TNE Flame War ;)

[jchurchill]

There just had to be one, didn't there...

Note I said "serious questions only and no accusation flinging". Which basically means "no whining about destroying Traveller" and "no screaming HERETIC! while waving pitchforks and burning torches". Is that perhaps clear now?
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I was just doing a "reverse Malefant." You like to point out what you perceive to be flaws in CT.
Now that I have seen the core rulebook for TNE I can see why it and Traveller finally collapsed.

TNE was a collection of bad writing, bad artwork, and cumbersome rules mired in a relatively limited and depressing setting. Other than that it must have been plenty of fun to play.

 

[Erik Boielle]

Well, you need to at least get Path of Tears.

The thing doesn't really get going until then.

And there are two pieces of not actually ugly art in the NPC book, so its not all bad. And having that guy do most of it did do good things in establishing a consistant look to the books. And I like the cover of the rulebook from Brilliant Lances. And the design of the power armour is kinda cool.

I don't see the depressing - you leave a trail of bodies behind you, steal everything that isn't nailed down and are still making the world a better place!

You just have to see it as an oppertunity.

God I love this argument!

 

[jchurchill]

Well, ultimately it's just a game. And it's purely subjective on my part but each incarnation of Traveller after CT just seemed to get cheesier and cheesier. [TNE being the culmination of encrusted cheese]

That cheese effect seemed -- to me at least -- to come from the ever encroaching juvenile artwork and the clumsy attempts at writing "contemporary" asides to accompany the text. T-4's Pocket Empires suffers greatly from this as well.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by secretagent:
I was just doing a "reverse Malefant." You like to point out what you perceive to be flaws in CT.
Now that I have seen the core rulebook for TNE I can see why it and Traveller finally collapsed.

TNE was a collection of bad writing, bad artwork, and cumbersome rules mired in a relatively limited and depressing setting. Other than that it must have been plenty of fun to play.

While Malenfant can defend himself, I will point out that he generally (from what I have read) tries to keep his critisms on topic and in topic.

So, if you must continue to spew your hatred and bile, please have the decency to start a new thread in which to do it.

 

[jchurchill]

So, if you must continue to spew your hatred and bile, please have the decency to start a new thread in which to do it.
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Hatred and bile? What I wrote was relatively mild and was my opinion of TNE. Having read it I can see why many people did not want to play it. I know some people think it's a terrific version of the game but I'm not one of them.

It is only a game after all.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by secretagent:
[QB]I was just doing a "reverse Malefant." You like to point out what you perceive to be flaws in CT. Now that I have seen the core rulebook for TNE I can see why it and Traveller finally collapsed.

It's one thing to point out flaws in a game. It's another to say "hey, why did you destroy the best game EVAR!".

I mean, come on. Asking "Why did anyone let you near the game in the first place?" and "what's it like to the the ultimate destroyer of a great game" (gee. I guess nobody is playing Traveller anymore, since it's so "destroyed" ) is just downright rude, incredibly whiny, and is pretty damn immature too. Particularly when I made it pretty clear at the start (since I knew there'd be people like you about) not to ask that sort of thing here.

And if you don't like it that much, why the hell are you even responding to this thread in the first place?

I started this thread just in case Dave might be lurking here. I figured if there was a list of questions here then maybe he might be tempted to post some responses if he was around. I hoped (perhaps foolishly) that since there hadn't been many anti-TNE rants lately that people had calmed down about it now enough so that this thread wouldn't be poisoned by their vitriol, but evidently I was wrong

Frankly, if he is about, I wouldn't blame him for wanting to stay away with people like you still here.

And stop trying to hide behind the "it's only a game" excuse. If you wanted to ask him about what you think are flaws in TNE, you could have done so in a much more civilised way than by saying what amounted to "You ruined the best game ever. I hate you, and I'm never going to let you forget it!".

 

[jchurchill]

"what's it like to the the ultimate destroyer of a great game" (gee. I guess nobody is playing Traveller anymore, since it's so "destroyed"
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That was a bit of sarcasm. Dave Nilson did not
"destroy" the game. To the extent that there are still people out there playing CT/MT and even TNE then the game is not "destroyed."

