Plankwell and Kokirrak

[atpollard]

For the record, my original post was intended as a joke, but the M1A1 nut story smacks of urban myth. Lockheed's Skunkworks could probably manufacture a part of virtually any shape out of virtually any material to specifications good enough for any application. So problems with off the shelf availability is probably a reasonable complaint, but 'nobody can make it' sounds like at least a little hyperbole.

Since this bunny trail is at least partly my fault, let me try to comment on topic ... As ships age and doctrine and TL makes the old state-of-the-art a lot less state-of-the-art, the cost of annual maintenance may significantly increase as once common off-the-shelf parts need to be custom fabricated and shipped from TL 14 worlds to the TL 15 maintenance depots. However, that could just as easily be a campaign hook. A TL 14 world specializes in working on 'vintage' military starships and is generally unavailable for civilian maintenance because of the demand by planetary and allied navies.

YMMV

 

[aramis]

For the record, my original post was intended as a joke, but the M1A1 nut story smacks of urban myth. Lockheed's Skunkworks could probably manufacture a part of virtually any shape out of virtually any material to specifications good enough for any application. So problems with off the shelf availability is probably a reasonable complaint, but 'nobody can make it' sounds like at least a little hyperbole.

NASA found it couldn't build (and the skunkworks couldn't either) new F1 nor J2 engines. Certain important process details had been lost. Worse, many details hadn't been recorded, and the guys who knew them are mostly dead. And those process details were simply SOP at the time.

They've managed to build new F1 engines... but not really. They are building a comparable, but slightly differently made, engine.

 

[rancke]

As to yard space. Yes, the high tech yard will want to expand as much as possible to corner the market and make itself indispensable. But local yards, which need and want the work and the boost of tech that comes with it will want in on the game also. Smart procurement bureaus will try to balance all the factors.

Shipyard space is one of the factors that is extremely simplified in Traveller. It's also a hugely complicated subject in Real Life (tm). It's not something I foresee any one of us actually managing to prove anything to the others about. It's just going to be one long list of examples, counterexamples, opinions, and differing opinions. So I prefer to skip all that and go with the (admittedly scanty) evidence we have and say that ships are usually built completely, hull to fittings, at one shipyard. The reason for this I leave for others to worry about.

That's not to say that I would object to some exceptions to that general rule of thumb -- in special cases.


Hans

 

[rancke]

NASA found it couldn't build (and the skunkworks couldn't either) new F1 nor J2 engines. Certain important process details had been lost. Worse, many details hadn't been recorded, and the guys who knew them are mostly dead. And those process details were simply SOP at the time.

Something like that would make a useful explanation for one or two specific cases. At TL15 I don't see it as a common problem.

They've managed to build new F1 engines... but not really. They are building a comparable, but slightly differently made, engine.

Well, isn't that good enough? If it looks like an F1 engine and performs like an F1 engine, I'd say it is, for all practical purposes, an F1 engine. I'd argue that such is the case even in Real Life; it's certainly the case for something as simplified as the Traveller shipbuilding rules.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Quoted from HERE.

The process for test-firing a 40+ year-old rocket engine, even if it's just the gas generator segment, is complicated: no current launch vehicles use the engine, so it wasn't a matter of simply grabbing one from a warehouse somewhere. Engineers removed components from an F-1 engine in storage at MSFC, as well as from another in "pristine" condition at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum in Washington, and then laser-scanned them using a structured light 3D scanner. Once this had been done, new gas generator parts were fabricated from the scans.

Suggests that it can be built.
I suspect that custom fabrication is too expensive for general use and renders starship or M1A1 or F1 maintenance impractical, not impossible.

[I welcome data that suggests otherwise ... it is just my opinion based on a casual knowledge of the subject, so enlightenment is always appreciated.]

