- Status
No, Mal, what you fail to realize is tht Dave was both arrogant, antagonistic, and utterly contemptable in his personal behaviour when asked questions... a null reply was among the nicer ones my circle of friends recieved when they asked him serious questions. He was obnoxious on-line, in several forae where both he and I were present. When Traveller was split between two very vehment camps, and GDW was finding that TNE had little appeal for the intended audience, but a much broader appeal.Originally posted by Malenfant:
Do people have reading comprehension problems here or something?
It's funny how Joe Fugate gets reasonable questions, but as soon as Dave Nilsen is even mentioned, out come the bile-filled TNE haters who want to piss on things...
What's even worse is that some people actually seem to have decided to make it into something personal against Nilsen himself. You especially Aramis - you seem to think you know what Dave Nilsen was thinking about everything, when in fact you don't. From the picture you paint of the man, anyone would think he was a monster. Joe had been lurking here a while - what if Dave is too? Where do you get off slagging the man off all the time? How do you think he'd feel reading some of the bile you throw up? It's utterly pathetic and totally immature.
Nilsen's tenure as TNE line editor was one of broken promises... both his own (on the TML) and those put forth by GDW staffers (both on the TML and elsewhere). Nilsen was active in starting flame wars on the TML (I triggered one or two, to be honest, and Hans and my arguments have now been ongoing for over a decade, merely having switched forae.)
I hope he knows the level of virtriol his name causes amongst so many. I honestly hope he is reading this. I made my opinion of him many years ago, and would still seriously like answers to the questions I posed... deletion per hunter's request
He and Rodger Sanger are two individuals who have had disproportionate influence on Traveller in a negative way.
I don't know what Nilsen was thinking. I do know he made it clear that questions, any questions, of why he did what he did were met with silence or vitriol. deletion per hunter's request
I guess, I know the answer now...what is the reason why Dave would be lurking? But, back to the thread...
Supplemental
a) Would there be more adventures?
b) What role did the emerging Internet play in design. When I was in Prague, I did subscribe to both the TML & X-boat and found voth listservs to be very hostile to newcomers and in tone to others?
c) Why release something like the Players Forms as a second release...surely, something more flashy would sell the line better?
d) Did you ever consider going back to any era of the Traveller universe and allow for multiple eras of play but using the TNE rules?
e) What was the relationships like in GDW? How were you treated by the Ancients or Old Ones?
f)What were the various story arcs that were not explored in any of the published products that were forthcoming in others.
g) What is all this discussion about "Jedi" in Traveller?
h) Did you ever collect any of the fanzines that were coming out and covering the TNE? Did they shift any of your ideas?
i) Where did you get your ideas and what books/themes inspired you to write TNE?
Supplemental
a) Would there be more adventures?
b) What role did the emerging Internet play in design. When I was in Prague, I did subscribe to both the TML & X-boat and found voth listservs to be very hostile to newcomers and in tone to others?
c) Why release something like the Players Forms as a second release...surely, something more flashy would sell the line better?
d) Did you ever consider going back to any era of the Traveller universe and allow for multiple eras of play but using the TNE rules?
e) What was the relationships like in GDW? How were you treated by the Ancients or Old Ones?
f)What were the various story arcs that were not explored in any of the published products that were forthcoming in others.
g) What is all this discussion about "Jedi" in Traveller?
h) Did you ever collect any of the fanzines that were coming out and covering the TNE? Did they shift any of your ideas?
i) Where did you get your ideas and what books/themes inspired you to write TNE?
M
Malenfant
Guest
EDIT: Toned down the language and removed the personal attacks as per Hunter's request.
Perhaps he gets pissed off when people like you start slagging him off. Gee, I wonder why that would happen. I can particularly imagine anyone getting defensive when people who haven't written a professional word in their lives hurl insults and slag off work that they've put a lot of time and effort into writing. He's only human, after all.
And tell me Aramis, what have you had published for Traveller? If you think you could have done any better, why didn't you submit anything yourself?
[deleted as per Hunter's request] All you ever do here when Dave is mentioned is spout your vitriol, and I bet you're only doing it because you think you can get away with it because he's not here to defend himself. Well, I'm gonna defend him in his absence.
You have serious issues, man. You look and sound ridiculous, and you're beneath contempt in my books for continuing a 10-year long vendetta and taking every opportunity to drag a decent guy's name through the dirt every time he's mentioned, just because you don't like what he wrote for a mere game. Get some perspective, get over it, and grow up.
