BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
You don't even need that much. Just drop the supplies from orbit in MIRV equivalents.
Imperial Marines IYTU
- Thread starter Vargas
- Start date
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
ROFL.
Because the Navy is always there when you need them... </font>[/QUOTE]It is the Marines. How else would they get there?
Marines, regardless of history or background, regardless of country of origin, have never been a self sustaining force and always has had the Navy providing logistic support, transport and firesupport. What makes you think that the Imperial Marines would be any different?
Now IMTU, there is a branch of Marines that doesn't rely on full time Naval support, but they aren't the Classic Shipborne Marines.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Indeed. Regardless of history or background.
Apparently Marines never form garrisons in your TU. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually they do in MTU. (I posted such.) There is a Branch of the Imperial Marines that is called Ground Forces Marines and are organized specifically for that Garrison duty. (This is not a Starport Guard Duty or Embassy Duty, this is large scale garrisoning of a planet for one reason or another.) So a Planet with a nice Terra Standard atmosphere and maneuver room may actually have Mechanized Infantry and Armor Units. An Asteroid Belt Garrison will look like Fleet Marines with additional small craft and perhaps an Interdiction Tender. Those are not the Imperial Marines most citizens think about when they think about Marines.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Imperial Marines IMTU, eh? That would be pre-TNE collpase, I presume mssr, Vargas.
Like BTL, <nods> Mine were divided into three categories:
Meteoric Assault (batteldress/ Drop Capsule launched/ your classic RAH's "Starship Troopers')
Lift Assault (Combat Armored/ supported by G-carriers, or a Mother Vessel's Smallcraft
Line Marines (Combat Armored or less-Misison dependent, garrison duties (embassies & Interdictions), and supporting elements like Cbt Engineers, Forward observers, Light Indirect Fire support, to include CAS Marine FTR/ G-carrier/ Assault Shuttle pilots/ and Grav-Tank & ADA crews).
The Imperial Navy still supplied the medical corpsmen, & G-carriers/ Shuttle crews for any medevac needs, as well as orbital Fire Support (ortillery).
Like BTL, <nods> Mine were divided into three categories:
Meteoric Assault (batteldress/ Drop Capsule launched/ your classic RAH's "Starship Troopers')
Lift Assault (Combat Armored/ supported by G-carriers, or a Mother Vessel's Smallcraft
Line Marines (Combat Armored or less-Misison dependent, garrison duties (embassies & Interdictions), and supporting elements like Cbt Engineers, Forward observers, Light Indirect Fire support, to include CAS Marine FTR/ G-carrier/ Assault Shuttle pilots/ and Grav-Tank & ADA crews).
The Imperial Navy still supplied the medical corpsmen, & G-carriers/ Shuttle crews for any medevac needs, as well as orbital Fire Support (ortillery).
david.wendelken
SOC-12
Ask the Marines who had just landed on Guadalcanal where the Navy was.
They couldn't tell you.
They could, however, tell you the Navy wasn't unloading their supplies, wasn't providing fire support, and wasn't protecting their landing area from the enemy Navy.
There are bound to have been similar incidents in Imperial History. And the Marines have long memories.
IMTU....
IMC divided into 5 Operational Regimes:
1: Heavy Infantry (BDress, Gauss Rifle, Grav Belt. HW=FGMP)
2: Line Infantry (Med is CbtArmor, Light is CES; Gauss Rifle &/or Laser rifle. HW=FGMP &/or MRLMP &/or Laser Rifle)
3: Grav Armor - Tanks/Gunships, also operate the APCs/AFVs
4: Mobile Artillery - often not grav-equipped, but designed for easy transport aboard landing craft
5: Imp Marine Commandos - BDress or CES as appropriate for mission. Weapons by mission. Grav Belts frequent.
Medics and signals additional training. BD medics/signals 2nd termers.
