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How do jump drives really work?

In that case, non JD fuel wouldn't be carried as LHyd but probably as H2O...
Don't think you're the first to notice that possibility. The usual answer is that the power used for the jump drive has to be generated in so short a time that there's no time to separate out the hydrogen from the water (sadly; if you did, you could use the O2 for coolant ;)).

(As it is, no one has been able to come up with a reason why you can't carry along a second load of fuel in the form of water. Most of us assume that it's actually done that way, only very little has been said in detail about tankers and deep space fuel depots, and very few ships actually carry along a second load, so in most cases its moot).

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read your post properly. Yes, you're absolutely right. Huge logic flaw there. And I think you may very well be the first one to point it out. At least, I can't recall running into it before.


Hans
 
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Don't think you're the first to notice that possibility. The usual answer is that the power used for the jump drive has to be generated in so short a time that there's no time to separate out the hydrogen from the water (sadly; if you did, you could use the O2 for coolant ;)).

(As it is, no one has been able to come up with a reason why you can't carry along a second load of fuel in the form of water. Most of us assume that it's actually done that way, only very little has been said in detail about tankers and deep space fuel depots, and very few ships actually carry along a second load, so in most cases its moot).


Hans

Correct. I was alluding to PP fuel and/or fuel for a 2nd jump as the rules point to a extremely fast consumption rate for a jump (outstripping the speed of the fuel purif equipment). Actually, the fuel tankage volume (PP fuel or 2nd jump) isn't specs for H2O. So, it isn't actually done that way. It could be but currently isn't per the desgn rules.
 
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Actually, the fuel tankage volume (PP fuel or 2nd jump) isn't specs for H2O. So, it isn't actually done that way. It could be but currently isn't per the desgn rules.
See, there's where I think there's a difference between game rules and the "reality" of the background universe. Do the people in the OTU really not carry along the hydrogen they need for power plant use in the form of water? Or is it just that the very simplified rules got it a bit wrong? And do the power plants really gulp down tons of hydrogen per week in order to provide life support, maneuver, and energy weapons, and if they do, do they really use the same amount of hydrogen regardless of whether they're cosily ensconced in jumpspace or moving at full speed with guns blazing 24/7? Or are the rules just a tiny bit simplified and not totally realistic here and there?


Hans
 
No, they don't. The volume of the storage (in the rules) makes that crystal clear.
(What volume is that? The volume in the MT, TNE, and T4 rules are radically different from the volumes in HG, T20, and MGT (and both differ from those of Book 2).)

Let me rephrase the question, then. Does it make sense to you that they don't carry along the hydrogen for their power plants in the form of water? Can you come up with an explanation, not invoking alternate physical laws[*], that makes sense?

[*] Can you come up with a self-consistent alternate physical law that would explain it, for that matter?​


Hans
 
I'm not sure I am in agreement with the numbers for carnot eff.
While the numbers are good ( although I'd put the Low temp res at ~14K as temp of liquid h2 ), I'm not sure that they reflect the efficiency related to converting the heat from the fusion process to useful power for other equipment.
For that, I'd think the low reservoir would be the temps of the radiators (~1000K? cherry red steel ) and the high temp reservoir at ~2500K ( temp should probably be lower than melting point of conversion machinery's materials ). This would probably end up being analogous to steam turbines or other heat engine. ~1-(1000/2500)= ~60%

Another more efficient method under study is direct conversion of kinetic energy of particles to electric potential. The following suggest ~90% may be possible.
http://www.visionofearth.org/industry/fusion/how-do-we-turn-nuclear-fusion-energy-into-electricity/

but even these numbers depend on the ability to capture the heat or particles in a useful fashion.
which may be less than ideal. Perhaps this is the stage where my experimental tech progression would fit;
introduced at T9, therefore at T9, the first tech level its available; efficiency would be 1/(1+1) times 90%...the tech 9 power plant would be 45% efficient at converting the energy of fusing hydrogen to useful energy. T15 is the 7th tech level that fusion power plants are available, therefore 7/(7+1) times 90% = 79% efficient.

