Does Classic Traveller need an update?

[aramis]

What it took a Cray Supercomputer to do in 1981 your average laptop can do faster.

With one, very notable exception: supporting multiple simultaneous logins.

Modern laptops lack the data throughput capabilities.

Note: The Cray 1 was a 1-5 user machine, with 2 MB of CPU Ram and 160 MFLOPS.

A 1980's era wang mainframe supported upwards of 20 simultaneous users, with far lower processing speed, but tacking on 50 VDTs does up the tonnage somewhat.

 

[creativehum]

But you're assuming that the complexities of going from point A to point B in interstellar space are somehow inordinately more difficult...

I am, actually.

We're dealing with a technology called "The Jump Drive" in Classic Traveller.

I know very few things about it, as the technolgy is never defined in Book 2. But looking at the rules found in Book 2 I know the following things:

1. It breaks the laws of know physics to allow faster than light travel
2. It cannot be used within 100 diameters of celestial bodies
3. The entire apparatus of powering up and activating a jump drive are so sensitive to contaminants in the fuel that unprocessed fuel runs a terrible risk of mechanical failure or uncontrolled
4. The processing power required for greater and greater jumps through space requires larger and larger machines to calculate the jumps -- the increase in processing the jumps is actually exponential as the distances increase
5. These calculations become so complicated that jumps of greater than six parsecs cannot be attempted

That's what I know.

How a Referee wants to build out the "logic" of the Jump Drive from those points is up to him. (Folding space? Folding time? Actually zipping at a speed faster than light? Whatever!)

A referee, of course, can hand wave away any of the above points. But going with the rules as established, those are the defining qualities of using a jump drive. And when I look at them I see something more complicated than simply going from A to B.

 

[Blue Ghost]

With one, very notable exception: supporting multiple simultaneous logins.

Modern laptops lack the data throughput capabilities.

Note: The Cray 1 was a 1-5 user machine, with 2 MB of CPU Ram and 160 MFLOPS.

A 1980's era wang mainframe supported upwards of 20 simultaneous users, with far lower processing speed, but tacking on 50 VDTs does up the tonnage somewhat.

What data is being conveyed to the ships? Do you mean from the jump drive?

 

[Blue Ghost]

I am, actually.

We're dealing with a technology called "The Jump Drive" in Classic Traveller.

I know very few things about it, as the technolgy is never defined in Book 2. But looking at the rules found in Book 2 I know the following things:

1. It breaks the laws of know physics to allow faster than light travel
2. It cannot be used within 100 diameters of celestial bodies
3. The entire apparatus of powering up and activating a jump drive are so sensitive to contaminants in the fuel that unprocessed fuel runs a terrible risk of mechanical failure or uncontrolled
4. The processing power required for greater and greater jumps through space requires larger and larger machines to calculate the jumps -- the increase in processing the jumps is actually exponential as the distances increase
5. These calculations become so complicated that jumps of greater than six parsecs cannot be attempted

That's what I know.

How a Referee wants to build out the "logic" of the Jump Drive from those points is up to him. (Folding space? Folding time? Actually zipping at a speed faster than light? Whatever!)

A referee, of course, can hand wave away any of the above points. But going with the rules as established, those are the defining qualities of using a jump drive. And when I look at them I see something more complicated than simply going from A to B.

Well okay, if it's the jumdrive that's eating up processing time, then starting at TL11 or 12 or whenever the drive is introduced, how come the basic mainframe doesn't shrink to smaller sizes with each progressive tech level? Or is that just the way it is?

I guess what I'm hearing is that the jump drive requires that Cray Supercomputer like thing. If that's the case, then I case this sub-thread is kind of over with.

 

[aramis]

What data is being conveyed to the ships? Do you mean from the jump drive?

No. In modern laptops, the data throughput is usually unable to sustain more than two terminals, unless running Linux or Unix. Certainly not more than two simultaneous users with anything close to single-user performance.

Mainframes in the late 70's rapidly evolved into multi-user low-priority use devices.

1970's computers were mostly mainframes. Usually card fed. Time sharing was by insertion of a stop card, a new start card, and then the next stack of cards....

Mid 70's, some OS's were multi-user.
Time slicing became common, and converted teletype dumb-terminals were the standard.

