Traveller Fantasy RPG
- Thread starter tbeard1999
- Start date
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
The main reason I suggest expanding it is that we need some room in the scale for die roll modifiers.
The presence of printing presses would probably be a function of tech levels (which would determine if the printing press has been invented) and Manufacturing (which would determine how many printers there are). In my opinion, some degree of literacy should be assumed. I'm skeptical that a civilization would likely progress beyond ~2000 BC technology without some form of literacy.
Last edited:
Oh? What kind of DMs? Please explain.
That sounds reasonable. My question is about the scope of literacy - how many people are literate, and of those that are, how literate are they, meaning how many are fully literate (as in can read anything) and how many are only semiliterate (as in can read their names, and know their letters, but aren't that handy otherwise).
Yes, which shows the possibility. But a primary consideration is the commonness of printing!
It might be common in any Fantasy Traveller thing, at least enough for people to know how to read (sort of using that as a factor in schooling).
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Since I came up with this on the fly, I haven't really worked tech levels out. However, CT does give some useful guidelines. Here's my first shot:
Roll 1d6.
+4 if Trade A
+2 if Trade B
-1 if Trade D
-2 if Trade E
+2 if Feudal Technocracy, Representative Democracy, Participating Democracy,
+1 if Balkanization, Civil Service Bureacracy, Impersonal Bureaucracy
+2 if Manufacturing 6+
+1 if Culture 6+
+1 if Population 8+
-1 if Population 5-
-2 if Population 3-
Tech Levels:
0 - Stone Age
1 - Early Bronze Age
2 - Bronze Age
3 - Early Iron Age
4 - Iron Age
5 - Early Medieval
6 - Medieval
7 - Late Medieval
8 - Renaissance
9 - Age of Sale
A campaign-dependent variable would be the age of the culture. A very old and stable culture might get a +1 or +2, although I'd also limit the maximum tech level of such cultures to 5 or so (like China, such cultures tend to become hidebound and uninterested in technological development).
Regarding literacy, well, you certainly *could* have a literacy rating that would indicate the relative degree of literacy among the population. Positive modifiers would be tech level (a dependent variable problem, since high literacy would generally improve technology and vice versa), high Culture and certain government types (bureaucracies, democracies). The question is whether the literacy ratio is important enough -- in the game -- to include in the UPP. Or to put it another way, would you remove Magic, Culture or Manufacturing to include literacy ratio?
Last edited:
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I think when most folks refer to a printing press, they are thinking of the movable metal-type press developed by the Koreans and a bit later by Gutenburg. The Chinese woodblock presses required far too much effort to "set" a page and therefore failed to create a "cheap book" revolution. The porcelain movable type presses invented in China ~1000 AD were better, but the porcelain wasn't rugged enough. So I'd consider *useful* printing presses to be an early medieval tech level item.
And of course, mere invention of something isn't terribly important. What's important historically is the *use* to which the invention is put. That makes it dubious to merely rely on "tech level" to determine what's in use. I'd suggest that tech level should be viewed as a *prerequisite* for whether an innovation exists. For instance, the Chinese had gunpowder for hundreds of years before making cannon. The West, on, the other hand, built cannons very soon after getting gunpowder. The generally stable Chinese culture had little need for new weaponry (but developed firearms when such a need arose), while the embattled West was perpetually on the lookout for better weaponry.
Last edited:
Moveable type was hard to set up in china not due to the methods used, but the language, which has over 2000 characters in common use.
Further, Gutenburg's press (remarkably similar to some 2000 year old wood-type presses of china) didn't create a cheap book, either. It created an expensive but affordable one.
Underwear, now THAT created cheap books. (Worn out underwear was, according to several sources, the primary source of cloth fiber for useful printing papers! Now, however, most cloth fiber for books is new.)
Even so, moveable type is doable at TL 1. TL2 for metal...
Further, Gutenburg's press (remarkably similar to some 2000 year old wood-type presses of china) didn't create a cheap book, either. It created an expensive but affordable one.
Underwear, now THAT created cheap books. (Worn out underwear was, according to several sources, the primary source of cloth fiber for useful printing papers! Now, however, most cloth fiber for books is new.)
Even so, moveable type is doable at TL 1. TL2 for metal...
