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Imperial Marines IYTU

Aramis,

TL12 is a little late isnt it? Contra grav appears TL8, wouldn't the military be at the forefront of its users?

It's interesting reading this thread, its obvious to me that many people put a lot more thought into the military organisation side of things than I do but I wonder how many actually use active military player characters? Wouldn't the limits of military life put a major dampener on the notions of adventuring? Orders being orders...

Major breakpoints for gravitics are TL9, TL10 and TL 12...

TL9 is the introduction of gravitic thrust. (It's a retcon from MT onward.) It's not small enough nor powerful enough for APC use, and tanks of TL 9 suck BADLY... poor armor, massive and high power draw gravitics... and big power plants.

TL 10 has LP HGrav (Power Req drops 80%, volume increases by 150%, and mass drops by 25%) and fusion small enough for an APC (Min Vol drops to 2kL from 10kL...) or effective tank.

TL 12 has the introduction of both superdense and LP LGrav. This cuts the required power by 50% and the required mass of gravitics by 33% and volume by 40%... At which point truly efective (but frightfully expensive) grav tanks show up.

TL13 drops the mass of the fusion plants by 25%... giving an improvement in performance again... allowing for much more armor mass. Or more cargo mass.
 
I'd have an intermediary role between those two modeled after the Marine Expeditionary Units of the USMC, involving missions like noncombatant evacuation, personnel recovery, security operations and the like.

IMTU, if such a task fell to the Marines because they were there (which happens a lot) one or other of the roles I mentioned would cover it.

If they're just doing natural disaster evacuation or such, then the 'ships troops' could handle it. If they needed a little more 'pizzaz', then a heavier unit could handle it, but simply leave most of their 'toys' in the hold.

Within a few weeks a dedicated Army or civilian task force would take over, so it's not really worthwhile creating a special branch of the Marines to cover such situations IMTU.
 
IMTU, if such a task fell to the Marines because they were there (which happens a lot) one or other of the roles I mentioned would cover it.

If they're just doing natural disaster evacuation or such, then the 'ships troops' could handle it. If they needed a little more 'pizzaz', then a heavier unit could handle it, but simply leave most of their 'toys' in the hold.

Within a few weeks a dedicated Army or civilian task force would take over, so it's not really worthwhile creating a special branch of the Marines to cover such situations IMTU.

If it's specialization that is wanted then you need specialization in different kinds of natural disasters, not just in generic "natural disasters" as generic natural disasters(like generic "war" for that matter) is an abstract concept. As each world has it's own environment, special personal for natural disasters would be fielded at the planetary level with some perhaps raised by the subsector duke.

Hospital ships and the like, of course can serve both military and civilian needs.
 
Imperial Marines IMTU more resemble the Imperial Guard regiments (almost exclusively heavy battle dress and very expeditionary in character, intended to attack and destroy the enemy but not hold onto captured territory - that's the Imperial Army's job) than the canon Striker II TOE. Which I think itself only superficially resembles 21st century US Marines general expeditionary unit sense, which is vague enough to also apply to the 1st Century BC Marian Roman Legion (without auxilia), as well.

Battle dress itself fits in a special category of it's own between that of AFV and infantry. For the Imperial Marines, they are definitely more of an APC/trooper carrier with Grav Tanks as heavy fire power support element than the Grav Tank emphasis of the Imperial Army with the IFV-carrying supporting infantry used by the Imperial Army.

The Imperial Marine Task Force's Grav Tanks merge the capabilty and firepower of the US Marine Expeditionary Forces tanks, fixed wing, and rotary wing support while the Meson Artillery more obviously fully replaces the CPR artillery.

I'd differ (or elaborate) from Aramis' in TL9 gravitics are really more of a replacement for rotary wing than moving into the AFV realm, where ETC/CPR armed tracked vehicles armored with CI continue much like enhanced TL8 armored vehicles.

