TNE Flame War ;)

[Malenfant]

There's a flaw in your argument, RoS - that "investment" is entirely illusory.

"Just move on to other things, or continue playing whatever version you did like." is not unreasonable at all. It's a logical, rational, reasonable, black-and-white-cut--to-the-chase-no-BS solution to the problem. If one does that, one saves oneself a lot of time and energy in not whinging about something that one hates, which means more time and energy going into whatever one's investment is in.

The problem is that people expect to like everything the publisher releases. If they don't like it, they WANT to like it. But they keep finding things not to like, and cognitive dissonance results. From that comes frustration, rants, tantrums and other stroppiness - all of which stems from the fact that the "fan" just refuses to admit he doesn't actually like the product. If the "fan" accepts this, and sticks with what he likes, I'll guarantee that his problems with it will disappear, and life will be better for everyone else within earshot too.

If you like CT, carry on playing it. Your "investment" doesn't suddenly disappear when MT or TNE is released. Your notes don't suddenly go up in smoke. Your friends don't suddenly toss your CT books out of the window and club you over the head with the new game til you give in and play it.

Expecting a publisher to support whatever you like is not reasonable at all - it's 100% UNreasonable. They can't possibly support what everyone likes and make everyone happy. And sometimes companies decide to take the games in new directions. And the simple fact of the matter is that if they do that, your opinion is irrelevant. You have a choice - either you accept the change and pick it up, or you drop it and walk away. Hanging around and complaining about it only irritates everyone listening.

Get this "reasonable expectation" and "investment" pretense out of your head though, because it's entirely false. As I've said before, it originates because Traveller fans have this FALSE expectation that they have the right to dictate to a publisher what they must do. They can listen to what customers say, sure, but they have no obligation to act on that at all. RPG publishers generally are not publicly floated companies owned by shareholders that they have to listen to.

I sometimes think that Traveller fans have no clue how this industry works, given the nonsense that some of them spout sometimes. Traveller is just another RPG, and it has to work in the market by the same rules as every other game does. The funny thing is that I don't see the ENWorld boards clogged up with regular flamewars about how crap D&D3e is and how great AD&D1e was, started by old fans hanging on (yes, there's Dragonfoot. But nobody actually cares what they say there). And I don't see endless flamewars on the WW forums about how crap Mage Revised was compared to Mage 1e, or how crap Vampire:The Requiem is compared to Vampire 1e.

Why is it that other companies - and the fans on their discussion boards and mailing lists - don't have to endure the endless whining about the end of a game line - 10 years on - but QLI and FFE does?

Why? As best as I can see, it's because Traveller fans somehow think they're different to everyone else, that they have a misplaced sense of entitlement, that they have a public share in the publishers, and that the publishers have to do what they say as a result. I dunno.

But as Casey implies, how many times are people gonna flog this dead horse? Traveller isn't dead, it's alive and well, and as I've always said the biggest threat to the game's continuing survival is probably the "fans" who just want to whinge about everything and not just get on with playing what they like to play with the version that they're already happy with.

Oh yeah - *tosses Casey a shotgun* - Casey, you and me, back to back. We can take these suckas on together <Ka-CHAK!>

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Then, obviously, you haven't been listening in the right places. There are online forums, including Dragonsfoot and RPG.net where wailing aplenty gets done about many of game systems, d20 leading the way among the targets.

Note I said I don’t. I know some people do. But I still don’t think it reaches the same level as in Traveller. Last time I checked Dragonsfoot, last week, they had deleted their system wars forum, taken all 3E discussion off the site, and were doing a nice job focusing on actually playing, answering questions for, and producing quality material for pre-3E games and successor games to OD&D like Savage Worlds, Hackmaster, and Castles & Crusades. Kudos to them. As for rpg.net wailing is endemic there. But do people wail about how d20 killed OD&D still? I thought "my hat of 02 hath no limit" was like last year? And will that continue for 10+ years, long after D&D3E is OOP? I hope not nor do I think it will. There’s also a difference between hating D&D and d20 and having played OD&D and hating d20 so much it includes hating Jonathon Tweet and company. I can see not liking a game enough to not play it.