IMC divided into 5 Operational Regimes:
1: Heavy Infantry (BDress, Gauss Rifle, Grav Belt. HW=FGMP)
2: Line Infantry (Med is CbtArmor, Light is CES; Gauss Rifle &/or Laser rifle. HW=FGMP &/or MRLMP &/or Laser Rifle)
3: Grav Armor - Tanks/Gunships, also operate the APCs/AFVs
4: Mobile Artillery - often not grav-equipped, but designed for easy transport aboard landing craft
5: Imp Marine Commandos - BDress or CES as appropriate for mission. Weapons by mission. Grav Belts frequent.
Medics and signals additional training. BD medics/signals 2nd termers.
IMTU: Mainly they act as support and cadre for the local Army forces. Armor units are spread around less and tend to be concentrated at Naval Depots
Line ("Heavy Infantry"): Battle Dress, FGMP, soft-landed, 150 per company, 50 per platoon - HQ units are part of fighting formation
Recon ("Light Infantry"): Combat w/ grav belts, FGMP, soft-landed, 100 per company
(4 companies Line+2 Recon+10 man HQ = regiment)
Mechanized: Combat, Guass Rifles w/ FGMP or collpasing round 2cm autocannon support (with Batledress-equipped support gunner) and carried in grav IFV, squads of 6 + 3 man IFV crew
Drop Troops: Battle Dress (Hvy assault version), drop capable, FGMP, 2cm Collapsing round Autocannon 1 per squad, 100 per company (5 per regiment)
Armored: 5 grav tanks per platoon, 4 platoons plus 2 HQ tanks per Company, 4 Companies + 2 HQ tanks = Regiment
Fleet: shipboard security cross-trained in shipboard duties like gunnery and damage control type skills to replace losses. Combat, gauss rifles
Line ("Heavy Infantry"): Battle Dress, FGMP, soft-landed, 150 per company, 50 per platoon - HQ units are part of fighting formation
Recon ("Light Infantry"): Combat w/ grav belts, FGMP, soft-landed, 100 per company
(4 companies Line+2 Recon+10 man HQ = regiment)
Mechanized: Combat, Guass Rifles w/ FGMP or collpasing round 2cm autocannon support (with Batledress-equipped support gunner) and carried in grav IFV, squads of 6 + 3 man IFV crew
Drop Troops: Battle Dress (Hvy assault version), drop capable, FGMP, 2cm Collapsing round Autocannon 1 per squad, 100 per company (5 per regiment)
Armored: 5 grav tanks per platoon, 4 platoons plus 2 HQ tanks per Company, 4 Companies + 2 HQ tanks = Regiment
Fleet: shipboard security cross-trained in shipboard duties like gunnery and damage control type skills to replace losses. Combat, gauss rifles
Thoughts:
Battle dress is drastically overpriced, as is combat armor ...
...for planetary defense forces. If I'm PDF, combat environment suits with chameleon surfaces are plenty cost-effective. I can support the fire team with a small combat car that serves them just as well if not better than a suit of battledress - at least the non-point-defense-equipped battledress of most Traveller games. A ram grenade kills a half-million credits in investment just as dead as a fusion gun would kill the sap in the CES. The CES-equipped trooper is not quite a man-for-man match for the combat-armored infantryman, but credit for credit I can field a force several times larger for the same cost.
Now, if I'm NOT PDF, different factors come into play. If I have to go to different worlds, if I never know what kind of atmosphere I'm going to be in - or if I'm going to have atmosphere, then the combat armor and battledress start to make sense. If I'm going to need my support shipped in from another system and then dropped to me through hostile defenses, then energy weapons start to make sense. The less that needs to be dropped to me, the better. And, if I have the combined wealth of a sector from which to fund forces and I'm choosing to invade a fixed defense, I'm going to make sure it's not a fair fight - I'll not only take the best-armored, best-defended force in, I'll make sure there are enough of them to overwhelm the locals.
