Theophilus
SOC-13
And yet the Chrysanthemum DE is said to have some examples in service for over 100 years.
Plankwell and Kokirrak
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
Some AHLs also lasted for over a century. Just not a lot. The IN could still be building Chrysanthemums, something that presumably is not the case with the Kokirraks since they have evidently run out of the system it is designed as a platform for (relic black globes).
Note that the Chrysanthemums and Fer-de-Lances are TL15 designs. If they fulfil their designated roles well there's no reason why the IN shouldn't keep on building them. That doesn't mean that most of them last for a century.
Hans
martletsquire
SOC-12
With the Chrysanthemum and other decent designs, or not-decent designs, building the hull is the easy part. Especially if you build it so that components can be easily replaced and/or upgraded.
So, get those TL12 and TL13 yards to build the shell, toss the empties into/onto a tender, take to a TL14 or TL15 yard to pop in the higher tech stuff. Or build it modular so that the TL15 yard ships the various modules to the lower tech worlds and voila, TL15 ships from a TL13/TL14 yard that has been building the same basic vessel for a hundred years or so...
Just my thought on decent hulls and how long you keep building them, vs the time you keep a flawed design in production.
So, get those TL12 and TL13 yards to build the shell, toss the empties into/onto a tender, take to a TL14 or TL15 yard to pop in the higher tech stuff. Or build it modular so that the TL15 yard ships the various modules to the lower tech worlds and voila, TL15 ships from a TL13/TL14 yard that has been building the same basic vessel for a hundred years or so...
Just my thought on decent hulls and how long you keep building them, vs the time you keep a flawed design in production.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Since hull armour at TL14 is the same at TL15 hulls can indeed be built at TL14 yards.
You then move them via tender to a TL15 yard for drives, electronics, weapons etc.
You then move them via tender to a TL15 yard for drives, electronics, weapons etc.
True, unless the hull has things like electronic bits embedded.
Or you can build TL15 combat ships at TL15 shipyards and use TL10-14 shipyards to build auxiliaries.
Hans
Except that it's actually cheaper to build some ships at TL15. Giving your business to a TL10 yard is a kind of charity work.
That depends on your assumptions.
Perhaps membership charters specify that taxes to the Imperium must be spent on the world that pays the tax.
Hans
Theophilus
SOC-13
An this ignores the Atlantic heavy cruiser, which started out in TA7 as a TL14 design, yet in Supp9 is a TL15 design. 550 are still in service well over a century after construction.
So. it appears the Imperiuim will keep ships in service for over a century.
So. it appears the Imperiuim will keep ships in service for over a century.
martletsquire
SOC-12
Giving naval hulls to a lower tech world to build or assemble can do at least 3 things in the positive.
1. Build up institutional knowledge at a lower tech yard in order to bootstrap them to a higher level. Even though the yard may not increase the actual tech level of the system, it provides experience for the future for emergency repairs. (Think Grayson space industries in the David Weber - Honor Harrington series.)
2. Frees up valuable TL15 yard space for construction of hulls and components that absolutely require TL15 yard space.
3. Spreads out fleet yardage over several systems, once the lesser yards get the experience and the equipment to fix higher tech, so that a hit against a main yard won't be as totally devastating. Still devastating, but the partial loss of a major TL15 yard with no backup is much worse than the partal loss of a TL15 yard with yardage available in surrounding systems available for emergency or secondary repair, allowing valuable yard space to be freed up for the big projects.
1. Build up institutional knowledge at a lower tech yard in order to bootstrap them to a higher level. Even though the yard may not increase the actual tech level of the system, it provides experience for the future for emergency repairs. (Think Grayson space industries in the David Weber - Honor Harrington series.)
2. Frees up valuable TL15 yard space for construction of hulls and components that absolutely require TL15 yard space.
3. Spreads out fleet yardage over several systems, once the lesser yards get the experience and the equipment to fix higher tech, so that a hit against a main yard won't be as totally devastating. Still devastating, but the partial loss of a major TL15 yard with no backup is much worse than the partal loss of a TL15 yard with yardage available in surrounding systems available for emergency or secondary repair, allowing valuable yard space to be freed up for the big projects.
No, the Atlantic started out in Supp 9 as a TL15 design. If TA7 claims that it is a TL14 design, then it is contradicting the original information. Just as with the Chrysantemum and the Fer-de-Lance. As I said before, TA7 does not appear to be a very reliable source of information.