The fusion reaction by itself is 99.999% by carnot eff., so call that 100%
From that, we should be able to gauge just how much h2 is actually fused as fuel... the rest is non-fuel or coolant. I suspect that radiators and coolant together as envisioned by trav won't be enough, but I need to work out the numbers.

naturally, the waste heat also increases a ship's signature to sensors.

One mitigating factor is the jump drive's operating temp, the core would be anywhere from 5 to 15 million kelvin. Those temps would instantly vaporize any material I know of, so there has to be a pinch field or magnetic bottle for containment. It still looks like whatever one is using, it wouldn't be enough to dissipate the heat. How much water to dissipate the heat from a tactical nuke? We are back at 100,000 gallon tanks of water again which would bump the size of starships up on an order of magnitude. I'll agree that the carnot equation is not so perfect.

One thing to think about how the power plants work is if they have a duty cycle or are on/off at full output. The jump drive seems to be always run at full output.

This path lies to madness, someone said, that is for sure, I feel like an ancient roman engineer trying to figure out a raptor with the only knowledge being that "it works".
 
At this point it is looking like Canon does not work by current standards and we have to resort to Handwavium.

What I have learned so far is H2 can be used as fuel but in small amounts.

H2 can be used for cooling but other things work better.

Caps are needed for the jump process but we never figured out if that was all that was needed.

All the H2 is used in the process so jump tanks are no problem.

Canon is screwed up because the writers of old did not compare notes and have a grand design to all work off of.

We can argue the fine points for years....:D

Jump drives, fusion power plants, reactionless drives, grav plates, laser rifles, fgmp's, etc., etc,. all handwavium.

Though hydrogen for cooling is as good as anything else given the heat, plus hydrogen has a big plus: it 's free.
 
In that case, non JD fuel wouldn't be carried as LHyd but probably as H2O...

Depends on how you are talking fuel, if fusion, then the hydrogen continues into deuterium and the process becomes automatic. Water has a huge mass however and is not so common of a compound, that would radically increase the price of fuel..
 
(What volume is that? The volume in the MT, TNE, and T4 rules are radically different from the volumes in HG, T20, and MGT (and both differ from those of Book 2).) Hans

Pick ANY version. It is xTons of L-hyd volume for the PP and/or J-Drive. CRYSTAL clear.
 
Pick ANY version. It is xTons of L-hyd volume for the PP and/or J-Drive. CRYSTAL clear.
The rule is clear, yes. That wasn't what my comment was about.

In any case, it was a digression. Forget it and let's get back to the main argument:

Let me rephrase the question, then. Does it make sense to you that they don't carry along the hydrogen for their power plants in the form of water? Can you come up with an explanation, not invoking alternate physical laws[*], that makes sense?

[*] Can you come up with a self-consistent alternate physical law that would explain it, for that matter?​


Hans
 
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I'm talking standard Trav star ship PPs...

It would be redundant to make water then break it back down for hydrogen to be used as fuel. Water storage would have it's own problems, such as become a vector for bacteria...

LH2 seems much more sanitary.
 
....We are back at 100,000 gallon tanks of water again which would bump the size of starships up on an order of magnitude. I'll agree that the carnot equation is not so perfect.

One thing to think about how the power plants work is if they have a duty cycle or are on/off at full output. The jump drive seems to be always run at full output.

I found a reference to the use of steam turbines generating power from the heat created by fusion and fission reactors in FFS1 as the normal way of things.
So that'd mean pp efficiencies of only about 60% anyways....

cooling will be a big problem.
 
I found a reference to the use of steam turbines generating power from the heat created by fusion and fission reactors in FFS1 as the normal way of things.
So that'd mean pp efficiencies of only about 60% anyways....

cooling will be a big problem.