The most common opponent for a Marine is not the Zhodani. 23 years passed between the Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Most of a Marine's fighting is going to be in asymetrical warfare against opponents of much lower tech: rebels of one sort or another, proxies funded by the Zhodani or Sword Worlders or just acting on their own and trying very hard NOT to directly confront the Marine forces - maybe the occasional planetary government, but most of those have learned better by now. In that environment, walking around in a suit that can stop infantry arms short of the expensive and maintenance-intensive energy weapons or the aforementioned RAM grenades, that can resist most frag hits and weather small explosive charges and AP mines, is definitely an advantage because the irregular force is going to have trouble keeping supplied with adequate stocks of the kind of arms that can defeat me.
So, my Marines are combat-armor-equipped infantry squads with a battle-dress-equipped support weapon person or two per squad. Their role is most often skirmishing with irregular forces, so their equipment reflects that - APCs mostly, or light quick combat cars. Their tactics are the tactics of the cavalry group - get there quick, engage the enemy, call in artillery and air support if the enemy takes the bait.
Battle dress is drastically overpriced, as is combat armor ...
...for planetary defense forces. If I'm PDF, combat environment suits with chameleon surfaces are plenty cost-effective. I can support the fire team with a small combat car that serves them just as well if not better than a suit of battledress - at least the non-point-defense-equipped battledress of most Traveller games. A ram grenade kills a half-million credits in investment just as dead as a fusion gun would kill the sap in the CES. The CES-equipped trooper is not quite a man-for-man match for the combat-armored infantryman, but credit for credit I can field a force several times larger for the same cost.
Now, if I'm NOT PDF, different factors come into play. If I have to go to different worlds, if I never know what kind of atmosphere I'm going to be in - or if I'm going to have atmosphere, then the combat armor and battledress start to make sense. If I'm going to need my support shipped in from another system and then dropped to me through hostile defenses, then energy weapons start to make sense. The less that needs to be dropped to me, the better. And, if I have the combined wealth of a sector from which to fund forces and I'm choosing to invade a fixed defense, I'm going to make sure it's not a fair fight - I'll not only take the best-armored, best-defended force in, I'll make sure there are enough of them to overwhelm the locals.
The most common opponent for a Marine is not the Zhodani. 23 years passed between the Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Most of a Marine's fighting is going to be in asymetrical warfare against opponents of much lower tech: rebels of one sort or another, proxies funded by the Zhodani or Sword Worlders or just acting on their own and trying very hard NOT to directly confront the Marine forces - maybe the occasional planetary government, but most of those have learned better by now. In that environment, walking around in a suit that can stop infantry arms short of the expensive and maintenance-intensive energy weapons or the aforementioned RAM grenades, that can resist most frag hits and weather small explosive charges and AP mines, is definitely an advantage because the irregular force is going to have trouble keeping supplied with adequate stocks of the kind of arms that can defeat me.
So, my Marines are combat-armor-equipped infantry squads with a battle-dress-equipped support weapon person or two per squad. Their role is most often skirmishing with irregular forces, so their equipment reflects that - APCs mostly, or light quick combat cars. Their tactics are the tactics of the cavalry group - get there quick, engage the enemy, call in artillery and air support if the enemy takes the bait.
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Shock troops used to secure landing zones and provide security for the navy. They are the IN's army, being ferried along with individual ships, battle-groups or whole fleets, though not all ships would have a contingent of marines.
Bigger ships, large class destroyers and above would have marines. Low tonnage combat vessels would use ship's crew for security.
p.s. truth be told, however, as mentioned earlier in the thread back in 2007, when the battledressed marines arrived, it was usually an end all to whatever engagement was happening, unless they were part of the battle to begin with. Our players mostly saw them in the role as starport security, and even then only for major installations that the navy might frequent, or ports that were either strategically or economically vital.