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Maybe so, but I'm not sure that I'd make the tech level of an item dependent on when it can be manufactured. I've read claims that the Romans could have made effective firearms, had they possessed gunpower (which could be made in Roman times). But I don't think that I'd make firearms available at a tech level equivalent to 0 AD. I suspect that most primitive innovations could probably have been made much earlier, if the idea and need had existed.
"Cheap" is a subjective term. Compared to handwritten books, movable-type printed books *were* cheap. In any case, Gutenburg's independent invention of the movable metal type press triggered an information revolution by making information far more affordable to far more people.
The Chinese presses did not, for several reasons. First, as you note, the Chinese language wasn't very anenable to moving type presses (although the Chinese *did* invent the porcelain movable type press and the Koreans invented a metal movable type press). Second -- and I think that this was most important -- the conservative Chinese culture generally limited the use of printed products to the aristocracy (although prof. William McNeill and others claim that the Chinese printing press did lead to an expansion of the aristocracy).* Third, woodcut presses did not sufficiently lower the cost due to the labor involved in creating the plates. Porcelain presses did not lower costs enough because the porcelain wasn't rugged enough (and it may have also been expensive to produce).
Agreed re: cloth and paper. One of the more interesting experiences I had was going through the rare books collection of my law school's library. I was shocked at how white the paper was on 600-1000 year old books. I was told this was due to the fact that old paper was made from linen, not wood pulp.
Hey, I like that one.
Brass or copper moveable type was doable at TL2; had it been done (the greeks had the know-how, but not the motivation, and have, with the various accents, about 60 characters, a reasonably small type set. It was quite doable... but they lacked a uniform writing surface (Papyrus was in egypt, and can be smooth enough to print upon; they instead used parchment, which generally isn't uniform enough for printing).
TL breaks down at the low end due to prerequisite technology trees.
The press, even with moveable type, is low TL. (1-2)
Paper or papyrus is low TL (1-2)*
reasonable writing systems are TL-free... Etruscan or futhark would work...
Having them all in the same place and time? Priceless.
As to the chinese... there are 2000+ year old medical texts, printed by press. The chinese seemed to use the printing press less for "literature" and more for dispersing "imperial standards" from what I've seen. It worked. Quite well, apparently. It all depends upon the nature of the setting, and the society.
*Rice paper or other starch paper can be made by any population with the ability to grind and boil grains and make a smooth cloth. I've made oatmeal paper; it works quite well. Press a thin layer of heavily boiled fine-ground oat flour mush between two sheets of cloth, then let dry. Peel the cloth carefully. It's labor intensive until automation... and still "expensive" but not like hand-copied books.
TL breaks down at the low end due to prerequisite technology trees.
The press, even with moveable type, is low TL. (1-2)
Paper or papyrus is low TL (1-2)*
reasonable writing systems are TL-free... Etruscan or futhark would work...
Having them all in the same place and time? Priceless.
As to the chinese... there are 2000+ year old medical texts, printed by press. The chinese seemed to use the printing press less for "literature" and more for dispersing "imperial standards" from what I've seen. It worked. Quite well, apparently. It all depends upon the nature of the setting, and the society.
*Rice paper or other starch paper can be made by any population with the ability to grind and boil grains and make a smooth cloth. I've made oatmeal paper; it works quite well. Press a thin layer of heavily boiled fine-ground oat flour mush between two sheets of cloth, then let dry. Peel the cloth carefully. It's labor intensive until automation... and still "expensive" but not like hand-copied books.
Arthur Denger
SOC-12
This is a fascinating thread!
Historically, the vast unwashed multitudes were illiterate and largely uneducated until at least TL5, though the printing press would have appeared one tech level earlier. Only the ruling class, the (relatively small) mercantile class, and members of the bureaucracy (clergy) would have had the skill of literacy. The reasons were twofold:
(1) you don't need to read to plant and harvest crops, and
(2) an educated populace would be considered a threat to the ruling class' power base.
I would submit that the way to handle literacy in a low-tech milieu would be to make initial education very low, and increase it as a function of advancement based on class and career tables. Certainly, the nobility would be educated as well as literate; so would priests and scholars, and to a lesser extent, merchants. But these individuals would comprise a very small minority indeed, of the total populace.
