How do jump drives really work?

[HG_B]

I don't think so. I could be wrong, but I think that the statement conflicts in one way or another with every single other official version of the jump drive ever described.

Page 58 MT Referee's Manual: "Jump drives are themselves a special high-yeild power plant linked to an intergral net in the craft's hull for initiating and maintaining the jump field. Because a jump drive is also a power plant, it must be allocated fuel seperate and distinct from the craft's power plant."

And

MGT Main Rule Book pg. 141 "To Jump, a ship creates a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting high-energy exotic particles into an artificial singularity. The singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny parallel universe which is then blown up like a balloon by injecting hydrogen into it. The Jump bubble is folded around the ship, carrying it into the little pocket universe."

So, as you can plainly see, my explanation is in accordance with 2 official version of Traveller and is therefore Cannon.

 

[rancke]

Page 58 MT Referee's Manual: "Jump drives are themselves a special high-yield power plant linked to an intergral net in the craft's hull for initiating and maintaining the jump field. Because a jump drive is also a power plant, it must be allocated fuel seperate and distinct from the craft's power plant."

But all the jump fuel is used before the jump is initiated (evidence:drop tanks). So how does the jump drive maintain the jump field without any fuel?

And

MGT Main Rule Book pg. 141 "To Jump, a ship creates a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting high-energy exotic particles into an artificial singularity. The singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny parallel universe which is then blown up like a balloon by injecting hydrogen into it. The Jump bubble is folded around the ship, carrying it into the little pocket universe."

But if all the fuel is used to form the jump bubble, where does the necessary energy come from if no one is shooting at you? (And why call it fuel at all?)

So, as you can plainly see, my explanation is in accordance with 2 official version of Traveller and is therefore Canon.

Even if that is true, so what? All the controversy arise from canon. Either it contradicts other canon or it's selfcontradictory. If it wasn't contradictory, there wouldn't be a problem, now would there?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

But all the jump fuel is used before the jump is initiated (evidence:drop tanks). So how does the jump drive maintain the jump field without any fuel?

It doesn't state all is used. ONLY all is sucked out of the drop tank. Part of the J-drive could just as well have a small reserve tank.

But if all the fuel is used to form the jump bubble, where does the necessary energy come from if no one is shooting at you? (And why call it fuel at all?)

In MGT the PP supplies power to the J-drive during jump.

It appears that you haven't delved into the rule material from either of the versions I mentioned as you were unfamiliar with those core rules.


I suggest becoming familiar with those rules in order to better parse this problem. That is not to say that there won't be differences. HOWEVER, the answer as to whether or not you can just use power from the capacitors for jump is CLEARLY answered.

 

[rancke]

HOWEVER, the answer as to whether or not you can just use power from the capacitors for jump is CLEARLY answered.

Only if you accept that bit of canon over other bits of canon. Why is that bit of canon better than the one that claims that all the jump fuel is converted to energy in less than 40 minutes?

(Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer an explanation that didn't involve the jump drive just being an incredibly inefficient fusion power plant and am quite ready to ignore the canon that implies that such is the case. But the point is that I would have to ignore some canon references to do so, since the alternative uses for the hydrogen are CLEARLY not part of the CT and MT canon.)


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

True enough. But note the implications. Even with the capacitors full of energy, you still need some "fuel" to be able to jump. Which creates a contradiction no matter how you interpret it.


Hans

Not at all.

Fuel is required for the hydrogen based jump drives used in High Guard.

But High Guard doesn't include the rules for solar collector based jump drives.

Therefore the HG2 combat rules only detail the combat parameters of the hydrogen based jump drive.

 

[HG_B]

Only if you accept that bit of canon over other bits of canon. Why is that bit of canon better than the one that claims that all the jump fuel is converted to energy in less than 40 minutes?

Sounds like you are referring to a rule from the earliest days of the game before Marc wrote updated rules. So, like the rule in 1st Ed that stated that JDs used all fuel regardless of jump distance, this too has been amended in later editions of the game. Why have new editions if not to update rules?