After crunching the numbers, I see only two conclusions, either anything will work for cooling and canon is fine or nothing will work and back to the drawing board. Though this is the part I guess where we say: "It's the future..." :D

I'd be suprised if the fusion reactors were using mechanical work to get electricity, I would think there is some super photo voltaic system converting photons or heat directly into electricity. A steam turbine implies water tankage, generators and much more complexity and size of the engineering compartment.
 
And once again, but no


No, it's an anomaly featured in one very early adventure that does not fit with the vast majority of other canon. Accepting it would require invalidating some much more important parts of canon for practically no gain. So it's not worth accepting.
Which bit of canon exactly?

TNE's tech paradigm revision for the OTU, different values for jump engine size, different values for jump fuel required, different rules on how much fuel is used per jump?

It's all a big mess and the Annic Nova's solar collector is the least of the problems.


One time. He mentioned it once. Presumably without considering the logical ramifications. AFAIK, neither he, nor any of the people he has authorized over the years to write official Traveller material has ever mentioned it again.
It's mentioned explicitely in his definitive jump drive article and has been mentioned in other sources too.

And even if Marc Miller said it once a day and twice on sundays, it would still not be compatible with the rest of canon.
I would accept this if other canon were consistent - but it isn't.


How canon evolved is irrelevant. The important thing is that it did evolve and what it evolved into.
TNE tech paradigm?
T4?
T5?
MgT?


Not a solution, because Book 2 ship construction is incompatible with the established background information for the OTU (most egregious example: dates for when jump-2, -3, -4, -5, and -6 was discovered).
DGP invented the jump drive dates to tie in with the HG re-write of the jump drive paradigm.

The fact remains that every CT adventure and supplement that used the LBB2 design sequence outnumber the HG derived ones.

And even HG states that the LBB2 drives can be used instead.


Because it would give a significant increase in volume available for other purposes, upping its earning potential considerably.
Not if I wrote the design sequence for them it wouldn't - that 's why the standard is the hydrogen based engine.


Always try to justify things using real world physics, because while the OTU is indeed imaginary, the imaging includes being very much like the real world except in a few select instances. Of which jump physics is one but the physical properties of the elements and other substances isn't.
Rubbish - very little Traveller tech stands up to real world physics and chemistry. Trying to invoke it one one hand while ignoring it on the other just makes hypocrites of us.


I'll accept that it has to be done slowly as it doesn't contradict anything else we know. The upper limit on the limit on a jump-1 drive is one week divided by five, since the Annic Nova can recharge enough to do a jump-2 and a jump-3 in one week. So, the Annic Nova jump drive (or rather, the capacitors that activate it) has to be charged over 34 hours.
It takes 1-6 weeks to recharge the equivalent of jump 5 - the average is 3.

So it's 21 days divided by 5 on average to charge for jump 1, that's 4 days per jump 1 in average circumstances.

Oh, the capacitors has to be charged a full week and the fact that the AN's solar sail can gather enough to power a J2 and a J3 jump in a week merely means that the solar sails and the capacitor banks are five times as large as necessary for a jump-1 ship?
Yes, a jump 1 solar collector based ship would have 1/5 of the accumulators, but I would have a minimum size for the solar collector machinery built into the design sequence - meta game balancing.

Very well. So you empty the capacitors and enter jumpspace. You now have a week to recharge the capacitors while you're in jump...

Oh, for some reason the recharging won't work in jumpspace?
Of course it won't, the jump engines are set performing the jump you have initiated, you don't go feeding anymore power into them anymore than you try and do a hydrogen based jump while in jump.

Very well. That does put the kibosh on regular commercial use of the ANJD, at least for the lower jump drives. Not so much the freetraders who already spend a week in each system (I don't buy the notion that "the authorities" would forbid fusion reactors from run while ships are in port[*]), but for the regular ships that only stay in a system for a couple of days before jumping out again. What a pity there's no other application for this drive.
[*] And if they did, they surely wouldn't object to the ship hooking up to the starport power grid and recharge that way.​
How much waste heat is a fully operational power plant going to dump into the starport?

Suddenly the starport has to provide massive heat sinks or coolant?