Really, how does can anyone consider your behaviour as being anything BUT utterly ridiculous?
You wanted a scapegoat to direct all your "righteous anger" at, pure and simple. And the best scapegoat was the poor sap writing the line, who you evidently decided it was fine to attack personally at every opportunity. And STILL, you hold the vendetta, when it's all done and dusted and distant history for most sane people.
I can't even believe that you're still so consumed by your hate though - after ten bloody years. What do you do, lie awake every night trying to plot his demise? [deleted as per Hunter's request]
I mean, why are you here answering this post? Were you just waiting for another soapbox to launch your attack on Dave? If so, then kindly leave. I don't want you, or people who think like you here contaminating this thread any more.
[I find your behaviour to be utterly abhorrent] - not because you don't like TNE (because you're entitled to not like it), but because you'd stoop so low as to still continue to defame a decent guy ten years on, and make him out to be Satan incarnate when he doesn't even remotely deserve that treatment - especially over something as utterly irrelevant as a game. Maybe that's more justifiable behaviour towards a guy who kills your entire family or something, but to feel that way towards the author of a mere GAME that you didn't like?! [deleted as per Hunter's request]
As far as I'm concerned, Dave's a normal human being who certainly doesn't deserve this never-ending abuse. [deleted as per Hunter's request]
[deleted as per Hunter's request] If you think you can get away with launching such unjustifiable, offensive personal attacks on people who can't defend themselves here while I'm about, then you've got another think coming. And I'm going to continue to defend him, not because I think he's my personal god or that he's infallible or he's the greatest person on Earth or anything, but because nobody deserves that sort of treatment.
Funny. When I've had dealings with him (and I have had several conversations with him in the past) he was polite, courteous, and generally a nice guy. He's a decent bloke. He absolutely is not the monster that you make him out to be. You've got a serious and unjustified personal vendetta against the guy, you greatly over-exaggerate about him, and I suspect you seriously need to back away from the game for about 20 more years (because 10 years appears to be too short a time) to get over it.
Perhaps he gets pissed off when people like you start slagging him off. Gee, I wonder why that would happen. I can particularly imagine anyone getting defensive when people who haven't written a professional word in their lives hurl insults and slag off work that they've put a lot of time and effort into writing. He's only human, after all.
And tell me Aramis, what have you had published for Traveller? If you think you could have done any better, why didn't you submit anything yourself?
I imagine that back then the mere mention of TNE would start a flame war. Given that at the time there were nuts who were acting like drama queens on crack, even to the point of sending out death threats, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people would want any excuse to rip Dave apart. [deleted as per Hunter's request]
Oh, I'm sure he knows. [deleted as per Hunter's request]
[deleted as per Hunter's request] All you ever do here when Dave is mentioned is spout your vitriol, and I bet you're only doing it because you think you can get away with it because he's not here to defend himself. Well, I'm gonna defend him in his absence.
You have serious issues, man. You look and sound ridiculous, and you're beneath contempt in my books for continuing a 10-year long vendetta and taking every opportunity to drag a decent guy's name through the dirt every time he's mentioned, just because you don't like what he wrote for a mere game. Get some perspective, get over it, and grow up.
Really, how does can anyone consider your behaviour as being anything BUT utterly ridiculous?
Pure, unadulterated [nonsense]. If you didn't like what he did, nobody was forcing you to buy it. You could have just [shut up] and carried on playing your CT or MT and everyone else would have been better off for it. But no. You people had to whine and whine and whine, and get under everyone's skins, and fling around the insults and the threats, and act like your whole bloody world was ending, just because you didn't like the way the game was going. (oh yeah. That Chadwick guy? He invented the concept of Virus. Funny how he doesn't get the hate though).
You wanted a scapegoat to direct all your "righteous anger" at, pure and simple. And the best scapegoat was the poor sap writing the line, who you evidently decided it was fine to attack personally at every opportunity. And STILL, you hold the vendetta, when it's all done and dusted and distant history for most sane people.
I can't even believe that you're still so consumed by your hate though - after ten bloody years. What do you do, lie awake every night trying to plot his demise? [deleted as per Hunter's request]
And it's clear that you still do. Which is why you should [deleted as per Hunter's request] stay the hell away from anything to do with TNE.
I mean, why are you here answering this post? Were you just waiting for another soapbox to launch your attack on Dave? If so, then kindly leave. I don't want you, or people who think like you here contaminating this thread any more.