 

[Ulsyus]

Shipyard space is one of the factors that is extremely simplified in Traveller. It's also a hugely complicated subject in Real Life (tm). It's not something I foresee any one of us actually managing to prove anything to the others about. It's just going to be one long list of examples, counterexamples, opinions, and differing opinions. So I prefer to skip all that and go with the (admittedly scanty) evidence we have and say that ships are usually built completely, hull to fittings, at one shipyard. The reason for this I leave for others to worry about.

That's not to say that I would object to some exceptions to that general rule of thumb -- in special cases.

Hans

Considering that BR tenders could be used to move hulls or hull components around from one system to the next to take advantage of building benefits in different locations, there's nothing to say that it couldn't be done. But the cost-benefit element would be a bit limiter. The cost to fuel the tender, as well as servicing, plus salaries, plus all those myriad other elements, would mean there'd have to be a pretty big saving involved in building over multiple shipyards. Of course, they could just ship smaller components to where the hulls were

 

[rancke]

Considering that BR tenders could be used to move hulls or hull components around from one system to the next to take advantage of building benefits in different locations, there's nothing to say that it couldn't be done.

No, but since BR tenders apparently are not used to move hulls or hull components from one system to the next, the advantage is apparently not worth the cost.

But the cost-benefit element would be a bit limiter. The cost to fuel the tender, as well as servicing, plus salaries, plus all those myriad other elements, would mean there'd have to be a pretty big saving involved in building over multiple shipyards. Of course, they could just ship smaller components to where the hulls were

You could argue the advantage of shipping hulls and components, but could you prove beyond any argument that it would be worth while?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

No, but since BR tenders apparently are not used to move hulls or hull components from one system to the next, the advantage is apparently not worth the cost. ...

The cost of transport is negligible compared to the cost of the hull itself. If it is not happening, there may be other factors involved. It may for example be easier to construct a ship from the inside out, since (if you're working in a space-based hangar) there's no gravity to complicate things and you've got three free dimensions to work in. It may be more costly and more difficult to do all that work inside a completed hull than in free space. Perhaps the hull goes on last, and if you don't have the tech to work that particular variety of hull metal, you can't use that hull metal.

... You could argue the advantage of shipping hulls and components, but could you prove beyond any argument that it would be worth while?...

High bar. Can we prove beyond any argument that it wouldn't? All we have to go on are bits and snippets of canon and rules, enough to maybe argue that things are done a certain way, but not enough to argue why it's done that way. Below the level of the rules, it's mostly black box and speculation.

 

[atpollard]

You could argue the advantage of shipping hulls and components, but could you prove beyond any argument that it would be worth while?

Ultimately proving nothing, but the Mongoose Traveller shipbuilding rules make shipping components the de-facto standard.
[now where is that umbrella ... before it starts raining excrement. ]

 

[rancke]

The cost of transport is negligible compared to the cost of the hull itself. If it is not happening, there may be other factors involved. It may for example be easier to construct a ship from the inside out, since (if you're working in a space-based hangar) there's no gravity to complicate things and you've got three free dimensions to work in. It may be more costly and more difficult to do all that work inside a completed hull than in free space. Perhaps the hull goes on last, and if you don't have the tech to work that particular variety of hull metal, you can't use that hull metal.

Whatever works for you.

High bar. Can we prove beyond any argument that it wouldn't? All we have to go on are bits and snippets of canon and rules, enough to maybe argue that things are done a certain way, but not enough to argue why it's done that way. Below the level of the rules, it's mostly black box and speculation.

Which is why I prefer to bypass the discussion and go straight to the answer on the cheat sheet.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Ultimately proving nothing, but the Mongoose Traveller shipbuilding rules make shipping components the de-facto standard.

Standard for what? The Third Imperium setting?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Whatever works for you. ...

Thank you, that's very kind of you.