A free trader spends a week on the ground looking for cargo/passengers according to the rules - transit time to and from jump point is usually a few hours at most at 1g.

A solar collector based ship would have to sit for 4 days per jump 1 on average waiting to charge the jump engine by whatever means. assuming a hybrid craft could do it in the minimum time required it's still and extra day and a half added to every jump cycle. Over a year that adds up.

Now again back to the metagame - if I were allocating a cost to the accumulators for a solar collector based drive I would make them so expensive that a jump 1 hybrid can't compete with a jump 1 hydrogen based ship.

Except, that is, to cross rifts and go through systems with no ready source of hydrogen. Why, you could cross the Great Rift in half a dozen jumps instead of having to spend a couple of dozen jumps going around. I think you might even save a few hours by doing it that way, don't you?
The great rift has no stars - therefore a solar collector based craft wouldn't be able to do it at all.
A hybrid ship would have to take along all the power plant fuel for the trip - and power plant fuel takes up quite a bit of space too.

So much so that it would be better to use fuel caches or drop tanks to make the trip

It's a real head-scratcher to imagine why no one does that, isn't it? Could it be that the ANJD doesn't actually exist in the OTU, whatever other Traveller universes it may exist in?
No need to be snarky ;)

Except that the Annic Nova does exist in the OTU - JTAS and adventure, TAS news items etc.
Accept it and explain it instead of just ignoring it.

It is very easy to come up with the design sequence for solar collector based jump drives, even hybrids, that is compatible with LBB2 and HG (in fact HG probaly provides the base value for the actual jump engine) in such a way as to make the hydrogen based drive the preferred economical choice - since it is economics that rules the OTU after all ;)


It would not be enough to do provide a reason in the case of the higher jumps. A jump-4 that can jump once every three weeks carrying a 60% payload (note: figures are not exact) would outcompete one that can jump once every two weeks with a 30% payload.


Hans
Ok, assuming the OTU is real in some form - solar collector base jump drives and hybrids cost far too much to make them economically viable.

Once again - it is up to the game designers to make an economic incentive for the hydrogen based drive.

The OTU is a sandbox - this is actually something that has fueled my imagination for Traveller for the first time in a long time - time to write the design sequence for solar collectors and hybrids methinks.
 
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After crunching the numbers, I see only two conclusions, either anything will work for cooling and canon is fine or nothing will work and back to the drawing board. Though this is the part I guess where we say: "It's the future..." :D

I'd be suprised if the fusion reactors were using mechanical work to get electricity, I would think there is some super photo voltaic system converting photons or heat directly into electricity. A steam turbine implies water tankage, generators and much more complexity and size of the engineering compartment.
The only way I have been able to rationalise the fuel required by Traveller power plant is that some sort of gravitic compression technology is used to cause the fusion reaction.

I guess it would be some sort of plasma induction electricity generation system that would actually provide power to the ship ;)

Once you are in the realms of the magic of Traveller grav tech all real world physics goes out the window.
 
The only way I have been able to rationalise the fuel required by Traveller power plant is that some sort of gravitic compression technology is used to cause the fusion reaction.

I guess it would be some sort of plasma induction electricity generation system that would actually provide power to the ship ;)

Once you are in the realms of the magic of Traveller grav tech all real world physics goes out the window.

Ishmael did post a very nice article from Lawrence Livermore Labs on direct energy conversion from a fusion power source. There it lists both and kinetic magnetic and electromagnetic system. This discussion has been good for going and looking over various scientific papers and theories, ah, I'm always the nerd.

I do envision some sort of gravitic compression for the fusion process as well.

With Annic Nova, it's Jump Drive could have external cooling fins but by some highly complex radiant array. That would explain how it gets by without cooling like the hydrogen system and why it is not commonly used as it is very fragile and one shot could take out your jump drive.
 
The rule is clear, yes. That wasn't what my comment was about.