[I find your behaviour to be utterly abhorrent] - not because you don't like TNE (because you're entitled to not like it), but because you'd stoop so low as to still continue to defame a decent guy ten years on, and make him out to be Satan incarnate when he doesn't even remotely deserve that treatment - especially over something as utterly irrelevant as a game. Maybe that's more justifiable behaviour towards a guy who kills your entire family or something, but to feel that way towards the author of a mere GAME that you didn't like?! [deleted as per Hunter's request]
As far as I'm concerned, Dave's a normal human being who certainly doesn't deserve this never-ending abuse. [deleted as per Hunter's request]
[deleted as per Hunter's request] If you think you can get away with launching such unjustifiable, offensive personal attacks on people who can't defend themselves here while I'm about, then you've got another think coming. And I'm going to continue to defend him, not because I think he's my personal god or that he's infallible or he's the greatest person on Earth or anything, but because nobody deserves that sort of treatment.
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
Next personal attack by ANYONE in this thread will get the person making the post banned for a week.
This goes for personal attacks against board members and non-board members.
Those of you getting PMs from me had best heed them.
Folks don't push me on this.
Hunter
This goes for personal attacks against board members and non-board members.
Those of you getting PMs from me had best heed them.
Folks don't push me on this.
Hunter
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Back to the topic.
I've seen Dave's name on a couple of GURPS Traveller books, so the next question is:
if you could write a Traveller supplement or adventure for T20 what would it be?
I've seen Dave's name on a couple of GURPS Traveller books, so the next question is:
if you could write a Traveller supplement or adventure for T20 what would it be?
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
??? He has?
ooooh good question!
Heck Joe Fugate showed up out of the blue so why can't Dave! (If you do happen to be lurking out there Dave please email me, I'd love to talk with you about TNE and 1248!)
That's also a good reason why fans shouldn't go slagging the individual authors themselves. You'll never get any answers if the author thinks all he's going to get is attacked if he surfaces.
I won't prevent folks from speaking their opinions about the material produced for Traveller over the years (including our own), but these personal attacks have got to stop. For the first time since these boards were opened I am having to consider temporary bans on some folks and it's getting annoying.
I publish T20 and CT stuff. I could just restrict these discussion on these boards to nothing but our products. But that's isn't the point of these boards. The point is for EVERYONE to have a place to come and feel COMFORTABLE about discussion our favorite game no matter what version of the game it is. I want people like Joe Fugate, Dave Nilsen, and all the other 'Great Old Ones' to feel comfortable about rejoining the Traveller community. You may or may not like what they did for the game but they damn well ARE part of our history and frankly do deserve at least some respect for that.
Hunter
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Alien Races 3 for sure, there may be another one where his name appears in the credits, I'll have to check...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hear, hear.
Sticky this statement
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Hi Guys,
I feel as if I've just stepped onto the battlefield about ten minutes after the battle has ended. The smoke has cleared and now all I can see is the dead and dying....
I hope that we never, ever see a heated discussion like that again.
Just for the record, like lots of fans I was shocked by the changes of TNE, but when I tried the system and created a few adventures, I liked it...
TNE promoted free-wheeling adventure possibilities and was the best fun I've had next to M0.
I liked the intelligent machines
I liked the civilisation in ruins theme
I liked the 'let's re-build the glory ethic'
I liked the Hard Science that allowed spinal mounts in small craft.
I liked the ship shares system.
I liked the conflict between different RC worlds, and other empires that in their own way were trying to re-build an intersteller civilisation or at the least tame the chaos of the universe and impose an order, even if it was a corrupt order.
I didn't like were some of the illustrations, particularly the ones alongside the character classes/types.
I didn't like the small playing area, several subsectors instead of sectors.
In balance there was (IMHO) more to like than dislike. You'll never get a perfect game version in any rules sets, and that's life.
In all well done Dave!
It's sad that Dave has had to go into hiding though, that can be the only reason for ten years of silence.
I feel as if I've just stepped onto the battlefield about ten minutes after the battle has ended. The smoke has cleared and now all I can see is the dead and dying....
I hope that we never, ever see a heated discussion like that again.
Just for the record, like lots of fans I was shocked by the changes of TNE, but when I tried the system and created a few adventures, I liked it...
TNE promoted free-wheeling adventure possibilities and was the best fun I've had next to M0.
I liked the intelligent machines
I liked the civilisation in ruins theme
I liked the 'let's re-build the glory ethic'
I liked the Hard Science that allowed spinal mounts in small craft.