Arthur Denger
SOC-12
At first I gagged on the suggestion to expand the TL chart. But if I want to re-use as much of Traveller as possible, it only makes sense to keep TL on the 0-15 scale. Divide by four to map it to sci-fi Traveller.
So then, for example, Regina might be interpreted like this:
A788899-A A
Market quality 'A'. Excellent place to buy or sell.
Rules directly over seven other cities.
The 'atmosphere' is that of a highly cultured city.
Is on a notable peninsula (80% surrounded by water).
Population in the tens of thousands.
Run by an impersonal bureaucracy.
Very strict about weapons. The "law enforcers" tend to be bullying thugs, too.
Tech Level is 10 (so Traveller TL = 2.5 -- It's halfway to TL3).
There's two bases as well:
* Military. In this case, it doubles as a naval port as well. Fortifications assumed.
* Courier. Inter-city courier services are available here, for the right price.
So then, for example, Regina might be interpreted like this:
A788899-A A
Market quality 'A'. Excellent place to buy or sell.
Rules directly over seven other cities.
The 'atmosphere' is that of a highly cultured city.
Is on a notable peninsula (80% surrounded by water).
Population in the tens of thousands.
Run by an impersonal bureaucracy.
Very strict about weapons. The "law enforcers" tend to be bullying thugs, too.
Tech Level is 10 (so Traveller TL = 2.5 -- It's halfway to TL3).
There's two bases as well:
* Military. In this case, it doubles as a naval port as well. Fortifications assumed.
* Courier. Inter-city courier services are available here, for the right price.
Last edited:
So the maximum TL is 16? Or is it 20?
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I'd thought about a "diversity" profile, which would establish the percentage of the population that is comprised of the most populous race in the setting (default would be human). The profile would be called Homogeneity and the roll would be something like 2d6+7-Culture, with Trade A giving -2 and Trade B giving -1. Maximum value is A, which is virtually 100% human/main race. 9 is 90%, 8 is 80%, etc. This would give some idea of the frequency of non-main races, though it wouldn't break out the percentages of each race (I can live with this; that's really beyond the scope of the UPP). An average result would be 70% human/main race.
I guess the real question is how many digits can the fantasy UPP be without become too tedious? I personally like 8 digits, but 9 or 10 would be okay, especially if they were broken up by dashes into readable chunks.
A123-4567-7
Trade (Roll on starport table; X=E)
Population (2d6-2)
Government (2d6-7+Population)
Law Level (2d6-7+Government)
Magic (2d6-7+Population)
Manufacturing (2d6-7+Population)
Culture (2d6+7-Law Level)
Homogeneity? (2d6+7-Culture [-2 if Trade A; -1 if Trade B])
Tech Level
Roll 1d6.
+4 if Trade A
+2 if Trade B
-1 if Trade D
-2 if Trade E
+2 if Feudal Technocracy, Representative Democracy, Participating Democracy,
+1 if Balkanization, Civil Service Bureacracy, Impersonal Bureaucracy
+2 if Manufacturing 6+
+1 if Culture 6+
+1 if Population 8+
-1 if Population 5-
-2 if Population 3-
Tech Levels:
0 - Stone Age (CT TL 0)
1 - Early Bronze Age (CT TL 1)
2 - Bronze Age (CT TL 1)
3 - Early Iron Age (CT TL 1)
4 - Iron Age (CT TL 2)
5 - Early Medieval (CT TL 2)
6 - Medieval (CT TL 2)
7 - Late Medieval (CT TL 2)
8 - Renaissance (CT TL 3)
9 - Age of Sale (CT TL 3)
Last edited:
Dunno. The main caveat I was thinking is that the employment of electricity would be banned, regardless of TL. Again, I dunno for sure.
Mmmm, I think that I would be more comfortable if you merely ban the building, generation and widespread use of mechanically generated electricity - magically generated electricity can be done (though again, that brings things close to the D&D Eberron setting*). Banning the physics which say that electricity can be generated by mechanical means makes me uncomfortable.
* Eberron and similar settings may be good to some, but that's not quite the kind of fantasy setting I want; Greyhawk would be more more my style. (Mind, if you do want something like Eberron, go all out for magically generated electricity.
)