Whether GDW collapsed and took TNE with it or TNE caused GDW's collapse? I don't know. From what I have read here and there TNE was not a financial success and apparently many players disliked intensely when it first came out in 1993.

I have seen full scale rants from people who rank him with John Wilkes Booth and Jack the Ripper. Do I hate Dave Nilson? No, of course not. I don't know him other than through reading TNE and the RC Sourcebook. Am I a fan of his work on those projects? No, not really.

"Dave,

If you're lurking here....it's okay....all is forgiven. It's safe to come out. Look, I'm putting my pistol down on the ground and walking away from it. The madness is over. You can stop running. We know you didn't kill Traveller. It was an accident...or that one armed man did it. Either way, it's safe to come out of hiding..."

There. Is that better? Now Dave can show himself and I won't take shots at him. I can't promise for others though.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by secretagent:
That was a bit of sarcasm. Dave Nilson did not
"destroy" the game. To the extent that there are still people out there playing CT/MT and even TNE then the game is not "destroyed."

So why did you even say it in the first place? And why didn't you admit that you were "being sarcastic" earlier? Sounds to me more like you're trying to backpedal out of saying what you really thought here.

Whether GDW collapsed and took TNE with it or TNE caused GDW's collapse? I don't know. From what I have read here and there TNE was not a financial success and apparently many players disliked intensely when it first came out in 1993.

It's actually pretty well known that TNE had nothing to do with GDW closing its doors. There were a lot of other things going on - the new CCG market eating into the roleplaying market, bad sales of the GDW Desert Storm book, and other stuff. TNE's sales had nothing to do with it.

 

[jchurchill]

"And why didn't you admit that you were "being sarcastic" earlier?"

I thought it was obvious.

"Sounds to me more like you're trying to backpedal out of saying what you really thought here."

No. Why should I try to backpedal? Frankly, my dear, I don't give a shit. [Gone With the Wind, updated for 2004].

I only recently bought the TNE rulebook as an e-book within the last month. I sat down and read it and I could see why many people had problems with it. The only thing I know about the Legion of Dave Nilson Haters is what I read on these boards. I had stopped playing RPG when TNE first came out. I was vaguely aware of it as a new Traveller version but that was about it.

My impressions of TNE --

1.
The rulebook and the RC sourcebook are loaded with Dave Nilson's bad jokes and America, love it or leave attitudes [in space no less]

2. Creation of a wave of new "character classes" that add little or nothing to playing

3. A limited and relatively narrow set of gaming circumstances as opposed to CT. It looks like Hard TImes squared.

etc etc etc....

So GDW collapsed and took TNE with it. If TNE was such a terrific product why did no other company attempt to buy the rights to TNE and salvage it?

I ask you this: What about TNE appeals to you? Is it the mechanics of the rules? The setting? Dave Nilson's bad jokes and painful poetry?

If it's the rules I can understand that. The setting? I can disgree but see your point. It's the last one that I can't imagine....

 

[Malenfant]

So GDW collapsed and took TNE with it. If TNE was such a terrific product why did no other company attempt to buy the rights to TNE and salvage it?

Oh, so evidently I'm just imagining that I'm taking part in the TNE:1248 playtest here?

And that's a daft question anyway. You may as well ask why nobody tried to license CT while MT and TNE were out if that was supposedly so darn amazing.

As for what appeals to me about TNE - I like the rules, I like that there's a vast range of character options, I REALLY like the technological design, I love the setting (small, focussed, PCs make a difference in TNE vs huge, sprawling, unfocussed, PCs utterly irrelevant to anything in CT), I like the ideas (especially of an evolving AI Virus), I like that the universe is dynamic and changing in TNE as opposed to static and boring in CT, and yes, I like Dave's writing too - I like the sideboxes with alternate viewpoints and with in-character opinions, I like the humour (well, apart from the Ithklur hats), and I like the detail he goes into. I really like the moral ambiguity of the RC too, and I love the post-apocalyptic interstellar scifi setting, and I love that the technological assumptions have moved beyond the 1970s.