I liked the ship shares system.
I liked the conflict between different RC worlds, and other empires that in their own way were trying to re-build an intersteller civilisation or at the least tame the chaos of the universe and impose an order, even if it was a corrupt order.
I didn't like were some of the illustrations, particularly the ones alongside the character classes/types.
I didn't like the small playing area, several subsectors instead of sectors.
In balance there was (IMHO) more to like than dislike. You'll never get a perfect game version in any rules sets, and that's life.
In all well done Dave!
It's sad that Dave has had to go into hiding though, that can be the only reason for ten years of silence.
I will explain myself on the broken promises issue:
TNE when released promised not to significantly alter the regency; Nilsen "democratized" it.
TNE took an approach to aliens which, in addition to being nearly 180 degrees out from the CT materials, was in a tone (especially the Designer's Afterword) which made the efforts of the CT alien modules and the DGP ones both to be foolish wastes of time. "Since we can't thiink alien, why bother?" Dave himself describes prior alien modules, specifically the GDW ones, as "Fatuous Nonsense" (AOTRv1, P88). The book says, and I quote:
Several of us asked various questions; the politest response any of us got was the null response. Several were meat with a one line response: "So what?"
So when people ask why DN is reviled, well, it was because, at the time, he earned it. I've had no contact since the release of T4 (which caused me to drop off the TML.... which had forcibly rolled the XBML back in.)
The old guard were, while often distant, never directly insulting. DN, well, he clearly wasn't Old Guard.
TNE was, and despite a few odd bits, still is, an excellent set of RP rules... and I still want to know why TNE products changed the tone of the editing so drastically. (Open flippancy was NOT a common GDW trait; it appears prominently only in DN's works.)
As an aside, I am often more passionate in my missives that is considered healthy by some. So be it. Traveller has, in all its forms, been a part of my life since 1983. I hae spent more hours playing Traveller than ANY other game. I've run every edition, both in it's "Native" setting, and in my preferred Post 5FW/preShatter timeframe, except GT. And if I bother to write, I write with passion.
And, aside from the credit as a playtester in T20, I've written an article on Merchant Spacer's Tickets, which was on downport for several years (and may still be there), and until my ISP deleted my webspace, hosted a set of optional rules for MT, as well as a wonderful bit about Wypoc, admittedly IMTU. I also wrote a set of conversions (with the aid of Peter Newman) for using Vampire 1st Ed as a set of rules for playing Traveller.
I was considering approaching Hunter and MWM with yet another conversion project, and seeing if this one could be semi-official, to another Open Supplement System (Which I happened to be a playtester for), and am working on (for free release via web, or possibly to be submitted fait accompli to Hunter to see if he can sell it) a set of mayday-MT hybrid rules.
I apologize for the tone, if it offends. I really do wonder why DN made the editorial and game design decisions he did. It shaped a generation of traveller players.
TNE when released promised not to significantly alter the regency; Nilsen "democratized" it.
TNE took an approach to aliens which, in addition to being nearly 180 degrees out from the CT materials, was in a tone (especially the Designer's Afterword) which made the efforts of the CT alien modules and the DGP ones both to be foolish wastes of time. "Since we can't thiink alien, why bother?" Dave himself describes prior alien modules, specifically the GDW ones, as "Fatuous Nonsense" (AOTRv1, P88). The book says, and I quote:
I have wondered for years what motivated such terrifically incensing words; not just to me, but to a number of friends of various religious beliefs, all of whom were traveller fans. (Invoking god for a work of fiction is, to say the least, bad form. I assumed it was meant to be tongue in cheek.)
Several of us asked various questions; the politest response any of us got was the null response. Several were meat with a one line response: "So what?"
So when people ask why DN is reviled, well, it was because, at the time, he earned it. I've had no contact since the release of T4 (which caused me to drop off the TML.... which had forcibly rolled the XBML back in.)
The old guard were, while often distant, never directly insulting. DN, well, he clearly wasn't Old Guard.
TNE was, and despite a few odd bits, still is, an excellent set of RP rules... and I still want to know why TNE products changed the tone of the editing so drastically. (Open flippancy was NOT a common GDW trait; it appears prominently only in DN's works.)
As an aside, I am often more passionate in my missives that is considered healthy by some. So be it. Traveller has, in all its forms, been a part of my life since 1983. I hae spent more hours playing Traveller than ANY other game. I've run every edition, both in it's "Native" setting, and in my preferred Post 5FW/preShatter timeframe, except GT. And if I bother to write, I write with passion.