Late 70's, major office computing was "Smart" terminals (VT 100, VT 102), connected to a mainframe. The Mainframe would usually be timesharing one or more processors for interface, and some would then send specific non-interactive programs to other processors just like virtual card stacks; others would be time-slicing to run on shared processors.

Even into the early 90's, thin-client smart terminals were being pushed for the workplace, with server farms in secure rooms, and some software served-on-launch to the thin client to run locally on central-stored target files, while serious data crunching was run on a server with an interface running in the thin client.

Now, again, the move is on to use client-server... but now it's the media and advertisers who want it.

Until recently, tho', most users refused to use client-server software outside the workplace...

 

[whartung]

CT computer discussions are really boring.

Computers in CT are a bike shed discussion. Since we all have used modern computers, we think that computers and computing, notably for interstellar starship travel and operation, are in any way related to what we do today.

We hand wave the operations, dimensions, requirements, etc. of a star spanning, light busting Jump drive, but as soon as it needs a 10 ton "computer" for processing, it's all "Now hold on Tex..." as if we have any idea of what's actually involved.

All of a sudden, it's Name That Tune. "I can Jump to Rhylanor with 2 cores, Alex!"

 

[vegas]

we think that computers and computing, notably for interstellar starship travel and operation, are in any way related to what we do today.

Yes, but...

book 3 tells us that Model 1 computers are TL5 and Model 2s are TL7. Those are TLs that we have already passed, so the game authors have made the connection to real world computers, not just the players.

If a model 1 was a TL9 item, then it would be easier to argue "we have no idea what is involved in the computations" but by saying jump-1 can be handled by pre-1940 tech and jump-2 by pre-1980, then the game tech has been anchored in something we do know and that is why it gets the negative reaction it does and begs a longer explanation.

 

[Condottiere]

Preprogrammed astronavigation tape.

Mongoose made the computer virtual.

 

[vegas]

As in VM/CMS? Ooops, I’m showing my age.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yes, but...

book 3 tells us that Model 1 computers are TL5 and Model 2s are TL7. Those are TLs that we have already passed, so the game authors have made the connection to real world computers, not just the players.

If a model 1 was a TL9 item, then it would be easier to argue "we have no idea what is involved in the computations" but by saying jump-1 can be handled by pre-1940 tech and jump-2 by pre-1980, then the game tech has been anchored in something we do know and that is why it gets the negative reaction it does and begs a longer explanation.

That was kind of my thought, but to flavor-fiction it, I'm guessing the parameters of jump are such that something akin to quantum mainframe computing is needed. Oh well. The rules say so, so there you go.

I mean I shrug my shoulders at it. Whatever. I've enjoyed Traveller in all the iterations of it I've sampled, but have a warm place in my heart for it like I do classic Star Trek.

I mean, the only other real thing that I can think of is to hire Dietrick full time to do art for a new edition of CT. That would rock.

Seriously, I like CT chargen, I like CT combat, I wish that task rule that was published in a JTAS had been included in the BBB, and maybe some more adventures that required players and ref use the interplanetary travel rules.

 

[Blue Ghost]

p.s. I used to have the Beatles on programmed astrogation tapes. I used to DL their data on my friends "8-holographic astrogation track" TL5 computer in his ground car.

 

[mike wightman]

Seriously, I like CT chargen, I like CT combat, I wish that task rule that was published in a JTAS had been included in the BBB, and maybe some more adventures that required players and ref use the interplanetary travel rules.

Which CT character gen, basic or extended?
Which combat system, LBB1/Snapshot/AHL/Striker
There was no task system published in JTAS which is why it couldn't be included. The task system was invented by DGP and appeared in their Digest magazine and supplements.

I agree with the adventures idea, very few involved space travel beyond jumping to the next adventure.

I have run a Death Station adventure where the trip to the station ended up taking three sessions - the PCs were hired to crew a ship that had to make two jumps to arrive at the system where the lab ship was last reported, they then had to find it and maneuver insystem before the adventure as written could start (I always use the Death Station adventure with tweaks to introduce a new group or test a new set of sci-fi rules).

 

[Blue Ghost]

CT chargen; basic or extended. They're basic and understandable.

