RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Darn it! I missed out on all the good stuff. Shows you what happens when you duck out for a day. 
- Status
Guys seriously, that sucked as a flame war. No one even made a single death threat, and there were very few tactical profanities thrown around, my 9 year old can curse better than that... 
With all due respect to both parties, you both have good points. Aramis is right in that Mr. Nilson had a tendency to be a little flippant, probably past the point of annoyance for many people. Malenfant is correct in that the "TNE Haters" as he called them, have a tendancy to hold on to their grudges past the point of annoyance for many as well.
There is probably a good reason that there is a divide between the CT players (and it's variants) and the TNE players. I've tried to sit in on a TNE game or two, and get attitude from the TNE players about preferring "that old fogey system". When I mention TNE to old players, especially ones who had sunk a lot of time into their versions of the OTU, they genuinely feel that GDW was trying to kill off the game THEY loved. There are many people out there who never wanted GDW to mess the Imperium up the way it was done in the Rebellion, and with TNE. And the decision to not support the old universe made them especially mad, because it invalidated everything that they had worked on for years. If they wanted to use any of the new material, they would have to play in the ashes of the Imperium that they, frankly, loved.
So, while I see the reason for the anger on both sides, I think both sides are being a little bit over the top... Now feel free to flame away at me...
With all due respect to both parties, you both have good points. Aramis is right in that Mr. Nilson had a tendency to be a little flippant, probably past the point of annoyance for many people. Malenfant is correct in that the "TNE Haters" as he called them, have a tendancy to hold on to their grudges past the point of annoyance for many as well.
There is probably a good reason that there is a divide between the CT players (and it's variants) and the TNE players. I've tried to sit in on a TNE game or two, and get attitude from the TNE players about preferring "that old fogey system". When I mention TNE to old players, especially ones who had sunk a lot of time into their versions of the OTU, they genuinely feel that GDW was trying to kill off the game THEY loved. There are many people out there who never wanted GDW to mess the Imperium up the way it was done in the Rebellion, and with TNE. And the decision to not support the old universe made them especially mad, because it invalidated everything that they had worked on for years. If they wanted to use any of the new material, they would have to play in the ashes of the Imperium that they, frankly, loved.
So, while I see the reason for the anger on both sides, I think both sides are being a little bit over the top... Now feel free to flame away at me...
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
John Hamill,
Why sir, when your words ring with wisdom, tis not flame that shall be sent your way . . .
No, wait a sec, maybe you will be flamed no matter what you say. Hmmmm.
Why sir, when your words ring with wisdom, tis not flame that shall be sent your way . . .
No, wait a sec, maybe you will be flamed no matter what you say. Hmmmm.
M
Malenfant
Guest
You must have missed the unedited version.Originally posted by jwdh71:
Guys seriously, that sucked as a flame war. No one even made a single death threat, and there were very few tactical profanities thrown around, my 9 year old can curse better than that...
But hey, if you want a flame war, Larsen seems determined to start one on the Fleet board in the Barnard Star thread
. Except that I ain't biting.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Thing is though, that was a foregone conclusion since about halfway through the MT line. Even if Virus etc hadn't happened, you'd still be playing in the ashes of the Imperium - I mean, the Hard Times book is pretty er, "Hard Core"
The only way they could go back to a stable CT-like universe would be either to (a) say Virus doesn't happen, fast-forward long enough for things to rebuild, and go from there or (b) wind back the clock and say it's all not happened at all. And they ended up doing the latter, probably because that was probably the only way things could go back to "the way they were" - a "fastforwarded future" would still be a different one to what they wanted. After all, there's not much point in saying "OK, a big rebellion happened 100 years ago and everything ground down and uh... everyone got better and turned out exactly like we did before"
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
No, the Virus or other total apocalypse was not inevitable. Other things could have been done. Survival Margin, with its overarching explanation, came out at the end, before then, there was no real ending. A version of Wounded Colossus could have been inserted at this point (with TNE's GDW-in-house-mechanics), or some similar tale, and the 3I be reborn at that point.Originally posted by Malenfant:
Thing is though, that was a foregone conclusion since about halfway through the MT line. Even if Virus etc hadn't happened, you'd still be playing in the ashes of the Imperium - I mean, the Hard Times book is pretty er, "Hard Core"about things falling apart.