As counterpoint to the Imperial Marines, I took the heavy battle dress concept more towards Heinlein's Mobile Infantry with the Knights of St George where the Knights themselves use Heavy Battle Dress that mount mini-tac-nuke launchers and rocket packs to the grav belted Battle Dress and use gauss weaponry for close in work and eschew the use of high energy weapons common to the Imperials. Since individual Knights were more mobile and didn't use vehicles for transport, they made heavier use of Grav Tanks instead of the Imperials use of either APC or IFV, which generally retain ETC CPR , which is often more effective than high energy weapons (though that's more game system specific to FF&S and FFS2 than some others).
 
No longer a contributor to this board.
 
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I've found this a fascinating discussion.

Let me say that I have no direct military experience - but have studied the military history (and unit organisations and performance) of the 17th, 19th and 20th centuries, and reckon that I am probably as well placed as most to try to predict what future military history might look like.

It seems to me that the important thing is to appreciate that there are, and always will be, two essentially different kinds of offensive military operation which, for convenience, I shall term the RAID and the INVASION.

In a raid, the object is to insert your troops, carry out some specific mission, and extract your troops again at the end of it. In an invasion, your objective is to take and hold your enemy's real estate and divert its resources to your benefit rather than those of your enemy; and to achieve this you will need to eject, destroy, or disarm the military forces which are available to your enemy to defend it (or, most likely, some combination of all three) - following which you look to establish an army of occupation sufficient to prevent renewed resistance and keep the civilian population subdued to your will; and establish a civilian administration sufficient to harvest the resources that the territory has to offer and turn them to your advantage.

I imagine that in interplanetary and interstellar warfare, raids will always be the preserve of the Marines. They require close co-operation with the Navy (whose job it is to inserts the troops, and subsequently to retrieve them) and this is what the Navy does. Hoever, every raid is unique in terms of objectives, size of force required, and skills and equipment called for: and I therefore envisage raiding forces being ad-hoc organisations, put together with whatever resources are available at the time. In practice, these will frequently be the organic marines units carried aboard the navy's fighting squadrons; and IMTU it goes without saying that these units train not only in offensive and defensive boarding actions, but also in working with the marines contingents from other ships of their squadrons in raiding operations.

Turning, then to invasions - it seems to me that the role of the marines is to be the spearhead units, establishing the initial planetary bridgehead. I envisage this being a role which combines elements of both the USMC at Guadalcanal, and the German fallschermjaeger at Crete or the British and American paratroops in Operation Market Garden. They need to get down fast, they need to sieze and hold a piece of ground sufficient to bring in the subsequent surge of Army personnel required for a breakout; and the Army then take over for the breakout and subsequent fighting operations.

IMTU the principal "mud marines" unit is the Assault Division. This consists of a Light Brigade and two Regular Brigades. The Light Brigade is the most interesting, as it is the unit which is "on point" on any planetary assault. Its objective is to get down and establish a secure perimeter into which the two Regular Brigades of the division can deploy. It is not expected to do too much fighting because the idea is to establish the perimeter AWAY FROM any opposing troop concentrations. Its job is to overwhelm the defences of the chosen perimeter / deployment area, and hold until relieved.

The Light Brigade consists of three battalions, which are all released from orbit and descend in their own particular manner using gravitic devices. They do not use armoured gravitic vehicles - these come in with the Regular Brigades. The Light Brigade is unarmoured, and is protected in its descent by the Marines Fighter Squadrons carried by the assault ships, and by the element of surprise / recoil from initial operations aimed at suppressing defensive aerial capability. And of course, until they descend and establish their initial perimeter, the defenders don't know WHERE on the planet they are aiming to deploy, and so cannot really defend effectively against the initial landing because "to defend everywhere is to defend nowhere".

The three battalions of the Light Brigade are the Jump Troop Battalion (equipped with vacc suits and grav belts, which descend as a swarm, much as paratroops do); the Speeder Battalion (which is the Assault Division equivalent of the German motorcycle battalions of WWII - fast but very lightly armoured and equipped - using their vehicles for mobility but fighting on foot) and the Air/Raft Battalion - which is much the same in concept as the Speeder Battallion but with a different balance of mobility to manpower, and which has a number of heavy support air/rafts with VRF gauss guns on pintel mounts to lay down supporting fire as necessary.