And, aside from the credit as a playtester in T20, I've written an article on Merchant Spacer's Tickets, which was on downport for several years (and may still be there), and until my ISP deleted my webspace, hosted a set of optional rules for MT, as well as a wonderful bit about Wypoc, admittedly IMTU. I also wrote a set of conversions (with the aid of Peter Newman) for using Vampire 1st Ed as a set of rules for playing Traveller.
I was considering approaching Hunter and MWM with yet another conversion project, and seeing if this one could be semi-official, to another Open Supplement System (Which I happened to be a playtester for), and am working on (for free release via web, or possibly to be submitted fait accompli to Hunter to see if he can sell it) a set of mayday-MT hybrid rules.
I apologize for the tone, if it offends. I really do wonder why DN made the editorial and game design decisions he did. It shaped a generation of traveller players.
M
Malenfant
Guest
I apologise to Hunter for my last post on this thread. I could have handled that a lot better, but I'm sick to the back teeth of Aramis' continuous, baseless and spiteful attacks on Dave whenever he's mentioned, and for him to do it on a thread where I specifically and explicitly made the point of saying "no attacks on Dave here" was the last straw for me. Dave Nilsen does not deserve that sort of treatment. And I'd also like to apologise to Hunter for going way over the line and disregarding the rules of the forum to make that point.
I also apologise to everyone who was not the target of that post, for having to read that. It was not becoming of me, but I felt it had to be said.
However, I will neither retract what I said to Aramis and nor will I apologise to him. I meant every word I said. However, Hunter has asked me to tone down the language and remove the personal attacks, which is fair enough.
I also apologise to everyone who was not the target of that post, for having to read that. It was not becoming of me, but I felt it had to be said.
However, I will neither retract what I said to Aramis and nor will I apologise to him. I meant every word I said. However, Hunter has asked me to tone down the language and remove the personal attacks, which is fair enough.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Taking a deep breath when replying to this... I promise to not personally attack anyone here.
</font>[/QUOTE]Again, you continue to quote him out of context and over-exaggerate in your attempt to slander the man. Though this time you really are clutching at straws.
What was that marvellous quote I saw...? Oh yes:
"Jesus took away your sins, not your sense of humour".
But wait. Let's look at the rest of the credits shall we? It's all pretty normal, until...
Let me quote from AotR exactly what he says, so as to show everyone what Dave really said and thus disprove your wildly biased claims. In fact, I can pretty much let Dave's words speak for themselves.
(and excuse the massive quoting - hopefully this counts as fair use?)
He then continues to back this up by pointing out the perfectly valid point that humans can't possibly imagine a truly alien mindset, because we aren't aliens - we'd just be anthropomorphising them. The best we can say if we encounter a truly alien intelligence is (and I quote) "Oh my god, they're crazy! but they're quirky and weird, and so help me I like them!". Which is what the Ithklur were supposed to be.
"What then do we get out of sci-fi gaming?", Dave asks.
Heck, the only thing missing from the end of Dave's afterword there was:
It's also patently obvious that he was making a very important, thoughtful, and valid point in his typically quirky manner. He's absolutely right. We can't possibly claim to be able to come up with a truly alien mindset, and everything we do - no matter how much we pretend otherwise - does ultimately boil down to human beings simply pretending to be something they're not.
And you know what? I'm the kinda guy who likes his roleplaying realistic. I also like to "plumb the depths of the human psyche" from time to time too. But even I don't take it so seriously that I can't laugh at myself!
And anyway, despite the offence you took to his "fatuous nonsense" comment, I'm pretty sure GDW wouldn't have let him publish that in the afterword if they had been offended by it.
In your unending quest to find things to hate about the man, you appear to have completely missed what he was actually saying, and instead fixated single-minded on the fact that you basically just don't like his writing style and take what you do way too seriously. So here's a tissue, Aramis. You'll need that to wipe off the egg that's dripping down your face.
Meanwhile, I think it's clear that Dave is a smart chap, with a quirky style perhaps, and to be honest I'd love to sit down and have a beer with him someday, because I like his style.
Now. [shoves Aramis off his soapbox]. Do you think we could get back to asking questions here that we'd like to ask Dave should he ever return, instead of trying to find things to slag off about him?
Please indicate where TNE "promised" not to significantly alter the Regency.