The Wounded Colossus is a compelling tale.
However, I don't think anything GDW did with the setting at that point could have helped, the combination of the TSR lawsuit and the advent of MTG in August 1993 were much tougher problems.
M
Malenfant
Guest
So you're agreeing with me, yes? Because I'm not saying it HAD to end in Virus, just that things had already gone to the point of some kind of collapse (through attrition, if nothing else).
Either way, it wouldn't have been the 3I that rose from the ashes though. If they'd had any sense, they'd be changing things so the same events could not be repeated, probably involving a lot of change in government at high levels.
Either way, it wouldn't have been the 3I that rose from the ashes though. If they'd had any sense, they'd be changing things so the same events could not be repeated, probably involving a lot of change in government at high levels.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
After a certain manner, yes. But only in that certain manner, and in no other.
But what kind of collapse? In what degree and extent? This is the crux of the matter so far as it concerns what I feel should have happened, as opposed to what did happen.
GDW and TNE did die. Many opine that the radical changes of TNE caused many to leave forever (but those same changes also attracted many to the fold who'd never been there before; and a suitable fraction of them, though not all, did eventually buy into the rest of the Traveller history). Those changes may have been somewhat contributory to the end, but I believe the other two factors, the TSR lawsuit (and the time it drained from GDW staff when they really needed to be doing game-maker things) and the advent of MtG were far larger factors. So much larger that they probably swamped the rest. Especially the shift in spending patterns caused by MtG, which hit every end of the RPG market like a massive battering ram. With dollars marching off into CCGs, that must have hurt badly. Very badly.
Mal, might I ask, have you ever read The Wounded Colossus?
M
Malenfant
Guest
I'm thinking along the lines of Hard Times. Things just grinding down because all the infrastructure had been destroyed in the escalating rebellion. But this time, no final weapon is unleashed, and people just end up not being able to fight even if they wanted to.
It also could have ended a lot sooner than that but stayed fragmented (like the "Death of Fools" ATU, which I can't find online anymore, but described just such a scenario)
Either one would have taken considerable time to recover from - the former more than the latter. Neither one would be the "shiny happy CT Universe" that the CT grogs would have wanted, until it did pull itself together.
That's what I've heard too - GDW closed down mostly because of those two reasons and and poor sales of the Desert Storm book that they published, which they lost a lot of money from. From what I've pieced together from people who were at GDW during the end days, the effect on the bottom line of people boycotting GDW because of TNE was not significant, at least compared to the other reasons.
Kinda. I started reading it the other day, then realised just how long it was and didn't finish it because I had to do other things. But I read the first few pages worth of it.
jchurchill
SOC-12
Malefant wrote:
"Vilani? "boring, conservative humans". Zhodani? "evil psychic commie bad guys with Turbans!" Solomani? "Jackbooted fascist thugs!", Aslan? "furry samurai!". Vargr "squabbling furry pirates!". As far as aliens go, the Traveller ones are pretty conventional - the only remotely strange ones are the K'Kree and Hivers, and even they're as identifiable as the others are ("psycho militant vegetarians" and "funny-shaped manipulators")."
There really is no need for name calling. I'm sure that each of these species, had they existed, would have their feelings hurt.
[To quote Foghorn Leghorn, "that's a joke son, I say that's a joke...]
"Vilani? "boring, conservative humans". Zhodani? "evil psychic commie bad guys with Turbans!" Solomani? "Jackbooted fascist thugs!", Aslan? "furry samurai!". Vargr "squabbling furry pirates!". As far as aliens go, the Traveller ones are pretty conventional - the only remotely strange ones are the K'Kree and Hivers, and even they're as identifiable as the others are ("psycho militant vegetarians" and "funny-shaped manipulators")."
There really is no need for name calling. I'm sure that each of these species, had they existed, would have their feelings hurt.
[To quote Foghorn Leghorn, "that's a joke son, I say that's a joke...]
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Hard Times, an excellent book and a fitting end to the MegaTraveller story-arc. Despite the tragedy all around and the dark future feel to it, there was always hope that someday soon, the various factions being unable to fight, might begin to trade with one another and form alliances to maintain order in their spaces and protect intelligent life wherever it was.