Earliest date that in mentioned in Supp 9 is 1020. The latest date is 1050, so the Atlantics are "fast approaching obsolescence" 57 years after the newest of them was built.
Hans
perhaps the Atlantics where built with key systems integrated, the TL has moved on or the company that made them in the first place has gone bust. if it's quicker, cheaper and more stratigacaly sound to declare the Atlantics obsolete and pick up a follow-on design or one from a competing firm?
Silverhawk
SOC-12
Design, performance, and reliability all factor into a vehicle's staying power. A real world example, if I may would be in railroad locomotives. And just for disclosure, I work in the transportation field.
There are two main builders of locomotives in North America, Electro Motive Diesel (also known as EMD) and General Electric. Now today in service with the major railroads there are several hundred SD 40 and SD 40-2 locomotives that were built starting around 1967. They have been rebuilt and upgraded (several times in some cases) and are still working. All contemporary General Electric models from that time have been retired, sold to overseas railroads, or scrapped.
So it the AHL's were a great performer, could meet mission requirements, and had service reliability it makes sense that they would be in service for a long time. The Atlantics may be fast approaching obsolescence due to lack of performance, or some other short coming that cannot be upgraded away.
I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. The last Atlantic was built in 1050. At that time someone said "No more Atlantics" and they stopped building any more. Presumably they started building another class of heavy cruiser not too long after that. At that time there were 794 of them (less any that had been lost during the time the building took place). 57 years later there are about 500 of them left, and they are now (1107) being phased into second line assignments as fast as possible.
Hans
3I uses heavy shipyard automation. Lifting up worlds and spreading knowledge appears in Regency Sourcebook and TNE products, but we don't see signs of growth like that across other eras.
There is no reason to believe they had a capacity issues, but it appears competition was important.
IMTU versioning is very important. A ship goes in for the 40 year major overhaul and comes out with new bits and new capabilities. Much like our modern navies re-imagining the uses of mothball vessels, if needed.
Kokkirak and Plankwell may have the old hulls and wiring, but some systems are replaced and updated. On the other hand it is interesting to have a culture that keeps old spare parts and never changes the design specification.
Kokkirak and Plankwell may have the old hulls and wiring, but some systems are replaced and updated. On the other hand it is interesting to have a culture that keeps old spare parts and never changes the design specification.
None of the ships that we have information about have been built in this manner. They have all been built in single shipyards.
In real life shipyard capacity grows (or contracts) to equal the required tonnage. I see no reason why this should not be the case in the Far Future. If the Imperium wants more TL15 ships built, old TL15 shipyards will be expanded or new opened on TL15 worlds until the capacity is there.
Hans
you see it in percurment a lot, example you have the MakerMachine 3K a top of the line highly affordable piece of manufacturing equipment a key integrated component is the Thing-a-ma-Bob 5000, no Thing-a-ma-Bob 5000 no MakerMachine 3K, now Thing-a-ma-Bob LLC goes bust or they stop making the Thing-a-ma-Bob 5000 because they need the factory space to make their new 8000-B the MakerMachine 3K is now obsolete because of the now dwindling supply of replacement Thing-a-ma-Bob 5000's. if the MakerMachine 3K hadn't had the Thing-a-ma-Bob 5000 as a fully integrated key component perhaps they could have redesigned it to to use the Thing-a-ma-Bob 6500 or Watch-a-ma-CallIt Deluxe or some Thing-A-Ma-Jigga.
same kind of thing happens with military equipment all the time, some twenty cent widget (that the government pays $5 for) goes out of production and a perfectly good (or even slightly superior) Combat Asset gets pulled from everyday service because without that widget the multi-million dollar thing don't Fly/Drive/Shoot/talk to C&C/give a valid IFF.
same kind of thing happens with military equipment all the time, some twenty cent widget (that the government pays $5 for) goes out of production and a perfectly good (or even slightly superior) Combat Asset gets pulled from everyday service because without that widget the multi-million dollar thing don't Fly/Drive/Shoot/talk to C&C/give a valid IFF.