Even with the availability of gravitics, I do not see the elimination of ground combat between infantry and their supporting units. It is ground that you are trying to take or defend; and ultimately it is troops on the ground who occupy and take ground. You can move those troops around in wheeled vehicles, tracked vehicles, or flying vehicles (whether fixed wing, rotary wing or gravitic) but at some point they will always need to get their feet back on the ground and that is how they will do most of their fighting. Advances in the manner of transportation, and the armouring and arming of the transport, will not affect this universal truism.

I do not think that the availability of gravitics will take the battlefield off the surface and up into the sky. There is nowhere to hide up in the sky. Nowhere to protect yourself and give you an advantage over your opponent by getting "hull down". And flying craft will always be vulnerable to ground fire. The technological balance may shift this way and that - but high in the sky you can be detected. And if you can be detected, you can be shot at.

There will still be aerial combat, of course, because control of the skies will be still be essential if you are to give your ground troops air support and deny it to the ground troops. But the simple fact is, and always will remain, that it is troops on the ground alone that can control territory and divert its resources to the use of their side not the enemy. And the aerial battle will always be - as it has always been - an adjunct to the ground battle not a replacement for it. Moreover, never forget the lesson of Dien Bien Phu - air mobility can be a very double-edged sword, and can be turned against the side that uses it if they do not also maintain a sufficient presence on the ground. The VK learned this lesson and took it to heart. Did the US?

I have also given some thought to how gravitics are used defensively. Gravitics can produce positive gravity fields as well as negative ones - and it will always be possible to pack more gravitics into a stationary piece of real estate than it will in a vehicle flying over them. So I see defensive "gravity fields" being the high-tech development of the minefield.

Think about it.

You have a fortified position, which the enemy need to take out. You surround it with a ring of gravitics creating a localised POSITIVE gravity field of 3G or thereabouts. Anything trying to overfly that - whether conventional or gravitic - is going to come to earth with a bump. The only way to avoid this - assuming you know it is there - is to "go high". But at high altitude you are detectable and targetable. In this way, gravitics can protect against low-level stealth attacks.

The gravity field will also be a formidable obstacle for the attaking ground troops. It will ideally be in a cleared area with a good field of fire - a killing zone. Because when those ground troops hit it (and it may not be switched on until they are mid-way across it) they are going to wallow. It'll be like advancing through treacle. And taking them out ... well, it'll be like taking candy from a baby!

Alternatively, a NEGATIVE gravity field can play merry hell with an attacker, too. Flying low - hugging the ground to avoid detection by radar or whatever other detection devices are in use at those tech levels - you overfly a repulsive gravity field and suddenly you've popped up to an altitude of a couple of hundred metres where you can be detected and targeted. Not nice!

And as for the anti-gravity anti-personnel mine ... you tread on it, activate the repulsive gravity field, and you're thrown 50 metres into the air. You're unlikely to survive the descent from that height ... and even if you do, you're unlikely to be fit for further action. And, unlike 20th and 21st century explosive mines, these are not a single-use weapons. They can throw as many people as tread on them into the air. So combat infantry, I imagine, would need to advance behind combat engineers with gravity detectors.

Then there's the oscillating gravity field, the purpose of which is to neutralise slug-throwers and other non-energy weapons. Again, these are set in advance of your positions - and the further in advance the better so long as they are in a position where incoming bullets and other projectiles have to overfly them. If you do not know the gravity over which your projectile must fly, then you cannot aim it effectively. If the gravity oscillates, then there is no way you can know it and your bullets are going to fly wild.

Yep - the need to occupy and hold real estate would be constant; but the appearance of warfare would be significantly different.
 
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Amber, you left out the most important (politically) mission type: Garrison.
 