Virus completely and catastrophically stripped away that hope, making the new era a true time of new beginings. What I'm saying is that in hard times there was still the chance the Imperium could mend itself (even if only a slim chance), with TNE there was none.
The cause of the hatred is real, even I was upset with the changes of the new era, that combined with the new house rules and radically different design sequences and physical assumptions not to mention the increased compexity of the game, alienated me on not just one front, but all of them. It's no surprise but I can understand the dislike among followers of CT/MT against the TNE.
After reading these posts in the flame war, I dug out my old TNE stuff and looked at it with fresh eyes, (it's been several years) and it really is good stuff, so good perhaps that I think it may well have been ahead of its time. It's fresh and original and well thought out, yet strangely it doesn't yet feel like traveller.
I think that had the background been changed to a prior time such as the early interstellar wars with source material centered on Terra etc, people would have loved it, because the stuff that was missing from TNE such as thruster plates and small laser turrets/particle accelerator barbettes could be explained away as 'They are not invented yet'.
Such a background would have been interesting I think.
Virus completely and catastrophically stripped away that hope, making the new era a true time of new beginings. What I'm saying is that in hard times there was still the chance the Imperium could mend itself (even if only a slim chance), with TNE there was none.
The cause of the hatred is real, even I was upset with the changes of the new era, that combined with the new house rules and radically different design sequences and physical assumptions not to mention the increased compexity of the game, alienated me on not just one front, but all of them. It's no surprise but I can understand the dislike among followers of CT/MT against the TNE.
After reading these posts in the flame war, I dug out my old TNE stuff and looked at it with fresh eyes, (it's been several years) and it really is good stuff, so good perhaps that I think it may well have been ahead of its time. It's fresh and original and well thought out, yet strangely it doesn't yet feel like traveller.
I think that had the background been changed to a prior time such as the early interstellar wars with source material centered on Terra etc, people would have loved it, because the stuff that was missing from TNE such as thruster plates and small laser turrets/particle accelerator barbettes could be explained away as 'They are not invented yet'.
Such a background would have been interesting I think.
<shrugs> Personally I have a hard time seeing anything other than another Long Night out of later MT / Hard Times. Just took another look at the map on page 17 of Hard Times. Between that and skimming through the pdf just now interstellar trading outside of the Safe Areas has pretty much collapsed aside from the Doom Trade and I don’t see it returning for a very long time. With TNE / 1248 you have a much shorter period before stable interstellar trading / instellar state growth returns in the area of the 3I.
I think a failing of Hard Times, though I do like the book, is that it doesn't actually *end* MT or the Civil War and no further product was released for MT, leaving that task to TNE. I cite the recent end of the original World of Darkness as an example of a successful endcap to a game line. Even AD&D2E had an "ending" book. Interestingly the products to end both game lines had multiple endings.
MT turned out to me like a Battletech 'verse where the First Succession War kept going until the Great Houses couldn't pull back from MAD, nobody discovered Star Leauge caches, and there were no Clans. Artificially equally matched factions hammering away until the lights go out. Maybe there would have been a few pocket-empire sized remnants but that happened in the Long Night as well.
As always, YMMV.
Casey
edit-general clarification throughout
seeing anything other than another Long Night out of later MT / Hard Times. Just took another look at the map on page 17 of Hard Times. Between that and skimming through the pdf just now interstellar trading outside of the Safe Areas has pretty much collapsed aside from the Doom Trade and I don’t see it returning for a very long time. With TNE / 1248 you have a much shorter period before stable interstellar trading / instellar state growth returns in the area of the 3I.I think a failing of Hard Times, though I do like the book, is that it doesn't actually *end* MT or the Civil War and no further product was released for MT, leaving that task to TNE. I cite the recent end of the original World of Darkness as an example of a successful endcap to a game line. Even AD&D2E had an "ending" book. Interestingly the products to end both game lines had multiple endings.
MT turned out to me like a Battletech 'verse where the First Succession War kept going until the Great Houses couldn't pull back from MAD, nobody discovered Star Leauge caches, and there were no Clans. Artificially equally matched factions hammering away until the lights go out. Maybe there would have been a few pocket-empire sized remnants but that happened in the Long Night as well.
