Consolidated TNE Errata
- Thread starter DonM
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snrdg082102
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Hello Valdika,
Since the TNE universe is recovering for the MT Civil War my best guess is that the technology used to concstruct compact CT/MT Emergency Life Support got trashed, which has resulted in somethings being larger than before. Of course I haven't used TNE FF&S to build a ship in a long time.
Since the TNE universe is recovering for the MT Civil War my best guess is that the technology used to concstruct compact CT/MT Emergency Life Support got trashed, which has resulted in somethings being larger than before. Of course I haven't used TNE FF&S to build a ship in a long time.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
I hate it when that happens
, but, I'm sure it'll turn back up somewhere.:devil:Hey, couldn't resist...
I'm liking the Extended Accommodations. Great for troop transports!
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Thanks for the incite. I wonder though. A 1dt "bunk" can handle 3 people in 8 hr shifts which would imply a max life support od 1/3dt (assuming the entire bunk was life support) possible if they are fold down pipe racks?
I just recently purchased FFS so am not yet familiar with it yet. Mostly I'm adding shops, labs, sickbays AutoDoc and double occupancy small staterooms to CT military ships. That and scout exploration ships. Fun so far.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Hello Vladika,
The nearest real world source on bunks for starships that I can think of is the Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual OPNAVINST 9640.1B which can be found at http://www.habitability.net/ . The site is the USN Shipboard Habitability Improvement Program.
I've based my concept of what a Traveller bunk is like on my experience while serving on four submarines, one tender, and barracks in the USN. Off the top of my head, the manual is more accurate, my bunk was usually the bottom or middle of a tier. The bunk was about 74 inches long, about 30 inches wide, and had about 30 inches of clearance from the top of the mattress to the bottom of the bunk above mine. At the head of the bunk was an air vent. Attached from the bunk pan above was a small light at the head of my bunk and a small locker near the foot.
Having personnel sharing the same bunk, also known as a rack, was called hot racking while I was in.
Join the club, when I retired from the USN in 1995 I began picking the Traveller stuff I missed and other systems like BattleTech, Renegade Legion, SpaceMaster, and several others.
The nearest real world source on bunks for starships that I can think of is the Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual OPNAVINST 9640.1B which can be found at http://www.habitability.net/ . The site is the USN Shipboard Habitability Improvement Program.
I've based my concept of what a Traveller bunk is like on my experience while serving on four submarines, one tender, and barracks in the USN. Off the top of my head, the manual is more accurate, my bunk was usually the bottom or middle of a tier. The bunk was about 74 inches long, about 30 inches wide, and had about 30 inches of clearance from the top of the mattress to the bottom of the bunk above mine. At the head of the bunk was an air vent. Attached from the bunk pan above was a small light at the head of my bunk and a small locker near the foot.
Having personnel sharing the same bunk, also known as a rack, was called hot racking while I was in.
Join the club, when I retired from the USN in 1995 I began picking the Traveller stuff I missed and other systems like BattleTech, Renegade Legion, SpaceMaster, and several others.
that's 1.89x0.76x0.76m...
1¼ x0.5 standard deck squares
3/8x1 TNE deck squares.
So, you can have a rather nice layout of 5 squares long, 2 wide, holding 8 stacks, up to 4 racks high, with a 4.5' hallway down the middle. Yeah 5 Td of bunkroom for 32 bunks... leaving 27 Td for other facilities for them. Not bad for Jr. Enlisted. Heck, cut it in the middle with a partition, and make it two 16 man bunkrooms. And you're STILL more spacious than a boomer (and can slide in another 8 racks on the center partition).
Heck, a 2m x 2m room can easily be four racks and two desks, plus some room to work out, for TNE... yeah, a 1Td bunkroom for 4 guys, with 2 shared desks, and 3Td elsewhere to spend.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Howdy aramis
Your forgetting that my dimensions were approximations based on old memories. I recommend checking out the manual associated with the link provided earlier. Here is a tidbit for the Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual OPNAVINST 9640.1B:
3.2.5.1.1 Vertical unobstructed clearance above mattress top: 20 inches for crew/troops, 23 inches for CPO/SNCO, 23 inches for officers assigned to three-high berths, and 25 inches for officers assigned to two-high berths. In submarines, hull curvature may reduce the outboard vertical clearance above mattresses for berths fitted along the shell.