 

[Theophilus]

Based upon the available information concerning the Kokirraks class and other contemporary battleships:

During the Solomani Rim War and Third Frontier War the Tiananmen class (TA7) was imperial standard (350kton, TL13) with the Perishser class (400kton, TL14) just coming into service. Wartime losses to the much smaller Solomani battlecruiser's (130-150kton) led to emergency designs to place hulls in service as quickly as possible. The small Inkaluur (Far Trader, 100kton) and Uzshu (HIgh Passage 5, 100kton) classes were the result, As the war wound down A new class of replacement battleships was designed, smaller than the previous Tiananmen and Perisher class, thus the Kokirraks was "born".

The only other contemporary ships (afaik) are the TL13 Voroshilef (Rebellion Sourcebook) and Tronskia (Spinward Marches Campaign, J-3 so at least TL2, but in the 627-722 era so no more than TL13)

This is my best quess.

 

[rancke]

Based upon the available information concerning the Kokirraks class and other contemporary battleships:

During the Solomani Rim War and Third Frontier War the Tiananmen class (TA7) was imperial standard (350kton, TL13) with the Perishser class (400kton, TL14) just coming into service.

Um... that's 300 years after the Imperium began building TL14 ships and they're just now beginning to change from a TL13 design as the standard?!? HIGHLY implausible.

Wartime losses to the much smaller Solomani battlecruiser's (130-150kton) led to emergency designs to place hulls in service as quickly as possible. The small Inkaluur (Far Trader, 100kton) and Uzshu (HIgh Passage 5, 100kton) classes were the result.

Big combat vessels take time to build. Replacing 5000 dreadnaughts would take many years (Though not 300! ).

As the war wound down A new class of replacement battleships was designed, smaller than the previous Tiananmen and Perisher class, thus the Kokirraks was "born".

The Kokirraks were designed to carry relic black globes, which would depend on when those BGs were found for the timing. Presumably there are several other TL15 design that were designed as regular replacements for obsolete TL14 designs.

The only other contemporary ships (afaik) are the TL13 Voroshilef (Rebellion Sourcebook) and Tronskia (Spinward Marches Campaign, J-3 so at least TL2, but in the 627-722 era so no more than TL13)

The only ones we know the names for, but FFW features eight or nine different battleship types of squadrons. Evidently the Imperium has a good deal more than two or three classes at a time. And in peacetime they would all be the highest mature tech level; some mothballed designs of lower TLs might become reactivated for the duration in times of war (Or be in active service in subsector and planetary navies). You might see some TL13 designs in front line service during the first half of the 8th Century, but that would be the latest. Likewise, some TL14 designs might still be in front line service during the first half of the 11th Century, but I don't see many surviving past 1050.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Um... that's 300 years after the Imperium began building TL14 ships and they're just now beginning to change from a TL13 design as the standard?!? HIGHLY implausible. ...

I'm still struggling with why they have depots at TL13 and lower. Maybe it's related.

 

[atpollard]

I'm still struggling with why they have depots at TL13 and lower. Maybe it's related.

Is the Depot TL 13 or is the world it orbits TL 13?
(I never followed the OTU that closely.)

If the world is TL 13, then it might be like a modern military base in a foreign country.
If the Depot is TL 13, then I can only say

 

[atpollard]

Ultimately proving nothing, but the Mongoose Traveller shipbuilding rules make shipping components the de-facto standard.

Standard for what? The Third Imperium setting?
Hans

MgT Core Book, pg 105

Spacecraft are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the
galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind
of ship, including a starship with Jump drives; any class B starport
can build small craft and ships which do not have Jump drives. The
military procures spaceships through these yards, corporations buy
their commercial craft from these shipyards, and private individuals
can purchase ships that they have designed through them as well.
The major restriction on the purchase of ships is money. Ships
designed using the system presented here are constructed using
off-the-shelf parts that are common throughout the Imperium.
Rules for spacecraft using a restricted technology base or cuttingedge
technology will be presented in future supplements.