As always, YMMV.
Casey
edit-general clarification throughout
Yes, part of it was the absolute destruction of the hope for a Restored 3I.
Part of it was the change to an incompatible rules system; if it had just been Tech Architecture, or just Character Mechanics, or Just Setting.... TNE is a decent set of rules, as I said, but it was may too much change in one lump sum.
TNE drew a widely and wildly different audience, with a lot of hype before release, and even a conversion guide... Survival Margin assured us that the Regency was a holdout of Imperial Culture, and would remain there for playing CT style games.
Yes, we all expected the RQS (or something similar), and some mild changes due to the need to insulate against virus and such; No one I knew of, nor anyone I was in contact with on the WWIVnet nor usenet subs for SciFi had any clue we were going to get Yanks In Space... Nor the Empress Wave... Nor the fall of the Consulate...
But the virus, prior to Survival Margin was literally an unthinkable situation for many... no major networks, no FTL comm... And very few people had actually read about the Cymbeline Chips. (I in fact ran out and snagged a copy of that Adventure only after reading Survival Margin.)
And No, HT didn't end the MT cycle... But it had already created a new slate, one not driven by a Deus Ex Machina. adding the complete (oor nearly so) erradication of Imperial Culture, an the oh-so-short time frame, It strained the credulity on many scores, many of which were pre-DN. That the last scraps held out to the CT crowd were sntched from us by RegSB really alienated even the die hard MT fans, not to mention the CT crowd.
On its own, it's not a terribly bad situation; much akin to that in Andromeda (which, sadly, I see little appeal in, either, as a setting to roleplay in, or even watch anymore). TNE was, in its way, as alien as Traveller:2300.... and with very different gains in realism (as in not how much gain, but in which aspects... TNE went Hardware accurate, T2300 went Character Accurate... Don't get me started about TNE's damage system for Characters... or about PC's with 8+ dice of unarmed damage... Or the PC who waled up to and de-operatored a VRF gauss gun...)
Casey: I love the comparison to the Battletech Setting. Very true.
Technically, though, Survival margin was the "Ending" prouduct for MT... it came out several months earlier.
Overall, If the TNE rules had been tied to a Hard Times Part II or Restored 3I or a 4I setting, rather than Virus Wiping the Slate, in order to do in 50 years what should have taken 500... it probably would not have been quite so hard. I keep two editions to hand: MT and TNE. I like the TNE design systems (but not having to ballance SA as well...).
And I can tell you, courtesy of CORPS VDS, just why TNE didn't have the fuel use rates of CT/MT: TNE plants use radiators... CT/MT plants must vent plasma instead.
Part of it was the change to an incompatible rules system; if it had just been Tech Architecture, or just Character Mechanics, or Just Setting.... TNE is a decent set of rules, as I said, but it was may too much change in one lump sum.
TNE drew a widely and wildly different audience, with a lot of hype before release, and even a conversion guide... Survival Margin assured us that the Regency was a holdout of Imperial Culture, and would remain there for playing CT style games.
Yes, we all expected the RQS (or something similar), and some mild changes due to the need to insulate against virus and such; No one I knew of, nor anyone I was in contact with on the WWIVnet nor usenet subs for SciFi had any clue we were going to get Yanks In Space... Nor the Empress Wave... Nor the fall of the Consulate...
But the virus, prior to Survival Margin was literally an unthinkable situation for many... no major networks, no FTL comm... And very few people had actually read about the Cymbeline Chips. (I in fact ran out and snagged a copy of that Adventure only after reading Survival Margin.)
And No, HT didn't end the MT cycle... But it had already created a new slate, one not driven by a Deus Ex Machina. adding the complete (oor nearly so) erradication of Imperial Culture, an the oh-so-short time frame, It strained the credulity on many scores, many of which were pre-DN. That the last scraps held out to the CT crowd were sntched from us by RegSB really alienated even the die hard MT fans, not to mention the CT crowd.
On its own, it's not a terribly bad situation; much akin to that in Andromeda (which, sadly, I see little appeal in, either, as a setting to roleplay in, or even watch anymore). TNE was, in its way, as alien as Traveller:2300.... and with very different gains in realism (as in not how much gain, but in which aspects... TNE went Hardware accurate, T2300 went Character Accurate... Don't get me started about TNE's damage system for Characters... or about PC's with 8+ dice of unarmed damage... Or the PC who waled up to and de-operatored a VRF gauss gun...)