3.2.5.1.2 Unobstructed secondary passage width at berth tier ends: 30 inches (18 inches for submarines). The term "tier" as used herein denotes the berth structure of two, three, or four high berths.
3.2.5.1.3 Unobstructed passage width along accessible side of berth: 27 inches (18 inches for submarines).
3.2.5.2 Distance from the underside of the bottom berth mattress to the deck shall be not less than 6 inches, except submarines shall be 2 inches.
3.2.6 Berths. The following features shall be included for each berth except surge berths and as noted:
3.2.6.1 One light per berth.
3.2.6.2 Full privacy partitions between berths and at ends of berth tiers where opening onto passageways.
3.2.6.3 Privacy curtains for each berth, except officer single berths.
3.2.6.4 HVAC terminal within each berth cubicle.
3.2.7 Space Considerations. Berths shall be oriented primarily fore-and-aft; however, athwartship berthing may be used where the compartment arrangement is improved. Where the athwartship orientation is used, it shall be limited to not greater than 30 percent of the berths per compartment.
3.2.7.1.2 In surface ships, berth tiers shall be arranged in cubicles accommodating six or fewer persons per cubicle.
3.2.7.1.3 In surface ships, ten percent of berth tiers in berthing spaces with 15 or more persons shall be sized to fit an 80 inch long mattress. All other berths shall accommodate at least a standard 76 inch mattress. In submarines, thirty percent of berth tiers in berthing spaces shall fit a 76 inch mattress and all other berths shall accommodate at least a 72-1/2 inch mattress.
I severed on the boomers SSBN 610 Thomas Edison, 635 Sam Rayburn, and 636 Nathanael Greene, one fast boat SSN 591 Shark, and the tender AS 31 Simon Lake. On the boomers the berthing space for enlisted held most of the E6 and below crew, CPO quarters, and in the Missile Compartment. About two thirds of the crew slept in the berthing compartment.
On the Shark, which after being on boomers was a bit tight, my bunk had the foreword capstan motor housing obstruction some of the vertical clearance.
The Simon Lake was a hotel by comparison, even with 6 bunks to a tier. Depending on where the berthing compartment was placed determined how many bodies got stuffed in the space. During my tour I was in two compartments the first had about 60 bunks, a head, and a small common area.
Trident SSBNs, never served on one, went to a bunk room of 4 crew members for enlisted. On the old boomers I was on the CO and XO had a single stateroom and shared a head. The rest of officer country shared three person staterooms, two compact desks, and a fold down sink. I could be mistaken about the sink.
that's 1.89x0.76x0.76m...Originally Posted by snrdg082102
The bunk was about 74 inches long, about 30 inches wide, and had about 30 inches of clearance from the top of the mattress to the bottom of the bunk above mine.
1¼ x0.5 standard deck squares
3/8x1 TNE deck squares.
So, you can have a rather nice layout of 5 squares long, 2 wide, holding 8 stacks, up to 4 racks high, with a 4.5' hallway down the middle. Yeah 5 Td of bunkroom for 32 bunks... leaving 27 Td for other facilities for them. Not bad for Jr. Enlisted. Heck, cut it in the middle with a partition, and make it two 16 man bunkrooms. And you're STILL more spacious than a boomer (and can slide in another 8 racks on the center partition).
Your forgetting that my dimensions were approximations based on old memories. I recommend checking out the manual associated with the link provided earlier. Here is a tidbit for the Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual OPNAVINST 9640.1B:
3.2.5.1.1 Vertical unobstructed clearance above mattress top: 20 inches for crew/troops, 23 inches for CPO/SNCO, 23 inches for officers assigned to three-high berths, and 25 inches for officers assigned to two-high berths. In submarines, hull curvature may reduce the outboard vertical clearance above mattresses for berths fitted along the shell.
3.2.5.1.2 Unobstructed secondary passage width at berth tier ends: 30 inches (18 inches for submarines). The term "tier" as used herein denotes the berth structure of two, three, or four high berths.
3.2.5.1.3 Unobstructed passage width along accessible side of berth: 27 inches (18 inches for submarines).
3.2.5.2 Distance from the underside of the bottom berth mattress to the deck shall be not less than 6 inches, except submarines shall be 2 inches.