Bigger ships, large class destroyers and above would have marines. Low tonnage combat vessels would use ship's crew for security.
p.s. truth be told, however, as mentioned earlier in the thread back in 2007, when the battledressed marines arrived, it was usually an end all to whatever engagement was happening, unless they were part of the battle to begin with. Our players mostly saw them in the role as starport security, and even then only for major installations that the navy might frequent, or ports that were either strategically or economically vital.
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The baddest of the bad. Came in several flavors: Marine Regiments, Commando Groups, Ships Marines, and Starport Defense. Larger formations were available, but not common, with the most commonly encountered was the Starport Defense Unit (a company +) size defense force for Class A and B starports. Also the Ships Marines, usually on a destroyer or frigate/corvette class vessel showing up to put a crimp in the players attempts at mayhem.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
One way to look at this is to decide what the Marines won’t do.
They won’t provide ortillery support because that’s the Navy’s remit. They won’t provide long term occupation or prolonged all-out battle capacity because that’s the Army’s remit. They won’t provide pinpoint raids on intel targets because that’s the Commandos’ remit. They won’t provide substantial air-support because that’s the Air Force’s remit.
So what’s left?
Well, they will probably have some of the above capacity, but...
IMTU the Marines have two primary roles.
1. Ships Troops. Marines provide security details aboard ships and garrisons for dirtside naval installations. In this role their hardware requirements are minimal. CES and Gauss Rifle are most likely, with heavier backup on call, of course.
2. Shock Troops. Marines are a rapid-deployment unit carried by the navy for the primary purpose of securing beach heads dirtside. They are shock troops to fly the flag and announce to the world in question ‘put your pop-guns away, boys, the Imperium is here!’ They will carry sufficient firepower and mechanised backup to ensure that a beach head is taken against expected resistance, and will have enough staying power to secure and occupy a safe landing zone for the real invasion force several weeks or months later when they can arrive from the nearest base.
Sometimes a full-scale invasion may not be necessary - the arrival of the Marines might be enough to quell the unrest, but even then, an occupation force may be arriving in a few weeks time, and the Marines will be tasked with keeping the peace until then.
Hence, they will be armed and armoured to an elite grade, probably BD/CA, they will have ‘blitzkrieg’ vehicles capable of mounting a successful initial attack and of carrying out ongoing raids to clear insurgents. These will include heavy armour, troop carriers, tactical artillery and air-superiority craft, and there will be a strong ‘watching brief’ to ensure the beach head is not closed off by retaliatory strikes, so recon drones etc will be in demand and there will need to be sufficient force available to hold off the local armed forces until reinforcements arrive.
Of course, any sensible premeditated attack will not be carried out until the Army is ready to take over the invasion, but sometimes you don’t get the choice, and that’s when the Marines come into their own.
“We do it because we’re there!”
They won’t provide ortillery support because that’s the Navy’s remit. They won’t provide long term occupation or prolonged all-out battle capacity because that’s the Army’s remit. They won’t provide pinpoint raids on intel targets because that’s the Commandos’ remit. They won’t provide substantial air-support because that’s the Air Force’s remit.
So what’s left?
Well, they will probably have some of the above capacity, but...
IMTU the Marines have two primary roles.
1. Ships Troops. Marines provide security details aboard ships and garrisons for dirtside naval installations. In this role their hardware requirements are minimal. CES and Gauss Rifle are most likely, with heavier backup on call, of course.
2. Shock Troops. Marines are a rapid-deployment unit carried by the navy for the primary purpose of securing beach heads dirtside. They are shock troops to fly the flag and announce to the world in question ‘put your pop-guns away, boys, the Imperium is here!’ They will carry sufficient firepower and mechanised backup to ensure that a beach head is taken against expected resistance, and will have enough staying power to secure and occupy a safe landing zone for the real invasion force several weeks or months later when they can arrive from the nearest base.
Sometimes a full-scale invasion may not be necessary - the arrival of the Marines might be enough to quell the unrest, but even then, an occupation force may be arriving in a few weeks time, and the Marines will be tasked with keeping the peace until then.