In any case, it was a digression. Forget it and let's get back to the main argument:

Let me rephrase the question, then. Does it make sense to you that they don't carry along the hydrogen for their power plants in the form of water? Can you come up with an explanation, not invoking alternate physical laws[*], that makes sense?

[*] Can you come up with a self-consistent alternate physical law that would explain it, for that matter?​


Hans

Reliability. The less equipment needed between fuel storage and fuel use, the more reliable the system.

Since high power pumps are required in either case, it's not saving on pumps to use water, as you then have to add water pumps in addition to gaseous hydrogen pumps. Using water puts additional, power-using, complex electromechanical and electrolytic equipment between fuel tank and drive.

Also, water means carrying 9 tons water per ton of hydrogen to be extracted, assuming no losses in conversion.

While reducing the volume to 9/14ths (~64%), it massively increases fuel mass, and would overload the design assumptions (See BL-NAM or FF&S1) of ≤10 Tons-Mass per Td.

--------------------------------------------------
Assuming, for the moment, that CT is the best fit to the physics of the OTU...

Lets examine the requirements to convert the Type S high guard design variant to water.

Assumptions:
  • Bk5:HG + A5:TCS rates for all equipment are accurate.
  • FPP rates are in Td of Liquid H2 output per 8 hours
  • Rounding to 3 significant digits right of decimal place, minimum 3 right of decimal.
  • Jfuel is spent during the final turn of power acquisition.
  • TL12 for an imperium-wide design.
  • The FPP includes the additional pumps needed.
  • Maintenance Time = unrounded crew requirement * 40hrs

A PP2 100Td hull needs 2 Tons fuel per 4 weeks. that's 0.5 Td per week. That's 0.0714 Td per day, or 0.0238 per 8-hours. the FPP needs to be 0.3% of the 8-hour volume. (TCS) That's an FPP volume of 0.0000714 Td. Negligible. Except for the 6 Td minimum for an FPP. It saves a mere 0.714 tons of fuelspace, but adds an additional potential point of failure, and 6 tons lost to additional equipment. Net benefit -5.286 Td, increased drive tonnage, and additional point of possible failure.

Now, for the 20 Tons JFuel.
Assumption mode 1: 6 minutes of fuel burn during jump

20 Td in 0.1 Hours = 200 Td/Hr = 1600 Td/8hr
1600 Td Capacity x0.003 = 4.8 Td FPP but note minimum 6 Td
20x 9/14 = 12.857 Td (7.143 Td saved)

Net savings: 2.343 Td
Net Cost increase: Cr31998
additional maintenance: 6.857 hours per week (6:51:26)
Additional failure points: FPP.
Not bad...
Assumption mode 2: 36 seconds burn duration
20 Td in 0.01 Hours = 2000 Td/Hr = 16000 Td/8hr
16000 Td Capacity x0.003 = 48 Td FPP
20x 9/14 = 12.857 Td (7.143 Td saved)

Net loss: 40 Td and change
Net Cost increase: Cr319980
additional maintenance: 54 hours 51 min 26sec per week
Additional failure points: FPP.

It's reasonable to, on large ships, carry the PP fuel as water, but due to minimum sizes, not on small ships.

Given the minimums on TCS p15...
once fuel saved exceeds minimum tonnage, it's worthwhile to consider it... roughly, when FPP minimum exceeds 5/14 base fuel rates.
So TL8, you need to exceed 28Td fuel
Rounding to next ton:
TL 9, 25Td
TL 10, 23Td
TL 11, 20 Td
TL 12, 17Td
TL 13, 14Td
TL 14, 11Td
TL 15, 9Td

Most HG ships in the sub 1000Td range don't carry that much PP fuel.
At 400 Td, the PP4 Type T should switch to H20 for PP Fuel at TL 13+...

But, given the savings, J fuel switching is a matter of just how short the use time is. If it's longer than a couple minutes, you can save space by using water. If you're willing to accept the increased risks of an additional drive, and at least 1/10th of an additional engineering rating.
 