Combat systems; I lean towards Snapshot with action points because it skews towards a combat sim, as opposed to basic Trav combat, which I think has issues with range bands. Various gaming groups have been divided. A lot prefer basic combat because they don't want to do all the book keeping. Those tend to be more RP oriented types. Wargammers like the book keeping; ammo track, stat damage, DMs for range, cover and terrain, and so forth.

Task System; I've been told in the last two years (12 months maybe) that there was a task system for CT, but that it was included in a follow up JTAS as an addendum. Because like you, I and my groups complained and worked around it.

I understand the direction of the adventures now, and I understand scifi in popular media now better than I ever have before. The concept of better life, better society, and better tackling of not just everyday life, but tackling troublemakers, is the emphasis of the classic adventures. I didn't get that before, but do now. I think The Argon Gambit is probably the most obvious one.

So....to do what I want to do, verse waiting for this system to shape itself up, I'll be taking the third path / way to see a more traditional John Carter of Mars approach.

 

[mike wightman]

There was no task system for Traveller in JTAS or any other GDW published CT source. The task system was an invention of DGP and appeared in their work. When DGP got the job of revising CT corpus to make MT the task system was a shoe in, but note that GDW 'borrowed' its mechanics to make the task system for T2300.

The guide to using dice throws in CT is scattered across LBB:1, A:1 and best of all The Traveller Adventure. It is now my preferred way to run the game.

The problem with CT character generation was the skill inflation of the advanced careers. MT solved this in a way with the special duty roll and the rule of 4, but the easier way to resolve it is limit extended generation skill acquisition.

If you combine elements of the Snapshot and AHL combat systems you can see where the MT combat system came from.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I'm not going to argue it. It was mentioned here on this bulletin board system, but I'm too lazy to search for the thread.

to be honest it was a shocker to me because I had never heard of it. Oh well.

 

[creativehum]

CT computer discussions are really boring.

Computers in CT are a bike shed discussion. Since we all have used modern computers, we think that computers and computing, notably for interstellar starship travel and operation, are in any way related to what we do today.

We hand wave the operations, dimensions, requirements, etc. of a star spanning, light busting Jump drive, but as soon as it needs a 10 ton "computer" for processing, it's all "Now hold on Tex..." as if we have any idea of what's actually involved.

All of a sudden, it's Name That Tune. "I can Jump to Rhylanor with 2 cores, Alex!"

Thanks for phrasing what I could not figure out how to phrase.

So, for me, what whartung said.


As for the Task Resolution system in JTAS:

I would really love it if anyone could point me toward it. If it's there I'd really love to see it.

I know I've posted several times in the past year about The Traveller's Digest Issue #1 (published by Digest Group Publicacstions) which introduced an optional unified task system for Traveller (in 1985!). That is the first mention of it I've found and I've never found anything like it in JTAS. (I'm not arguing, by the way. I'm providing facts.)

This system is later introduced by DGP into MegaTraveller.

 

[mike wightman]

There is no task system in JTAS, it is introduced via Challenge magazine issue 29, which is the same issue the universe shifted to MegaTraveller.

We are convinced that this system is a major improvement for Traveller, and it is being integrated into the new MegaTraveller scheduled for later this year. Here is an advanced look at a key part of the next edition of Traveller.

To my mind this is the earliest introduction of MegaTraveller, not the inclusion of the task system in CT. By this stage the folks at DGP have been tasked with the consolidation and re-write that would become MegaTraveller - the issue was early 87.

 

[aramis]

DGP put the task system in their CT issues of Traveller's Digest and their CT products, Grand Census and Grand Survey, from 1985 on.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Loose tangent (I should be writing), but this could be the TL8 equivalent of a starship computer, and ergo the reason computers, starship computers, in Traveller take up so much space;

https://youtu.be/60OkanvToFI

 

[aramis]

Loose tangent (I should be writing), but this could be the TL8 equivalent of a starship computer, and ergo the reason computers, starship computers, in Traveller take up so much space;

https://youtu.be/60OkanvToFI

Unlikely, as the tech needed for the quantum processor requires tolerances that are not evidenced at TL5 (which is the lowest at which a Traveller ship's computer can be built.)