Really? I would say, not. Available, yes. Easy to get, no.

A lot easier than 1st edition Jorune or a boxed set of Empire of the Petal Throne. I ordered QLI’s CT book 1-3 reprint not that long ago right from QLI with no problem, CT books and supplements reprints by FFE from my FLGS. downloaded MT and T4 from DTRPG and bought TNE used at Origins for $10. That’s about as easy as you can get for a RPG.

No, it&#146s not all available on PDF, and while PDFs make for a great quick reference, to me, they're completely useless for reading. Basically, I never buy PDFs. Ever. Give me dead trees and more of them.

All the core rules are available either in print or pdf. Sorry you have no use for PDFs; you can go down, send them, or upload them to a kinkos or similar and get them printed. Again still easier than finding 1st edition Jorune.

Originally posted by Casey
Traveller's far from "killed".

I never intimated a word that it was. Although, it certainly did appear to experience heart failure followed by quadruple bypass (IG, QLI, SJG, FFE) surgery.

I wasn’t quoting you directly nor responding to you directly. A previous poster had used the words killed and that was who I was directly quoting and responding to.

Except that Traveller started out with 3 books. Little Black Books, that is . . .

Yes, I have a copy of 1st edition. They were always sold as a boxed set, never separately though and the Traveller Book, which I also have, was one book. By one book I mean the core rules, whatever the format.

Casey
edit-cleaned up quotings
update-the decade or two line in the previous post was from TNE being 10+ years old now, MT about 20+

 

[Erik Boielle]

+++++And I don't see endless flamewars on the WW forums about how crap Mage Revised was compared to Mage 1e+++++

Really?

I was faintly under the impression that it can still happen.

Obviously I favour Mage 1stE centered strongly around the asension war between Science(!) and the other, lesser forms of Magic(k), and everything later is a horrible mistake for which innocents, and their children, and their childrens children (and in turn, their children) must suffer eternal vivisection to atone for.

And George Lucas really does hate us all. Its the only explanation.

 

[Malenfant]

Well, I still like Mage 1e, and I still think that was better in some ways than 2e was (and definitely better than Revised). I bought all the books for Mage 1e, ran lots of games for it, wrote hundreds of pages of material for it... and yet I don't complain about how Mage Revised "killed Mage" or ruined the game. yes, I was annoyed for a little while, but I moved on in short order.

If I ran Mage again, I'd use the 1e/2e hybrid. I don't care that the line is finished and will be re-invented in the future (and for all I know, I may like the new line).

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Casey:
As for rpg.net wailing is endemic there. But do people wail about how d20 killed OD&D still? I thought "my hat of 02 hath no limit" was like last year? And will that continue for 10+ years, long after D&D3E is OOP? I hope not nor do I think it will. There’s also a difference between hating D&D and d20 and having played OD&D and hating d20 so much it includes hating Jonathon Tweet and company. I can see not liking a game enough to not play it.
[/QB]

Yes, wailing is endemic on rpg.net. But while there have been some discussions about "where is the love for OD&D" or whatever, I can't remember those devolving into flamewars (at least not over that subject itself. Over a posters' comments or attitude, maybe).

Oh, and it's "my hat for d02 have no limit!"

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Yes, wailing is endemic on rpg.net. But while there have been some discussions about "where is the love for OD&D" or whatever, I can't remember those devolving into flamewars (at least not over that subject itself. Over a posters' comments or attitude, maybe).

Oh, and it's "my hat for d02 have no limit!"

Woops! It has been a while...

I got a kick out of the Seppuku Kitty shirts from the Tangency Avatar guy. ^_^

True, rpg.net has a wide range of likes and dislikes and almost anything except TNTSNBN is liked and discussed positively, at least at first

, at some point, even RIFTS . I think there was a "where is the love for AD&D2E?" thread recently. That got me to break out my 2E books and Planescape for a good skim. I've not registered there yet but have lurked there off and on for years now.