And really, I couldn't give a toss if it was "yanks in space". I don't notice it, and I don't care. If anything it makes the Regency more appealing because it's not using the stuffy, anachronistic, medieval model of society. The Imperium collapsed - do you really think that anything that came afterwards would just be exactly the same as before?

For me, TNE is everything that CT isn't, and it is vastly better for it IMO.

Again though - if you don't like the game that much, why are you posting here? It's completely off-topic.

 

[jchurchill]

Oh, so evidently I'm just imagining that I'm taking part in the TNE:1248 playtest here?
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That's different system --D20, isn't it? And apparently different from TNE in other aspects too?

"And that's a daft question anyway. You may as well ask why nobody tried to license CT while MT and TNE were out if that was supposedly so darn amazing."

The difference is that GDW was still on its feet and held the license to CT. Once GDW went into the tank the licenses it held were an asset it could have sold. But that question is more speculative than anything else.

.....
and yes, I like Dave's writing too - I like the sideboxes with alternate viewpoints and with in-character opinions, I like the humour (well, apart from the Ithklur hats), and I like the detail he goes into.
............

To each their own.

"For me, TNE is everything that CT isn't, and it is vastly better for it IMO."

And I have just the opposite view. That pretty much says it all. One man's trash is another man's TNE.

Thanks for the lively debate.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by secretagent:
So GDW collapsed and took TNE with it. If TNE was such a terrific product why did no other company attempt to buy the rights to TNE and salvage it?

Some one did...

I'm assuming you consistantly miss the link for TNE:1248 that tops every page on this website?

As for its popularity, you might look the the number of posts in the various specific Traveller version forums here. Outside of T20, the TNE forum has twice the posts of any other version of Traveller except T5, and it still tops the # of posts on T5 by about 1500 posts.

Hunter

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by secretagent:
Oh, so evidently I'm just imagining that I'm taking part in the TNE:1248 playtest here?
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That's different system --D20, isn't it? And apparently different from TNE in other aspects too?

Nope, it's pretty much system independent. And no it doesn't differ from the original TNE, it uses what was published and build on it. Nothing changed from what was already published.

TNE:1248 is shaping up to be a VERY popular product from everything I am seeing.


Hunter

 

[Erik Boielle]

+++++I only recently bought the TNE rulebook as an e-book within the last month. I sat down and read it and I could see why many people had problems with it. The only thing I know about the Legion of Dave Nilson Haters is what I read on these boards. I had stopped playing RPG when TNE first came out. I was vaguely aware of it as a new Traveller version but that was about it.+++++

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Again, get Path of Tears as an Ebook cause the setting doesn't get going until then.

Cause really the core book doesn't have the whole thing.

Really, you might find that you can see how staying in the same bunch of worlds making a difference and seeing things grow could be kinda cool.

--

Also, people have been taking civilisation to the savage at the point of bayonet since at least the Romans, and probably before. So it doen't have to be yanks in space, even if all the Imperial bad guys do have british accents.

 

[jchurchill]

Some one did...

I'm assuming you consistantly miss the link for TNE:1248 that tops every page on this website?
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I was mesmerized by all the bright colors...

 

[Erik Boielle]

Stop looking at the pretty colours and read Path of Tears.

It could just change your life.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
Stop looking at the pretty colours and read Path of Tears.

It could just change your life.

I doubt he'd appreciate it somehow, given his opinion of the corebook.

 

[jchurchill]

Stop looking at the pretty colours and read Path of Tears.

It could just change your life.
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I did notice your mention of Path of Tears. Thanks.

 

[jchurchill]

I doubt he'd appreciate it somehow, given his opinion of the corebook.
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You're probably right.

 

[Erik Boielle]

+++++I doubt he'd appreciate it somehow, given his opinion of the corebook.+++++

I dunno. I don't think the core book is a good intro to the cool bits.

Doesn't explain the factions and politics in the RC, doesn't show the bad guys, doesn't explain what the Longships are or have that big list of planets and things to do.

He may not like it true, especially now I've overhyped it but without looking at it (and the rest of the supplements) you arn't getting the information that I think lets people who like it like it.

And he needs to read Space Viking as well, to see what its ripping off.