Casey: I love the comparison to the Battletech Setting. Very true.
Technically, though, Survival margin was the "Ending" prouduct for MT... it came out several months earlier.
Overall, If the TNE rules had been tied to a Hard Times Part II or Restored 3I or a 4I setting, rather than Virus Wiping the Slate, in order to do in 50 years what should have taken 500... it probably would not have been quite so hard. I keep two editions to hand: MT and TNE. I like the TNE design systems (but not having to ballance SA as well...).
And I can tell you, courtesy of CORPS VDS, just why TNE didn't have the fuel use rates of CT/MT: TNE plants use radiators... CT/MT plants must vent plasma instead.
Erik Boielle
SOC-12
+++++After reading these posts in the flame war, I dug out my old TNE stuff and looked at it with fresh eyes, (it's been several years) and it really is good stuff, so good perhaps that I think it may well have been ahead of its time. It's fresh and original and well thought out,+++++
Good man.
Is it just more or is Virus singled out as something that people reexamining TNE find more Hip than they used to?
(I of course was ahead of my time and always thought it cool.
)
+++++yet strangely it doesn't yet feel like traveller.+++++
Hmmm. One of TNEs less fine moments is making the blasted remains of the Imperium feel like Poland Circa 2000 post nuclear war.
I blame the art.
I reckon one ought to be able to get some really nice images and places to have fights out of a shattered imperium - cities set up in the stubs of megaskyscrapers, men in suits carrying torches seaching the shells of eighty mile long can cities burst by spinal mount fire, that sort of thing.
Like the man says, TNE 1248s best bit is adding in more travellery stuff from MegaTraveller.
Definate improvement that.
Good man.
Is it just more or is Virus singled out as something that people reexamining TNE find more Hip than they used to?
(I of course was ahead of my time and always thought it cool.
)+++++yet strangely it doesn't yet feel like traveller.+++++
Hmmm. One of TNEs less fine moments is making the blasted remains of the Imperium feel like Poland Circa 2000 post nuclear war.
I blame the art.
I reckon one ought to be able to get some really nice images and places to have fights out of a shattered imperium - cities set up in the stubs of megaskyscrapers, men in suits carrying torches seaching the shells of eighty mile long can cities burst by spinal mount fire, that sort of thing.
Like the man says, TNE 1248s best bit is adding in more travellery stuff from MegaTraveller.
Definate improvement that.
Erik Boielle
SOC-12
+++++But it had already created a new slate, one not driven by a Deus Ex Machina.+++++
But the Virus is just one in a long line of superweapons employed by the successor states to break the deadlock. One that got away.
I think thats different from blue ice falling out of the sky and blowing up the death star just before it blows up the rebel base.
+++++Artificially equally matched factions hammering away until the lights go out.+++++
Oh I don't know. In Europe the weak have tended to gang up against the strong, keeping the place a patchwork of bickering states instead of allowing one to take over.
Time were hard when Germany went up against the Soviets aswell yo.
+++++much akin to that in Andromeda (which, sadly, I see little appeal in, either, as a setting to roleplay in, or even watch anymore).+++++
That because Andromeda just isn't very good though
+++++Don't get me started about TNE's damage system for Characters... or about PC's with 8+ dice of unarmed damage... Or the PC who waled up to and de-operatored a VRF gauss gun...)+++++
I had a line of oversized shotguns to abuse the damage rules for short range blunt trauma from flechettes.
The less said about the damage rules the better. And the skill system that reduces the the effect of differences in skill levels as tasks get harder.
But the Virus is just one in a long line of superweapons employed by the successor states to break the deadlock. One that got away.
I think thats different from blue ice falling out of the sky and blowing up the death star just before it blows up the rebel base.
+++++Artificially equally matched factions hammering away until the lights go out.+++++
Oh I don't know. In Europe the weak have tended to gang up against the strong, keeping the place a patchwork of bickering states instead of allowing one to take over.
Time were hard when Germany went up against the Soviets aswell yo.
