes) we are looking at implied setting where ships are out on there own, often days if not weeks or months away from other ships, where hostile actions can take place with alarming regularity (by today's standards), and ships might have missiles launched at them and lasers fired at them.

I'm constantly amazed by how many people seem to be willing to jump to other system with nothing more than a laptop or whatever it is that they would use to be in a tin can literally dependent on their computer system to keep them alive and get them home.

The only thing that might seem out of place is the need two switch out computer programs in combat. But as a fun little miniatures space battle game it seems kind of smart... So I let that go.

I wrote about this matter a year ago on my blog. I suspect it is one of those things that will come up again and again forever.

What it took a Cray Supercomputer to do in 1981 your average laptop can do faster. There is no real comparison to what a computer in 1981 could do and what your average laptop can do now. The first computer that I worked on was an IBM 1401 back in 1968. It took up a room about 25 feet by 20 feet and worked off of the 80-column punch cards. No keyboard terminal input. My phone has more capability than that machine. The same goes for storage space, but even more so. If I want to, I can buy a flash drive that has 128 Gigabytes of storage space. I have a Terabyte hard drive that is portable. That sort of equipment was not even conceivable in 1981. Toy Story One required a Terabyte of storage space costing $2 million dollars. Today, I can buy that for under $100, and walk around with it in my pocket.

As for redundancy, I figure that you have a navigation computer plus back-up, an engine room computer plus back up, and a life support computer plus back up, and all of them are capable of doing the jobs of the other dedicated computers. None of them take up a whole lot of space.

The takeaway is that I not only can remember what the computers of around 1980 were like, I worked on them. There simply is no comparison possible.

 

[creativehum]

Look, if people want to travel out into the depths of space weeks away from spare parts with something that can slip out of your pocket and break with a bad fall, that's your business. Add in laser fire and missiles, and really, I'm happy to add in all the extra volume for protection.

For the record, I'm not even focused on the processing power issues. I know computers have improved. Like, really.

I'm talking about what the actual rules of the actual game imply in terms of danger, distances, and supply lines. It's like nothing at all like 20th century circumstances. It's unlike most situations most of us take the time to imagine.

The danger, risk, isolation, and trouble of space travel found in Books 1-3 are something I'm beginning to think a lot of people don't appreciate.

Not that anyone has to. It's perfectly reasonable to hand wave that stuff away if it's not the kind of game/setting you want. But it is part of what has always made Traveller so compelling to me.

 

[bjjones37]

Four Units. Two configured for load balancing and providing redundancy. The other two in rack preconfigured but physically disconnected from power and data in the event of a surge from combat damage. Also of the four, one pair (one active and one inactive) in one compartment and the other pair in a different compartment on the opposite side of the ship. A remote triggering mechanism to allow you to remotely institute a swap between the good and bad computer, actually performing a sliding connect hot swap between the good and bad system. Ensures at least one system is up at all times and two most of the time. If the trigger system fails, well there is always manual.

 

[Blue Ghost]

But you're assuming that the complexities of going from point A to point B in interstellar space are somehow inordinately more difficult for your average PC than programming your drone or car to go to the store. And that somehow the number of objects and distances taxes your PC or laptop. It really wouldn't.

The basic data you need is essentially the position and vector of movement for your destination, because stars move just like planets, moons and asteroids. I think it's your thinking that every Traveller starship somehow keeps a constant model of the entire galaxy running resident in the system RAM. Eh, I don't think so, and even if it did you or your navigation software would only need to access your current position and your destination. You don't run into asteroids while travelling in jumpspace.

I guess there's a danger of exiting and banging into an asteroid, which would ruin your whole day, but that's quite literally astronomical. I think more likely your ship would know the last known position of the planets for the destination system, and then project their orbits to come to a safe exit position.

You don't need to know the position of every dust particle or rock out there, just the big ones to ensure a degree of safety.

As for attack, every game since Atari and Coleco has a basic fire control program. Automating that is a different story, but it's just more lines of code as per a CIWS program, and not really a hardware issue.

 

[mike wightman]

Your iPhone can run a spaceship.

Ring up the nearest atomic power station and tell them you can replace all their computers with an i-phone...
an i-phone can't even ring the power station without the mast and the massive bank of servers that actually controls the network.
Don't confuse the interface devices with the machinery that is actually doing the work.

And if an IBM mainframe can calculate a monojump, that probably as well.

A supercomputer by today's standards could probably do it.

Why do we build supercomputers if our i-phones and desktops can manage all of this?

 

[Condottiere]

Because Computer Model One weighs a tonne, and surprisingly listed at technological level five.

I suspect the power plant has it's own control unit.

I'll assume that the iPhone is technological level eight, though even at seven that would be two levels difference.

 

[rhialto]

Well, do we have any rocket scientists here? What do the probes which we launch now have for on-board computers? Seems like that would be a better starting point than the one most of us happen to carry around in our pockets.

In any case, I find CT's tech to be fine, as it's part of the conceit of the setting, not meant as predictive technical psychohistory.

 

[infojunky]

Well, do we have any rocket scientists here?

Something like a PowerPC or 486 chipset, last I checked. Note these chips are heavily re-engineered from the consumer ones to resist Vibration and Radiation.

Note I am Scientist but not a rocket scientist but I extensively use data sourced from satellite based sensors. As such it helps to have a idea of what sort of data can be provided by said instruments.

With that when it comes to CT's computers and their "software" the range of abilities portrayed includes a lot of hardware that one would not normally associate strictly with a computer. As such I have changed "Computer" to Electronics. As well as using the simple computer rules from Mayday and High Guard.

 

[whulorigan]

Someone else on this board has previously (I think it was S4) noted that his personal interpretation for CT is that the "Computer" volume listed in fact includes ALL of the ships electronics (Astrionics/Avionics, Sensors, etc., as well as the computer and its interlinking systems, dedicated processors, and network), which includes all of the physical hardware necessary to make those components function, including sensor mounts and detection systems/antennae (since CT shipbuilding did not actually have specific rules for installation of sensors, et al - they were just assumed to be there).

EDIT: I see infojunky has already touched upon the idea while I was typing.

 

[Condottiere]

I would suspect that default sensors and electronics are integrated with bridge tonnage.

 

[bjjones37]

That is Great!

 

[rhialto]

Something like a PowerPC or 486 chipset, last I checked. Note these chips are heavily re-engineered from the consumer ones to resist Vibration and Radiation.

With that when it comes to CT's computers and their "software" the range of abilities portrayed includes a lot of hardware that one would not normally associate strictly with a computer. As such I have changed "Computer" to Electronics. As well as using the simple computer rules from Mayday and High Guard.

This seems reasonable, since CT (LBB2 anyway) doesn't have separate subsystems for all the HW required to run all the SW: in LBB2 "computer" is defined as subsuming CPU and storage, and networking would probably be a reasonable extension, since it has to also communicate with and control all subsystems (navigation, maneuver, life support, weapons, etc.) on the ship.

 

[rhialto]

Nice pic, Condottiere.