MgT High Guard, pg 52

PRIMITIVE & ADVANCED SPACECRAFT
The Traveller core rulebook gives rules for building spacecraft as
they are built in most shipyards across the Imperium – a mix of
common off–the–shelf components, lowest–contractor–offer hulls,
and electronics imported from high–tech or industrial worlds across
the subsector. The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is
roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built. Many techniques
and components are standardised across the Imperium. That said,
characters may wish to purchase cutting–edge ships using the latest
in advanced materials and technologies. Isolated or interdicted
worlds may construct their own vessels without importing
components from outside. Explorers may run into Ancient derelicts
or warships built by primitive species.

Specifically, standard across the Imperium ... however, since it appears in the starship design rules for both MgT Core Rulebooks dealing with starship design, it is at least a plausible option for any and all Mongoose Traveller Rules based universes that use the Starship design rules. Transporting components for final assembly is clearly not FORBIDDEN in Mongoose Traveller.

[I acknowledge that the bulk of this topic appears focused on CT, but it is in the Fleet section of the board and not tagged with 'CT ONLY' in the title, so other versions of Traveller seem fair game for a source of data.]

 

[rancke]

Specifically, standard across the Imperium ... however, since it appears in the starship design rules for both MgT Core Rulebooks dealing with starship design, it is at least a plausible option for any and all Mongoose Traveller Rules based universes that use the Starship design rules. Transporting components for final assembly is clearly not FORBIDDEN in Mongoose Traveller.

And I've never thought that it was FORBIDDEN in the Third Imperium, the CT rule against it to the contrary notwithstanding. I have concluded that, for whatever reason, it wasn't S.O.P..

As an aside, the rule you quote seems like a load of cobblers to me. Why go to all that bother when the result is a ship that's three tech levels below cutting edge? I certainly can't see the Imperial Navy doing any such thing. And just why does transporting a TL15 component to another system degrade it to TL12? Sounds like a simplification for game purposes that shouldn't be taken as an actual setting feature.

[I acknowledge that the bulk of this topic appears focused on CT, but it is in the Fleet section of the board and not tagged with 'CT ONLY' in the title, so other versions of Traveller seem fair game for a source of data.]

No objection on my part, especially since you carefully specified the MgT connection.


Hans

 

[robject]

I'm still struggling with why they have depots at TL13 and lower. Maybe it's related.

That may be getting retconned.

 

[atpollard]

As an aside, the rule you quote seems like a load of cobblers to me. Why go to all that bother when the result is a ship that's three tech levels below cutting edge? I certainly can't see the Imperial Navy doing any such thing. And just why does transporting a TL15 component to another system degrade it to TL12? Sounds like a simplification for game purposes that shouldn't be taken as an actual setting feature.

I suspect that it may be an area where the gears will grind between CT and MgT, but it actually is a core feature of MgT High Guard shipbuilding.

Take a Jump Drive B designed for J2 in a 200 dT hull as a typical MgT Starship component, the same Drive manufactured at various TLs would look as follows:

Core Book: JD-B = 15 dT & 20 MCr
High Guard @ TL 10: JD-B = 30 dT & 30 MCr
High Guard @ TL 11: JD-B = 15 dT & 20 MCr
High Guard @ TL 12: JD-B = 14.25 dT & 22 MCr
High Guard @ TL 13: JD-B = 13.5 dT & 25 MCr
High Guard @ TL 14: JD-B = 11.25 dT & 40 MCr

So in MgT, the most economical JD-2 are manufactured at TL 11.

For something like a warship, let's look at a 10,000 dT ship with J4 under MgT HG: J4 = TL 13 = 5% at 2 MCr/dT = 500 dT & 1000 MCr

@ TL 12 = 1000 dT & 1500 MCr
@ TL 13 = 500 dT & 1000 MCr
@ TL 14 = 475 dT & 1100 MCr
@ TL 15 = 450 dT & 1250 MCr

There might be an economic reason to prefer a TL 13 drive over the TL 15 version.