I have wondered for years what motivated such terrifically incensing words; not just to me, but to a number of friends of various religious beliefs, all of whom were traveller fans. (Invoking god for a work of fiction is, to say the least, bad form. I assumed it was meant to be tongue in cheek.)
</font>[/QUOTE]Again, you continue to quote him out of context and over-exaggerate in your attempt to slander the man. Though this time you really are clutching at straws.
What was that marvellous quote I saw...? Oh yes:
"Jesus took away your sins, not your sense of humour".
But wait. Let's look at the rest of the credits shall we? It's all pretty normal, until...
Gee. Do you really think he might have been tongue-in-cheek there? OF COURSE HE WAS BEING TONGUE-IN-CHEEK!!! How on Earth could you possibly think otherwise, given the above?
I've got AotR open in front of me, and he doesn't specifically imply that previous alien modules are "fatuous nonsense". (in fact, he says specifically that he will "refrain from citations").
Let me quote from AotR exactly what he says, so as to show everyone what Dave really said and thus disprove your wildly biased claims. In fact, I can pretty much let Dave's words speak for themselves.
(and excuse the massive quoting - hopefully this counts as fair use?)
It's rampantly clear to me that he's being facetious here, not malicious.
He then continues to back this up by pointing out the perfectly valid point that humans can't possibly imagine a truly alien mindset, because we aren't aliens - we'd just be anthropomorphising them. The best we can say if we encounter a truly alien intelligence is (and I quote) "Oh my god, they're crazy! but they're quirky and weird, and so help me I like them!". Which is what the Ithklur were supposed to be.
"What then do we get out of sci-fi gaming?", Dave asks.
He continues:
Oh, and don't forget the disclaimer at the bottom of the page:
From all that, it's patently obvious that Dave had a somewhat flippant writing style when writing from a personal POV in the TNE books (or even in character). It is also patently obvious that his tongue was planted firmly in his cheek throughout. Personally, I think it makes for every entertaining reading, and it beats a dry "so uh, we did this. And added that. Boy am I glad I've finished writing this book!". You'll find that many afterwords are written in a fairly entertaining, personal manner.
Heck, the only thing missing from the end of Dave's afterword there was:
And seriously, you Aramis are exactly the sort of person who would have an apoplectic fit at those quotes, and exactly the sort of person who needs, to quote Dave, to "get a grip".
It's also patently obvious that he was making a very important, thoughtful, and valid point in his typically quirky manner. He's absolutely right. We can't possibly claim to be able to come up with a truly alien mindset, and everything we do - no matter how much we pretend otherwise - does ultimately boil down to human beings simply pretending to be something they're not.
And you know what? I'm the kinda guy who likes his roleplaying realistic. I also like to "plumb the depths of the human psyche" from time to time too. But even I don't take it so seriously that I can't laugh at myself!
And anyway, despite the offence you took to his "fatuous nonsense" comment, I'm pretty sure GDW wouldn't have let him publish that in the afterword if they had been offended by it.
In your unending quest to find things to hate about the man, you appear to have completely missed what he was actually saying, and instead fixated single-minded on the fact that you basically just don't like his writing style and take what you do way too seriously. So here's a tissue, Aramis. You'll need that to wipe off the egg that's dripping down your face.
Meanwhile, I think it's clear that Dave is a smart chap, with a quirky style perhaps, and to be honest I'd love to sit down and have a beer with him someday, because I like his style.
No, he wasn't. And I'm glad he wasn't, because TNE wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as it was.
Unfortunately, I don't share Hunter's view that anyone who contributes to a playtest or who writes work on a webpage that they weren't paid for is a published author. I contributed to several GURPS playtests at SJG and I never considered myself to be an author until I actually co-wrote a published book that was released last year.
Judging by what Dave said that I quoted here, I think it shaped them in a very positive way. I bet you'll be hard pressed to find a TNE fan who is as conservative about things as a typical CT grognard.
Now. [shoves Aramis off his soapbox]. Do you think we could get back to asking questions here that we'd like to ask Dave should he ever return, instead of trying to find things to slag off about him?
I still want to know why he took that editorial slant, and democratized the Regency. And why he decided the credits page was for making light of peoples efforts.
Three very direct, amd on topic questions.
motivated by, in part, having been following the press releases, store solicitations, and pre-release materials, TNE was, as a rulebook, not a frightful surprise (Thanks to Survival Margin), but RegSB was a complete surprise, and AOTRv1 was even worse. If I hadn't been a completist, and considering it immoral to return a book fully read, I'd have turned those two back.