3.2.6 Berths. The following features shall be included for each berth except surge berths and as noted:
3.2.6.1 One light per berth.
3.2.6.2 Full privacy partitions between berths and at ends of berth tiers where opening onto passageways.
3.2.6.3 Privacy curtains for each berth, except officer single berths.
3.2.6.4 HVAC terminal within each berth cubicle.
3.2.7 Space Considerations. Berths shall be oriented primarily fore-and-aft; however, athwartship berthing may be used where the compartment arrangement is improved. Where the athwartship orientation is used, it shall be limited to not greater than 30 percent of the berths per compartment.
3.2.7.1.2 In surface ships, berth tiers shall be arranged in cubicles accommodating six or fewer persons per cubicle.
3.2.7.1.3 In surface ships, ten percent of berth tiers in berthing spaces with 15 or more persons shall be sized to fit an 80 inch long mattress. All other berths shall accommodate at least a standard 76 inch mattress. In submarines, thirty percent of berth tiers in berthing spaces shall fit a 76 inch mattress and all other berths shall accommodate at least a 72-1/2 inch mattress.
I severed on the boomers SSBN 610 Thomas Edison, 635 Sam Rayburn, and 636 Nathanael Greene, one fast boat SSN 591 Shark, and the tender AS 31 Simon Lake. On the boomers the berthing space for enlisted held most of the E6 and below crew, CPO quarters, and in the Missile Compartment. About two thirds of the crew slept in the berthing compartment.
On the Shark, which after being on boomers was a bit tight, my bunk had the foreword capstan motor housing obstruction some of the vertical clearance.
The Simon Lake was a hotel by comparison, even with 6 bunks to a tier. Depending on where the berthing compartment was placed determined how many bodies got stuffed in the space. During my tour I was in two compartments the first had about 60 bunks, a head, and a small common area.
Trident SSBNs, never served on one, went to a bunk room of 4 crew members for enlisted. On the old boomers I was on the CO and XO had a single stateroom and shared a head. The rest of officer country shared three person staterooms, two compact desks, and a fold down sink. I could be mistaken about the sink.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Flash News
The class action law suit of Sardines vs Canneries was summarily dismissed today after "Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual OPNAVINST 9640.1B (http://www.habitability.net/)" was read into evidence.
Attorneys for Sardines is quoted as saying "Of course we are disappointed in today's surprise ruling. However as the case was one of inhumane treatment, it comes as no surprise that if humans can be treated in that manner there will be little sardines can do to relieve their plight."
The PR department for Canneries United posted the following to their corporate web site. "The suit was obviously frivolous and we are happy with the courts ruling."
So, for the foreseeable future Sardines, and Seamen, will continue to endure their current conditions with no further recourse in sight.
In an apparently unrelated matter, Japanese hotel firms announced they will be further reducing the size of their "over generous" space allotments for economy business accommodations.
The class action law suit of Sardines vs Canneries was summarily dismissed today after "Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual OPNAVINST 9640.1B (http://www.habitability.net/)" was read into evidence.
Attorneys for Sardines is quoted as saying "Of course we are disappointed in today's surprise ruling. However as the case was one of inhumane treatment, it comes as no surprise that if humans can be treated in that manner there will be little sardines can do to relieve their plight."
The PR department for Canneries United posted the following to their corporate web site. "The suit was obviously frivolous and we are happy with the courts ruling."
So, for the foreseeable future Sardines, and Seamen, will continue to endure their current conditions with no further recourse in sight.
In an apparently unrelated matter, Japanese hotel firms announced they will be further reducing the size of their "over generous" space allotments for economy business accommodations.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Morning Vladika,
:rofl:
The USN consulted with sardines while designing submarines while the canneries where the advisor's for surface ships and barracks. The sardines actually suggested smaller bunks and no lockers.
The number of shows I've on television economy class would've made me feel at home on board the boats
Once again thanks for the humor.
:rofl:
The USN consulted with sardines while designing submarines while the canneries where the advisor's for surface ships and barracks. The sardines actually suggested smaller bunks and no lockers.
The number of shows I've on television economy class would've made me feel at home on board the boats
Once again thanks for the humor.