+++++much akin to that in Andromeda (which, sadly, I see little appeal in, either, as a setting to roleplay in, or even watch anymore).+++++
That because Andromeda just isn't very good though
+++++Don't get me started about TNE's damage system for Characters... or about PC's with 8+ dice of unarmed damage... Or the PC who waled up to and de-operatored a VRF gauss gun...)+++++
I had a line of oversized shotguns to abuse the damage rules for short range blunt trauma from flechettes.
The less said about the damage rules the better. And the skill system that reduces the the effect of differences in skill levels as tasks get harder.
I’m not arguing that balances of power don’t exist. However in each of those European wars some nation or alliance eventually won or at least gained enough of an upper hand to end the conflict. Powers waxed and waned, rose and fell. That’s not the case in MT, where instead the factions just continued to grind each other down. Territory isn’t gained and held by any of the factions; all sides are losing it and civilization. The hands of the authors were too visible for me in MT, just like they are for most of Battletech’s timeline. Even Battletech had a progressive arc to it though, hence the comparison of MT’s timeline to a variant BT timeline.
The Allies won WWII and brought the war to an end. In MT nobody won and the war kept on going.
Casey
Erik Boielle
SOC-12
Well, thats always going to be a problem with these things - people get attached to their faction and they don't want to see it loose, so whatcha gonna do?
However, the second world war can easily be seen as the climax of a theme in European history starting with the unification of Germany in 1870 or so (and no doubt with origins before that but like, all stories have to start somewhere).
The period contained three major European wars but only at the end did one side decide to (and have the ability to) finish it once and for all.
(It also ambled directly in to the Cold War against the soviet union.)
(And even now those pesky Germans are trying to take over Europe through a thinly disguised front organisation called the EU )
Could one see a way to map this situation on to the Wars of Imperial Succession?
Its not one conflict, but a series of conflicts as the new nations struggle to establish a pecking order.
Hell, the people who took over from Rome never managed to finish the argument. Not really.
And Britain and France were in various states of declared and undeclared war for centuries before Germany decided to have a go!
However, the second world war can easily be seen as the climax of a theme in European history starting with the unification of Germany in 1870 or so (and no doubt with origins before that but like, all stories have to start somewhere).
The period contained three major European wars but only at the end did one side decide to (and have the ability to) finish it once and for all.
(It also ambled directly in to the Cold War against the soviet union.)
(And even now those pesky Germans are trying to take over Europe through a thinly disguised front organisation called the EU
) Could one see a way to map this situation on to the Wars of Imperial Succession?
Its not one conflict, but a series of conflicts as the new nations struggle to establish a pecking order.
Hell, the people who took over from Rome never managed to finish the argument. Not really.
And Britain and France were in various states of declared and undeclared war for centuries before Germany decided to have a go!
jchurchill
SOC-12
I blame the art.
==================
Amen, brother.
==================
Amen, brother.
And the Survival Margin explanation implied a very different ending if Virus were more logical in it's spread (I mean, the SDG transponders were NOT that all-powerfully tied in, were they?) Especially since Dulinor is taking a battle fleet into Capital, and DIES THERE! This implies that, sans Virus, Dulinor would have retaken Capital.
Virus, as described, was beyond verisimilitude for a great many... It "Escapes" into Dulinor's fleet. It spreads to the ships main computers from the transponders (which in itself, to my mind, makes the SDG chip more LIKELY to be compromised than less), and can imbed itself on non-synaptic computers without SDG chips and rewrite them into Virus infected AI's...
This is why it's a Deus Ex Machina. Not that a superweapon release is any surprise, just that, in order to make sense, the Virus has to operate by Psionics, or a LOT of things changed DURING the war, but were never mentioned.
Virus, as described, was beyond verisimilitude for a great many... It "Escapes" into Dulinor's fleet. It spreads to the ships main computers from the transponders (which in itself, to my mind, makes the SDG chip more LIKELY to be compromised than less), and can imbed itself on non-synaptic computers without SDG chips and rewrite them into Virus infected AI's...
This is why it's a Deus Ex Machina. Not that a superweapon release is any surprise, just that, in order to make sense, the Virus has to operate by Psionics, or a LOT of things changed DURING the war, but were never mentioned.
- Status