Now, the sort of situation I'd rather have players face in a game would be something like:

Your squadron of six non-descript Imperial naval ships just arrived in system xyzzy where the local imperious overlord has been stirring up trouble. The planet is say tech 9-10ish and the military is so-so in quality.
You can't slag the planet so you round up your 50 to 100 or so marines scattered on your ships, reinforce them with some naval ratings that can do marine-like stuff or man heavy weapons and you go down with your tech 15 weapons and make him reconsider the error of his ways.

That is more managable in a game setting and likely alot more fun than some mega battle setting.
 
... tanks of TL 9 suck BADLY... poor armor, massive and high power draw gravitics... and big power plants. ...

Give me something that flies like a helicopter and carries tank armor, and I will make life very difficult for a tech 8 opponent. It won't take the place of my ground armor, but with the proper weapons - and the introduction of point defense systems to deal with SAMs and AAMs - it will make both his air support and his ground forces quite unhappy.
 
Give me something that flies like a helicopter and carries tank armor, and I will make life very difficult for a tech 8 opponent. It won't take the place of my ground armor, but with the proper weapons - and the introduction of point defense systems to deal with SAMs and AAMs - it will make both his air support and his ground forces quite unhappy.

It won't have Tank armor. It'll be able to out armor a Helo, but it won't out-armor even a battle-taxi.
 
I just use CT's simple paragraph definitions - Army are planetary fighting forces - Marines are everywhere fighting forces who can supplement Army, but not replace them.

Looking at their skill tables in CT, they are almost identical, with the exception that Marines have Vacc Suit and Army has Air/Raft and Fwd Obsvr.

Marines do not get any Grav vehicle training (explicitly requires Air/Raft) - and Army are not trained for Battle Dress (which requires Vacc Suit).

Without Vacc training, Army supplementing the Marines is not a good idea for ship/station fighting - and Marines, who lack Fwd Obsrvr training are not directly of use for planetary or artillery bombardments.

Other than that, IMTU, Army can be dropped somewhere - but are only ever passengers ... Marines can be crew.
 
I'd be interested in other peoples' conception of how Imperial Marine units would be configured in your Traveller universe. While it's entirely in keeping with the style of the OTU, I can't help but think that a 57th century Marine battalion, for example, looks an awful like a 21st century marine unit. What do you think is missing from a true TL F setting? Should it be more like the Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers? Include robots?

Interesting question. I remember watching a test with an old TL 5 Panzerfaust against 2 soldiers (ballistic gel) behind some sandbags (machine gun emplacement.) When it hit the sand bags one of the soldiers was launched ~40' into a tree and was squashed. The other was tossed ~30' into a wall.

Basically, it wouldn't have mattered if they were in Trav combat armour. It's like shaking an egg. The shell is intact while it is scrambled inside.

IMTU Marines occupy already subdued areas. Or, will fight against low TL soldiers. Any battlefield >TL 8 is too lethal for "ground troops" to survive long.
 
It won't have Tank armor. It'll be able to out armor a Helo, but it won't out-armor even a battle-taxi.

Uh, historically "tank armor" ranged from barely enough to repel small arms to that stuff the M1 carries.

The introduction of point defense fire control at TL 9 along with grav is a game changer. It pretty much eliminates speed as a defense, rendering aircraft very vulnerable unless they're evading, and you can't bomb while evading. From that point onward, some degree of armor protection - at least enough to repel extreme-range groundfire from the most common battlefield weapons - is a necessity for airborne craft in the battle zone.

The advantage of an armored flying vehicle over a ground vehicle is that it can pick its range, remaining outside the effective range of the ground vehicle's primary gun while delivering bombs and missiles - and armor further means that man-portable missiles are less effective: infantry must use larger, more powerful missile warheads to deal with the air threat, reducing the range of the portables.

Interesting question. I remember watching a test with an old TL 5 Panzerfaust against 2 soldiers (ballistic gel) behind some sandbags (machine gun emplacement.) When it hit the sand bags one of the soldiers was launched ~40' into a tree and was squashed. The other was tossed ~30' into a wall.