I truly am curious (and was at the time they came out, curious enough to ask him...).
Describing the position of GDW's previous stance on Alien modules as fatuous nonsense implies that they were a waste of time, both as product and as effort to use them. His expressed disdain for them on-list on the TML gave reason to belive the tone of the editors' afterword was, in fact, not sattire...
Perhaps I should don a San*claus hat, go on pilgrimmage and eat corndogs? The fact that I've never met a player willing to play such a comedicly portrayed race as the Ithklur gives rise to another question:
Was the tone of AOTRv1:H&I inteded to kill the Alien Modules line?
I'd seriously like an answer... it was out of the expected range of treatments of non-humans in GDW products. The afterword read, at the time, and to be honest, still does, like a slap in the face of many players and GM's I've known who truly worked hard to play aliens with alien psychology.
Three very direct, amd on topic questions.
motivated by, in part, having been following the press releases, store solicitations, and pre-release materials, TNE was, as a rulebook, not a frightful surprise (Thanks to Survival Margin), but RegSB was a complete surprise, and AOTRv1 was even worse. If I hadn't been a completist, and considering it immoral to return a book fully read, I'd have turned those two back.
I truly am curious (and was at the time they came out, curious enough to ask him...).
Describing the position of GDW's previous stance on Alien modules as fatuous nonsense implies that they were a waste of time, both as product and as effort to use them. His expressed disdain for them on-list on the TML gave reason to belive the tone of the editors' afterword was, in fact, not sattire...
Perhaps I should don a San*claus hat, go on pilgrimmage and eat corndogs? The fact that I've never met a player willing to play such a comedicly portrayed race as the Ithklur gives rise to another question:
Was the tone of AOTRv1:H&I inteded to kill the Alien Modules line?
I'd seriously like an answer... it was out of the expected range of treatments of non-humans in GDW products. The afterword read, at the time, and to be honest, still does, like a slap in the face of many players and GM's I've known who truly worked hard to play aliens with alien psychology.
M
Malenfant
Guest
You're still going on as if there was some big conspiracy to "kill Traveller". Look around, Aramis. Traveller is not dead. What's more, 1248 is bringing TNE back. It really, really doesn't matter anymore what Dave's motivations behind TNE were. I will accept that Dave's style could have been grating to some people, but come on! Stop taking everything he wrote so darn personally, it really isn't worth the obsession and the increased blood pressure. That water has not only gone under the bridge, it's way out on the other side of the Pacific by now! Most people moved beyond all that a long time ago (if they were even affected by it at all), and they're asking more important questions now, like what things Dave had in mind for the setting.
Maybe you're under the impression that you're the Lone Crusader for Traveller Justice, but you really are not. You're just a guy beating the powdered skeleton of a long dead horse. I mean, now you're complaining about what the man said in an afterword? And you're actually offended by the credits of a book, that are clearly written for fun?
So he might not have liked earlier work - but he's not even obliged to like it. Considering that TNE was such a major break from the earlier work, perhaps he just figured he had an opportunity to revamp everything. "In for a penny, in for a pound" as they say. Or maybe he didn't. I'm not psychic, after all. Either way, it was his book to write, not yours. And GDW evidently didn't think it was that bad, since they could have just not publshed it if that was the case.
Though personally, I can't see that previous versions of the alien races were anything but "people in funny suits" anyway. They easily fit into human stereotypes. Vilani? "boring, conservative humans". Zhodani? "evil psychic commie bad guys with Turbans!" Solomani? "Jackbooted fascist thugs!", Aslan? "furry samurai!". Vargr "squabbling furry pirates!". As far as aliens go, the Traveller ones are pretty conventional - the only remotely strange ones are the K'Kree and Hivers, and even they're as identifiable as the others are ("psycho militant vegetarians" and "funny-shaped manipulators"). The Traveller races really are not even remotely "alien". Now, the ones in 2300AD are a bit more original, but the funny thing there is that you generally can't play them as characters - they remain a mystery for players to wonder about.
I'll be the first to admit that AotR is an acquired taste - it took me ages to get my head around what Dave was trying to do with it. When I first read it just really didn't get it at all. And I still think the thing with the hats is silly and didn't really work at all in practise. But over time it's slowly clicked. Like I said, if you started actually reading what he said instead of fixating on how he said it, maybe you'd be getting somewhere.