Casey (activates DOOM Three Stooges weapon sound mod file for da boomstick)

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
And George Lucas really does hate us all. Its the only explanation.

<snort>

All I'll say is Episode I on dvd was worth the $$ to me for the segment where a sound guy goes out with a boom mic on his bicycle to record the sound of a WWI bomber and II for the sonic torpedo segment in Dolby 5.1 Surround Sound.

Casey

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
There's a flaw in your argument, RoS - that "investment" is entirely illusory.

There is no flaw.

The dismissal is still a blithe (and unsupported) one.

To call people&#146s efforts and works &#147illusory&#148 is . . . quite . . . dismissive of the entire gaming industry, all gamers, all they do, everywhere. The statement is in and of itself anti-gaming.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
"Just move on to other things, or continue playing whatever version you did like."

Again, a dismissal. It is semantically equivalent to "I don't like you, go away." Hardly a successful argument of the facts.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
is not unreasonable at all.

It is unreasonable.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
It's a logical,

Nope.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
rational,

Not.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
reasonable,

Quite the opposite.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
black-and-white

Yes, there are only two sides. Blithe dismissal and serious consideration.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
-cut--to-the-chase

Chase?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
-no-BS solution to the problem.

There is no solution to something like this. The &#147problem&#148 exists as a set in stone situation in the past. Nothing can change it, therefore there is no solution.

We can talk about it all we like, though. Free speech and all. And if I like, I will.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
If one does that, one saves oneself a lot of time and energy in not whinging about something that one hates,

It&#146s . . . a . . . &#147Flame War&#148 . . . thread. My last post discussed this in more detail (about one sentence more).

Originally posted by Malenfant:
which means more time and energy going into whatever one's investment is in.

Taking a break from the action to engage in criticism sharpens the mind for work on one's own material. It also tends to show you where your own critical statements do or don't find purchase in a community larger than yourself, thereby giving oneself a reference point of validity in the decision making processes related to editing and design.

Successful self-editing requires an extremely critical mind.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
The problem is that people expect to like everything the publisher releases.

Well, I guess that means I&#146m not people.

The state one seeks is not to like everything from a publisher, but to like anything from the publisher.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
If they don't like it, they WANT to like it.

Ok, that didn't make sense.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
But they keep finding things not to like, and cognitive dissonance results.

I guess not being people helps me avoid the dissonace.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
From that comes frustration, rants, tantrums and other stroppiness

&#147Stroppieness&#148? &#147Stroppieness&#148? &#147Stroppieness&#148?

I&#146ve got to let you know, I bust out laughing reading that.

Also, the constant use of the word tantrum is a deliberate choice in an attempt to color the target class of gamers as infantile and childish, when they most certainly are not.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
- all of which stems from the fact that the "fan" just refuses to admit he doesn't actually like the product.

That also made no sense.

Equivalent: &#147The fan dislikes the product, won&#146t admit it, and therefore gets frustrated.&#148

I assure you, if someone is going around cursing a product, they have admitted their dislike.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
If the "fan" accepts this,

Ah-hah! Pronoun trouble! What is referred to by the word &#147this&#148? Is it the part before that made no sense? I can&#146t locate what else it might be pointing at.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
and sticks with what he likes,

This rings of &#147Who Moved My Cheese&#148. I won&#146t even get into my opinion on that particular book.

It also rings of attempting to insist that others think and feel that way you want them to. I have news. I’ll quote LKW himself (to me, in fact, on an unrelated TML email), “Learn to live with disappointment.”

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I'll guarantee that his problems with it will disappear, and life will be better for everyone else within earshot too.

Equivalent: &#147I don&#146t like what you&#146re saying, stop it!&#148

Originally posted by Malenfant:
If you like CT, carry on playing it.

We&#146re now back to this already refuted argument.