I just thought of another thing about carrying thousands of gallons of water, if the tanks get ruptured in combat, they would flood the ship, then freeze and the resultant ice expansion would potentialy destroy the interior of the ship.
 
It's mentioned explicitely in his definitive jump drive article...
Yes, that was the one instance I was referring to.

... and has been mentioned in other sources too.
Name three.

I would accept this if other canon were consistent - but it isn't.
Are you familiar with the concept of preponderance of evidence? If 80% of the canonical reference says one thing and the other 20% says something different, you go with the majority of the evidence, unless there are reasons not to.

So maneuver drives are thrusters and not reaction drives, jump uses 10% of tonnage per jump number and not 5*<jump+1>, stramlined designs are not 20% less roomy than their unstreamlined counterparts, etc. etc.


DGP invented the jump drive dates to tie in with the HG re-write of the jump drive paradigm.

The fact remains that every CT adventure and supplement that used the LBB2design sequence outnumber the HG derived ones.
So what? The fact remain that building jump-6 designs require TL15.

And even HG states that the LBB2 drives can be used instead.
HG explicitly grandfathers Book 2 designs precisely because they are incompatible with the HG paradigm.

Not if I wrote the design sequence for them it wouldn't - that 's why the standard is the hydrogen based engine.
It's not just the standard. According to the ship design rules, it's the only available option.

It takes 1-6 weeks to recharge the equivalent of jump 5 - the average is 3.
The average is irrelevant. Given the right conditions, it can be done in one week. Therefore it can be done in one week.

So it's 21 days divided by 5 on average to charge for jump 1, that's 4 days per jump 1 in average circumstances.
That's when you use solar collectors to provide the power. There's nothing magical about the electricity you get out of solar panels. It doesn't come with a aura that makes it different in any way from electricity generated in any other way. Therefore any other kind of power generation contraption can charge those special capacitors in the same time solar can charge them when conditions are optimal.

Yes, a jump 1 solar collector based ship would have 1/5 of the accumulators, but I would have a minimum size for the solar collector machinery built into the design sequence - meta game balancing.
That's silly, because solar panels are among the things we know enough about to estimate the size of (not to mention that several of the rules sets provide stats for solar collectors). But it really doesn't matter, because I'm not talking about using solar collectors, I'm talking about substituting a plain old simple fusion generator for the solar collectors.

Let me repeat that, since it's pretty crucial to my argument: I'm talking about the ramifications of having a jump drive that can be powered by a relatively small amount of power over several days. If the Annic Nova's solar collectors can collect enough electricity to power its jump drives in a week, then a power source that delivers the same amout of electricity in a week can do the same. Is that clear?

Of course [recharging won't work in jumpspace], the jump engines are set performing the jump you have initiated, you don't go feeding anymore power into them anymore than you try and do a hydrogen based jump while in jump.
That's wrong for a start, because the jump drive has done its job once the jump has been initiated[*], but even if the drive was still busy, the capacitors would still be empty.

How much waste heat is a fully operational power plant going to dump into the starport?
Depends on its size, don't it? The equivalent of what a solar sail of the size carried by the Annic Nova can collect in a week under optimum conditions. The ship isn't going to run its maneuver drive or fire its weapons while in port, is it?

Suddenly the starport has to provide massive heat sinks or coolant?
You think that would be beyond the capability of futuristic technology? What's the problem with hooking up a water pipe and a drain?

Though a hookup to a power main would be simpler.

A hybrid ship would have to take along all the power plant fuel for the trip - and power plant fuel takes up quite a bit of space too.
Depends on how much fuel you need.

So much so that it would be better to use fuel caches or drop tanks to make the trip.
I sincerely doubt that.

Except that the Annic Nova does exist in the OTU - JTAS and adventure, TAS news items etc.
All references to the Annic Nova, including TNS newsbriefs, are from the same single source, the adventure.

Accept it and explain it instead of just ignoring it.
Would that I could explain it. And I would never ignore it. If I could explain it, I would use it. As it is, I'm advocating retconning it.


Hans
 
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