Tell that to the users of the M1 MBT. there is a inconspicuous nut on that thing made of a special alloy to exacting specifications, with out that nut (that you need three of per tank) you may as well park them, the company that made them went bust in the 80's, at the time the army got in to trouble for the numbers of this nut they where ordering, when they reduced their order to a number fixed by the folks inside the beltway the supplier went belly up, and they have bean drawing down on their stockpiles ever since, thankfully the M1 used the nut in nine other places where it could be subuited so they where able to rebuild their stockpiles from withdrawn parts, it's just one example of parts on the M1 no longer in production that are needed to run the things that with careful rationing will reach critical levels on non-supply in around 40 years, the US Army wants to keep the M1 in service for around 50 more years.
martletsquire
SOC-12
In my experience you have to watch out for that oh so superior tech level line.
I used to work for a major rechargeable battery manufacturer in the US. They made the cells (the little things that got the power) and sent them to Juarez for assembly into the powerpack.
Juarez did not have the ability to make the cells, technically or physically. So we were higher tech than they were. But they could assemble the packs.
We only lost because the PRC wound up production to the max (amazing what you can do with prison factories.)
Just an example of higher tech vs lower tech.
As to yard space. Yes, the high tech yard will want to expand as much as possible to corner the market and make itself indispensable. But local yards, which need and want the work and the boost of tech that comes with it will want in on the game also. Smart procurement bureaus will try to balance all the factors.
A smart Sector Duke will push to increase as much useable yard space across the board, if only to encourage trade, which equals money, or security, which equals money, or control, which equals money.
When I ran a 6th Frontier Skirmish game-ish, based on 5FW, involving both infrastructure and warfighting, one of the Impie admirals kept on building up her infrastructure, at the beginning, to the detriment of her fleets, while the other two impies concentrated on their fleets solely. After the first few skirmishes, as broken and damaged escorts and other light craft poured back from the border, the clear winner was going to be the one with the most yard space and the quickest turn around time. This really became obvious once the damaged big boys started filtering back, to find in many cases yard slips full of smaller ships.
By about halfway through, the female admiral was able to out-repair and out-produce small to medium combatants vs the other two admirals, or the Zhos. Big ships had to be slated for production pretty much before the game started, so capital ship construction wasn't a real factor.
The game really seemed to hinge on the hit and run tactics of lighter components, screwing up rear areas and jacking supply convoys. Large battles tended to be semi-stagnant slug-fests ending up in nasty planetary invasions or bombardments.
I based the campaign off of the US vs Japanese in the central Pacific, with the Zhos having fortified lots and lots of little systems. It really sucked for the 3 Impies. Oh, and they had to fight for reinforcements from Central (me!) as they fought the Zho (Me!). It was fun. For Me! Almost got strangled. Oh well.
I used to work for a major rechargeable battery manufacturer in the US. They made the cells (the little things that got the power) and sent them to Juarez for assembly into the powerpack.
Juarez did not have the ability to make the cells, technically or physically. So we were higher tech than they were. But they could assemble the packs.
We only lost because the PRC wound up production to the max (amazing what you can do with prison factories.)
Just an example of higher tech vs lower tech.
As to yard space. Yes, the high tech yard will want to expand as much as possible to corner the market and make itself indispensable. But local yards, which need and want the work and the boost of tech that comes with it will want in on the game also. Smart procurement bureaus will try to balance all the factors.
A smart Sector Duke will push to increase as much useable yard space across the board, if only to encourage trade, which equals money, or security, which equals money, or control, which equals money.
When I ran a 6th Frontier Skirmish game-ish, based on 5FW, involving both infrastructure and warfighting, one of the Impie admirals kept on building up her infrastructure, at the beginning, to the detriment of her fleets, while the other two impies concentrated on their fleets solely. After the first few skirmishes, as broken and damaged escorts and other light craft poured back from the border, the clear winner was going to be the one with the most yard space and the quickest turn around time. This really became obvious once the damaged big boys started filtering back, to find in many cases yard slips full of smaller ships.
By about halfway through, the female admiral was able to out-repair and out-produce small to medium combatants vs the other two admirals, or the Zhos. Big ships had to be slated for production pretty much before the game started, so capital ship construction wasn't a real factor.
The game really seemed to hinge on the hit and run tactics of lighter components, screwing up rear areas and jacking supply convoys. Large battles tended to be semi-stagnant slug-fests ending up in nasty planetary invasions or bombardments.
I based the campaign off of the US vs Japanese in the central Pacific, with the Zhos having fortified lots and lots of little systems. It really sucked for the 3 Impies. Oh, and they had to fight for reinforcements from Central (me!) as they fought the Zho (Me!). It was fun. For Me! Almost got strangled. Oh well.