But so what if people don't play the Ithklur? I've never heard of anyone playing a Hiver as a regular character either. Or a K'Kree for that matter. You know what I heard about most on these boards that people end up playing? Non-Terran Humans, Vargr and Aslan - the races that are in fact quite obviously "humans in funny suits". Why? Because they're a darn sight easier to play than a race whose thought processes that you have to rotate your brain sideways through another dimension before you can begin to comprehend.
Maybe you're under the impression that you're the Lone Crusader for Traveller Justice, but you really are not. You're just a guy beating the powdered skeleton of a long dead horse. I mean, now you're complaining about what the man said in an afterword? And you're actually offended by the credits of a book, that are clearly written for fun?
So he might not have liked earlier work - but he's not even obliged to like it. Considering that TNE was such a major break from the earlier work, perhaps he just figured he had an opportunity to revamp everything. "In for a penny, in for a pound" as they say. Or maybe he didn't. I'm not psychic, after all. Either way, it was his book to write, not yours. And GDW evidently didn't think it was that bad, since they could have just not publshed it if that was the case.
Though personally, I can't see that previous versions of the alien races were anything but "people in funny suits" anyway. They easily fit into human stereotypes. Vilani? "boring, conservative humans". Zhodani? "evil psychic commie bad guys with Turbans!" Solomani? "Jackbooted fascist thugs!", Aslan? "furry samurai!". Vargr "squabbling furry pirates!". As far as aliens go, the Traveller ones are pretty conventional - the only remotely strange ones are the K'Kree and Hivers, and even they're as identifiable as the others are ("psycho militant vegetarians" and "funny-shaped manipulators"). The Traveller races really are not even remotely "alien". Now, the ones in 2300AD are a bit more original, but the funny thing there is that you generally can't play them as characters - they remain a mystery for players to wonder about.
I'll be the first to admit that AotR is an acquired taste - it took me ages to get my head around what Dave was trying to do with it. When I first read it just really didn't get it at all. And I still think the thing with the hats is silly and didn't really work at all in practise. But over time it's slowly clicked. Like I said, if you started actually reading what he said instead of fixating on how he said it, maybe you'd be getting somewhere.
But so what if people don't play the Ithklur? I've never heard of anyone playing a Hiver as a regular character either. Or a K'Kree for that matter. You know what I heard about most on these boards that people end up playing? Non-Terran Humans, Vargr and Aslan - the races that are in fact quite obviously "humans in funny suits". Why? Because they're a darn sight easier to play than a race whose thought processes that you have to rotate your brain sideways through another dimension before you can begin to comprehend.
If it's anything like GT 2nd edition it's more likely an acknowledgement of using prior sources than new material. But I could be totally wrong. LKW et al would know but I've no idea if they'd be willing or able to clarify, esp. in a flame war thread <sigh>
.from GT 2nd edition credits page:
"Additional Material and Assistance by M.J. Doughterty, Neil Frier, Willian H. Keith, jr., J. Andrew Keith, David Nilsen, David Summers, and Aerron Winsor".
[UPDATE] AR3 "Written by David Pulver, David Nilsen, Andy Slack, and David Thomas". Unfortunately the TOC etc. pdf isn't working for me.
Regardless GT:AR3 and some form of AotR are on the "buy sometime" list now.
I've already had a blast running NPC Hiver Prefect Nim so more Hiver goodness is welcome. Ithklur make a great team with Hiver NPCs. Which one’s the straight man? They really are more alien to me than the other OTU aliens in an Illuminated sorta way. The soccer ball is blue. <Hiver hand wiggle>As an aside, Kudos to the QLI crew for putting a Hiver outpost the other side of the Imperium border in Gateway.
Casey (who *likes" that the crew of the Red Dwarf are given a nod in AotR)
Wow, so that's what a flame war looks like. Wow.
Just so long as it doesn't heat up...
Now, I asked this over on the GURPS Free Forum, and (according to Chris Thrash, who being a published G:T author seems to me like he'd know) G:T deliberately took from earlier versions, MegaTrav especially (and if you look on the first page of the index of Rim Of Fire you'll find a piece of MT art). Sorta makes me sad I missed out on the GDW stuff, though.
Now, I asked this over on the GURPS Free Forum, and (according to Chris Thrash, who being a published G:T author seems to me like he'd know) G:T deliberately took from earlier versions, MegaTrav especially (and if you look on the first page of the index of Rim Of Fire you'll find a piece of MT art). Sorta makes me sad I missed out on the GDW stuff, though.
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