Hi,
Since this is an errata thread, I don't want to clutter it up too much with side stuff (and maybe it might be best to move some of this other side discussions on space requirements to a new thread) but if you are going to try and compare Traveller space requirements to things like modern naval requirements, you might want to make sure you address everything that might be required, like fresh water and waste water tankage, galley and mess room space plus stores requirements, as well as offices, public spaces, and other such items as well.
Since this is an errata thread, I don't want to clutter it up too much with side stuff (and maybe it might be best to move some of this other side discussions on space requirements to a new thread) but if you are going to try and compare Traveller space requirements to things like modern naval requirements, you might want to make sure you address everything that might be required, like fresh water and waste water tankage, galley and mess room space plus stores requirements, as well as offices, public spaces, and other such items as well.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
While a bit of humor was injected that was in fact the whole point. I wondered why ELBs went from 1dt to 2dt in FFS while it allowed "bunks" to house 3 people at 1dt total.
I'm still wondering just what was intended in having life support for those same 3 people be a maximum of 1/3dt each thus providing NO such services as you mentioned.
We looked to a real world possibility and it still was up in the air.
By the FFS logic I could have 3 people aboard and provide life support. If that was true, then a 4dt cabin could house 12 people without overloading basic life support.
Could you weigh in on how this was done?
I too like fresh water and waste water tankage, galley and mess room space plus stores requirements, as well as offices, public spaces, and other such items but see no way to get any of them even with a 20% overage on a deck plan.
Apparently I can use a P-38 can opener to open one can of food a day (carry on), cook it over my BIC lighter. That takes care of Galley, Mess room and Stores.
Peeing in a container might satisfy for a waste water tank, but, I'm not recycling it as fresh water...
My office would be a spiral notebook and a pencil stub I guess but there isn't going to be public spaces on the inside of this hull. You could don a Vacc Suit and go for a space walk, if there is room for one anywhere.
But, all kidding aside I do believe the 1/3dt (by the rules, if not logic) could be used in a troop transport to good effect. Still, just how many displacement tonnes are actually required for life support?
3 persons per dt live, walking and talking vs 2 persons per dt asleep in ELBs?
We return to that question. How much tonnage is require for basic life support?
MT and FF&S do not have bunks (nor staterooms) provide life support - it's specified by volume protected in as a separate step from the accomodations. The Bunk space can be presume to be the bunk, and a share in the fresher and galley.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Thanks, I'm a CT purist venturing forth into the great unknown. So where do I find life support to calculated tonnage per person aboard?
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Hello PFVA63,
Thanks for the reminder and suggestion which is probably a good idea.
TNE FF&S Book II Sub-systems Chapter 11 covers life support which subsumes most of the items listed above.
For items not specifically identified in the rules like galleys, mess spaces, offices, public spaces, etc., IIRC, is to modify a stateroom. A galley might be a large stateroom, while the mess decks might be four large staterooms.
I haven't tried to do design new components in TNE, but I have done so using the rules from GURPS Vehicles and Traveller.
Looking at the rules a galley could be considered a hull that doesn't need a bridge, j-drive, m-drive, or power plant. Of course there might be complications that makes the idea unworkable.
Thanks for the reminder and suggestion which is probably a good idea.
TNE FF&S Book II Sub-systems Chapter 11 covers life support which subsumes most of the items listed above.
For items not specifically identified in the rules like galleys, mess spaces, offices, public spaces, etc., IIRC, is to modify a stateroom. A galley might be a large stateroom, while the mess decks might be four large staterooms.
I haven't tried to do design new components in TNE, but I have done so using the rules from GURPS Vehicles and Traveller.
Looking at the rules a galley could be considered a hull that doesn't need a bridge, j-drive, m-drive, or power plant. Of course there might be complications that makes the idea unworkable.
You don't. They're per volume provided with LS. In MT, they're in the "Environment" section.
In TNE's BL, they're on page TB15. Step 8.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
TNE FF&S Book II Chapter 11 pages 77-78.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Technically MM had fingers in the dough of MT and TNE or at least licensed them to others.
Hi,
I started a new thread in the "Fleets" section where I've added some additional stuff on comparing Traveller space requirements to those for modern ships.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=422639&postcount=1
I started a new thread in the "Fleets" section where I've added some additional stuff on comparing Traveller space requirements to those for modern ships.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=422639&postcount=1