Hence, they will be armed and armoured to an elite grade, probably BD/CA, they will have ‘blitzkrieg’ vehicles capable of mounting a successful initial attack and of carrying out ongoing raids to clear insurgents. These will include heavy armour, troop carriers, tactical artillery and air-superiority craft, and there will be a strong ‘watching brief’ to ensure the beach head is not closed off by retaliatory strikes, so recon drones etc will be in demand and there will need to be sufficient force available to hold off the local armed forces until reinforcements arrive.
Of course, any sensible premeditated attack will not be carried out until the Army is ready to take over the invasion, but sometimes you don’t get the choice, and that’s when the Marines come into their own.
“We do it because we’re there!”
Shadowrunner
SOC-12
I like that idea of full battle armour scaring most inhabitants and sending out the wrong message, some "hearts and minds" aspect to operations, uniforms, tactics and so on and sometimes not, cold steel and hot plasma.
I'm scratchbuilding a 15mm Marine company based on WW2 figures and finally succumbed to 25mm and have been buying Warhammer Cadians to convert for Traveller use, so this thread is quite useful for ideas, thanks. Bought some gangers and adventurer figures too, I figured in every system there would be local troops or freelancer scouts and guides attached to each main force.
I'm scratchbuilding a 15mm Marine company based on WW2 figures and finally succumbed to 25mm and have been buying Warhammer Cadians to convert for Traveller use, so this thread is quite useful for ideas, thanks. Bought some gangers and adventurer figures too, I figured in every system there would be local troops or freelancer scouts and guides attached to each main force.
Partial agreement, partial disagreement. The Air Force is a planetary government force. If you're there with the support of the planetary government, you can probably expect your marines to get close air support from the locals.
However, the effectiveness of the air arm in a world that needed marine help in the first place may not be the highest. If you want your troops backed up properly, you may need to be prepared to attach your own close air support assets to the Marine unit, so they know that the things will come when called and accurately deliver firepower where it's supposed to go and in quantities that will do some good. You might be able to accomplish that by giving the battalion a company of light grav-tanks to send where needed.
Similarly, if it's the planetary government that's the problem, then you're going to need to be able to neutralize their air assets and, again, provide for your own close air support needs.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I agree, Carlobrand.
They will certainly have some air-support capability as I mentioned, but I figure that by this TL the 'Air Force' will be absorbed into the Army and they will arrive as reinforcements along with the 'ground' forces some time later. (ie IMTU COACC is part of the Imperial Army - the organisation that deals with combat in a gravity well).
The planetary government will have its own forces that may side with or against the Marines.
They will certainly have some air-support capability as I mentioned, but I figure that by this TL the 'Air Force' will be absorbed into the Army and they will arrive as reinforcements along with the 'ground' forces some time later. (ie IMTU COACC is part of the Imperial Army - the organisation that deals with combat in a gravity well).
The planetary government will have its own forces that may side with or against the Marines.
I'd have an intermediary role between those two modeled after the Marine Expeditionary Units of the USMC, involving missions like noncombatant evacuation, personnel recovery, security operations and the like.
At TL12+, Armor and Air-Support will tend to merge due to grav-tanks/Gunships.
Slightly OT...
Aramis,
TL12 is a little late isnt it? Contra grav appears TL8, wouldn't the military be at the forefront of its users?
It's interesting reading this thread, its obvious to me that many people put a lot more thought into the military organisation side of things than I do but I wonder how many actually use active military player characters? Wouldn't the limits of military life put a major dampener on the notions of adventuring? Orders being orders...
Aramis,
TL12 is a little late isnt it? Contra grav appears TL8, wouldn't the military be at the forefront of its users?
It's interesting reading this thread, its obvious to me that many people put a lot more thought into the military organisation side of things than I do but I wonder how many actually use active military player characters? Wouldn't the limits of military life put a major dampener on the notions of adventuring? Orders being orders...
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