Basically, it wouldn't have mattered if they were in Trav combat armour. It's like shaking an egg. The shell is intact while it is scrambled inside.

IMTU Marines occupy already subdued areas. Or, will fight against low TL soldiers. Any battlefield >TL 8 is too lethal for "ground troops" to survive long.

Traveller fails to take adequate account for blast effects, that is true. However, ground troops still have a place in the high-tech battlefield. Given chameleon surfaces and with adequate attention to cover and concealment, they are difficult to spot and serve well in the "eyes-and-ears" role, alerting fast responders of enemy incursions and acting as forward observers for indirect fire. Their role changes - with the ability of armored vehicles to fly at speeds of several hundred KPH, the idea of fixed lines gives way to a more fluid defense where infantry serve more as hidden sensors than anything else - but they still have a role.
 
Given chameleon surfaces and with adequate attention to cover and concealment, they are difficult to spot and serve well in the "eyes-and-ears" role, alerting fast responders of enemy incursions and acting as forward observers for indirect fire.

Small autonomous drones would be cheaper and FAR more efficient at that task. When you're talking TL10+ The human body makes many of these roles more expensive and less efficient.

So, that relegates them to operating armoured vehicles (not infantry at all.)
 
Small autonomous drones would be cheaper and FAR more efficient at that task. When you're talking TL10+ The human body makes many of these roles more expensive and less efficient.

So, that relegates them to operating armoured vehicles (not infantry at all.)

Going to disagree, at least under the Striker ruleset, possibly MT.

First, Striker visual spotting rules assume a human spotter, at least until the introduction of drones. The first drones capable of discriminating a target occur at TL13. Until that point, I'd say human brains are needed for spotting, either directly or via some televideo setup. And, remotely piloted scouting vehicles are vulnerable to communications being jammed or blocked by smoke unless equipped with maser comm or TL13+ laser comm; in the latter case, they still need to remain in direct line of sight of the controller (or a relay station). At/after TL13, the drone is still spotting at a -1 compared to human spotters, and neither it nor the lower tech remotely piloted scout vehicle are as versatile as a human - a human can dig a foxhole or camouflage himself to reduce his own vulnerability to spotting.

Robotics offer an alternative, but I don't have a lot of experience with that supplement. As near as I can tell, a robot capable of discriminating targets in realtime in a cluttered combat environment (spotting) would likewise be around TL 13 (which makes sense, given the drone example), and I don't think it would be as "smart" as its human counterpart until TL15. It looks like the bot would have a one-time cost 5 or 6 times the annual cost of a human soldier; there could be savings if the bot were kept more than 6 years, but I wouldn't count on that in a machine intended for the combat environment. For whatever reason, the Imperium doesn't tend to use warbots, nor do the Vargr or Solomani, and the Sword Worlders don't have the tech for an independent scouting bot capable of spotting. Only the Zhodani are known for regular use of warbots, and they need an IFF system in order to help the bot discriminate between friendly and enemy soldiers (CT Alien Module 4).

(I judge that a bot capable of surviving independently in the combat environment would have to be a warbot since it would need enough independent judgment and combat skills to tell friend from foe and defend itself against human infantry skirmishers or other bots.)
 
Oh, right, this is the IMTU forum. Well then, I agree: Small autonomous drones would be cheaper and FAR more efficient - in your TU. In my TU, which is based on the rules system, ground troops still have a place in the high-tech battlefield.

I can't actually argue with your logic. If you go by modern trends, we ought to be able to deliver pretty effective warbots by our equivalent of TL9. However, as much as I would love to go through the entire system and rewrite everything that 30 years of real-world advances has rendered anachronistic, I find that less is better when trying to persuade the guy sitting across from me to play in my version of the TU. And, replacing men with machines in a roleplaying game tends to reduce the opportunities for roleplaying a wee bit unless your players want to be the machines - which is an idea I was toying with in another forum.
 
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