 

[mike wightman]

Page 58 MT Referee's Manual: "Jump drives are themselves a special high-yeild power plant linked to an intergral net in the craft's hull for initiating and maintaining the jump field. Because a jump drive is also a power plant, it must be allocated fuel seperate and distinct from the craft's power plant."

And

MGT Main Rule Book pg. 141 "To Jump, a ship creates a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting high-energy exotic particles into an artificial singularity. The singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny parallel universe which is then blown up like a balloon by injecting hydrogen into it. The Jump bubble is folded around the ship, carrying it into the little pocket universe."

So, as you can plainly see, my explanation is in accordance with 2 official version of Traveller and is therefore Cannon.

The only trouble with MT as being OTU canon is that the authors, DGP, were using their own interpretations of a lot of things rather than what had actually been written before.

Marc's jump drive JTAS article doesn't mention hull grids - that's a DGP invention for MT.

Marc's jump drives have lanthanum coils, DGPs have a lanthanum hull grid.

DGP also lowered the jump fuel required to make a jump and went back to the pre-jump governor/pre-revised edition CT jump fuel paradigm of all fuel is used no matter the distance jumped. Which clashes quite a bit with the revised edition/HG2 description of jump only consuming the fraction of fuel needed to make a jump of the desired distance.

 

[mike wightman]

Sounds like you are referring to a rule from the earliest days of the game before Marc wrote updated rules. So, like the rule in 1st Ed that stated that JDs used all fuel regardless of jump distance, this too has been amended in later editions of the game. Why have new editions if not to update rules?

As I just mentioned - MT was written by DGP and used their preconceptions rather than rules that had been written (I honestly think the folks at DGP based their rules on 1st edition Traveller because they never upgraded to revised edition/TTB/ST or even HG2 Traveller paradigms.

And this has been the problem with the OTU for a long time now.

Each different group of authors bring their own pet ideas to their version of the OTU - even the folks at GDW did this.

There is not OTU really - there are lots of OTU's that are similar but different due to the tech paradigm changes the authors either accidentally due to misunderstanding or deliberately introduce.

CT - jump drives need no power plant, all fuel is used to make a jump, solar collector based jump drives are an alternative to hydrogen fueled jump drives, jump drives are bigger than maneuver drives.

CTrevised/TTB/ST - jump drives now need a power plant - X-boat is now a broken design

HG/HG2 - jump drives are now smaller than maneuver drives

And all of the above are CT changes. Make the change to MT, TNE, T4 and something pretty major changes with each ruleset.

 

[HG_B]

As I just mentioned - MT was written by DGP and used their preconceptions rather than rules that had been written

And, it was approved by Marc to be the Trav rules set at the time... Just as MGT is today...

 

[rancke]

Fuel is required for the hydrogen based jump drives used in High Guard.

But High Guard doesn't include the rules for solar collector based jump drives.

That's because the solar collector based jump drive doesn't exist[*]. We've been over this before.


Hans

[*] Because if it did exist, then the ordinary power plant based jump drive would also exist and the rifts would not be a significant barrier to travel. Since the rifts are a significant barrier to travel, the power plant based jump drive does not exist. Therefore the solar collector based jump drive doesn't exist either.​

 

[rancke]

There is not OTU really - there are lots of OTU's that are similar but different due to the tech paradigm changes the authors either accidentally due to misunderstanding or deliberately introduce.

That's one way of looking at it, but IMO a very unhelpful one. It compels you to reject every Traveller version but the one you consider to be the right one, which is a terrible waste of decades of Traveller material.

If the first edition of Mercenaries & Musketeers claimed that the King's Musketeers had 600 men with noblemen for officers and commoners for other ranks and a revised edition said that it was 120 men, every one of them noble, would you conclude that the second edition was talking about a different universe or that the first edition had been wrong?


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

That's because the solar collector based jump drive doesn't exist[*]. We've been over this before.


Hans
[*] Because if it did exist, then the ordinary power plant based jump drive would also exist and the rifts would not be a significant barrier to travel. Since the rifts are a significant barrier to travel, the power plant based jump drive does not exist. Therefore the solar collector based jump drive doesn't exist either.

It's in Marc's jumpspace article therefore it exists

As to an ordinary power plant powering a jump drive - it does. A power plant of equal rating to the jump drive has been required since HG1st edition.

The question is what a hydrogen based jump drive does with all that extra hydrogen it requires - which sort of brings us back to the start...

 

[mike wightman]

That's one way of looking at it, but IMO a very unhelpful one. It compels you to reject every Traveller version but the one you consider to be the right one, which is a terrible waste of decades of Traveller material.

Often contradictory and incompatible material - TNE retconned all golden age OTU ships to obey the TNE tech paradigm, does that invalidate all the years I put into HG?

If the first edition of Mercenaries & Musketeers claimed that the King's Musketeers had 600 men with noblemen for officers and commoners for other ranks and a revised edition said that it was 120 men, every one of them noble, would you conclude that the second edition was talking about a different universe or that the first edition had been wrong?


Hans

I would go check the historical facts for myself

Sadly an option we don't have for a fictional future universe sandbox that had more paradigm changes than you can shake a stick at.

 

[HG_B]

As to an ordinary power plant powering a jump drive - it does. power plant of equal rating to the jump drive has been required since HG1st edition.

Not in MT, in which Marc takes credit as being the Designer...

The question is what a hydrogen based jump drive does with all that extra hydrogen it requires - which sort of brings us back to the start...

That question is answered in the latest edition approved by Marc as cannon.

 

[rancke]

Sounds like you are referring to a rule from the earliest days of the game before Marc wrote updated rules. So, like the rule in 1st Ed that stated that JDs used all fuel regardless of jump distance, this too has been amended in later editions of the game. Why have new editions if not to update rules?

In that sense any MT material has been superceded half a dozen times and it's pointless to bring it up at all. Just refer to MGT and be done with it.

But we're not discussing rules (I'm not, anyway). The thread is named "How do jump drives really work?" We're discussing the underlying "reality" of those rules. Otherwise, why bother to say anthing more than "Go read MGT Core Book"?



Hans

 

[shadowcat20]

And off we go again.......:rofl:

This has been a very interesting thread.

IF there are Solar sail driven ships, can they be armored? HG being a military based book may ignore sail ships as not useful to the military. Civilian ships might be able to use it but not combat ships.

Just stirring the pot some more.......

 

[rancke]

Often contradictory and incompatible material - TNE retconned all golden age OTU ships to obey the TNE tech paradigm, does that invalidate all the years I put into HG?

No. It warrants examinig TNE to see if it fits the sum total of existing background material, and when we find that it doesn't (Reaction drives instead of thrusters? What nonsens!), we can reject TNE's retcons for cause. But we can still use the bits of TNE that doesn't contradict anything. In some cases it may even make better sense than HG (I forget, does TNE have those ridiculously inefficient power plants that HG features?)

I would go check the historical facts for myself

Why bother? If the 1st and 2nd Edition described different universes, obviously (at least) one of them wouldn't be Real Universe 17th Century France, so what difference would it make which one fit the historical facts? The whole concept of checking the historical facts implies that both editions were talking about the same universe, only one of them was wrong.

Sadly an option we don't have for a fictional future universe sandbox that had more paradigm changes than you can shake a stick at.

I'm aware of that. It does complicate things a bit. But IMO not enough to prevent the approach I champion from being much more useful, let alone invalidate it completely.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It's in Marc's jumpspace article therefore it exists

How do you know that Marc hasn't changed his mind since he wrote it?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

But we're not discussing rules (I'm not, anyway). The thread is named "How do jump drives really work?" We're discussing the underlying "reality" of those rules.

There is no 'reality' to jump drives as they have NOTHING to do with physical universe reality, only rules. Therefore, you can only examine the rules...

 

[rancke]

There is no 'reality' to jump drives as they have NOTHING to do with physical universe reality, only rules. Therefore, you can only examine the rules...

We certainly need to examine the rules. But there are a lot more to examine. Articles about how jump drives work, adventures describing how jump drives work, historical accounts involving the use of jump drives. Not to mention other rules. And, of course, ramifications of all of the above.

Otherwise, why not just say "Read the MGT Core Book"?


Hans