Dead game systems receive no support. No support equals minimal to no interest among most gamers, and minimal inspiration related to it, as well. This translates directly in an unattractive situation. It cannot be seriously recommended that people slog through deep sticky mud as an alternative. Lacking an attractive alternative, those in this class of gamers will go do something else. And they didn’t really want to go do something else, which is where the frustration comes from.

Railing against the existence of the frustration and anger of Traveller fans over past issues will not make it go away.

The situation requires diplomacy and healing.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Your "investment" doesn't suddenly disappear when MT or TNE is released.

I did not say it disappeared. I stated the investment was invalidated, a quite different term. A Stock bought at $100.00/share that drops in value to $0.01/share is still there, but is now worthless.

To extend this analogy, Traveller fandom can be considered to have possessed several different types of Stock, and various gamers had different amounts of buy-in.

Some Traveller gamers bought the official-OTU as-presented Stock, and in quantity. It is they who suffered the most at the advent of the Rebellion, when the value of that Stock dropped.

After the Rebellion, a great many who lost big returned to the market anyway, and they (perhaps some might say foolishly, given the nature of this analogy) bought Rebellion-OTU stock, and in quantity. And the advent of TNE devalued Rebellion-OTU stock, as well.

Of course, all that Stock was still there. All the effort had been made, and potentially could still be used by those willing to go on without ongoing published support, but this does not mean that all would be willing to do so. And, over time, I&#146m quite sure that a great deal of that Stock really has been lost, as former die-hard fans gradually lost interest and moved away, their websites dead or dying, the notes on their games decaying, destroyed, or vanished.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Your notes don't suddenly go up in smoke.

I wish I knew what had happened to a lot of mine.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Your friends don't suddenly toss your CT books out of the window and club you over the head with the new game til you give in and play it.

That&#146s hard to say, as Traveller ceases to be an active gaming operation for me before I was half way through high school. Rebellion was a ways off. I was already “playing with traveller” rather than “playing traveller” by 1985.

I’ll avoid restatement of my problems with MT and the Rebellion, as that is definitely off-topic.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Expecting a publisher to support whatever you like is not reasonable at all

And I never said it was, either. So I’m not sure why you’re making this statement.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
They can't possibly support what everyone likes and make everyone happy.

And I never said that any publisher had to, either.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And sometimes companies decide to take the games in new directions.

And I am free without restraint to make whatever comments, good, bad, ugly, I like related to those directions that were taken lo those many years ago (as long as I don’t violate the EULA, including the personal attacks rule, which I haven’t).

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And the simple fact of the matter is that if they do that,

Ah, the obvious, again.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
your opinion is irrelevant.

Well, I’m afraid that is wrong. My opinion controls my spending. All through the MT/TNE years, I was not a Traveller supporting fann.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
You have a choice - either you accept the change and pick it up, or you drop it and walk away.

Really? Well, “My way or the highway,” is a valid method conducting affairs, but is hardly conducive to success. It is also a recommendation that if you are dissatisfied with a state of affairs, that you don’t fight for what you believe in, that you quit and run (or walk) away.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Hanging around and complaining about it only irritates everyone listening.

Blithe dismissals are also quite irritating, I assure you. Nevertheless, I am prepared to hear you state them, because that is your right, and I am unwilling to hide under a rock to protect my tender ears, which is what I should do if I don’t wish to hear all the things that may be said in a world not under my control.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Get this "reasonable expectation" and "investment" pretense

It is not a pretense.

Only blithe dismissal marks it such.

My statements are completely valid and logically supported.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
out of your head though, because it's entirely false.

On the contrary, it’s entirely true, as I clearly and unmistakably noted. My statements regarding such have as yet not been refuted other than by blithe dismissal.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
As I've said before, it originates because Traveller fans have this FALSE expectation that they ave the right to dictate to a publisher what they must do.

I have no such expectation, and so this cannot possibly apply to me, and therefore does not refute anything I’ve said. The entire statement is overly broad, are you not yourself a Traveller fan? Do you therefore have this “FALSE expectation”? I rather regard the entire above statement as null.

I have not seen any specific quote by anyone else on CotI (or even the TML, so far) stating anything of the kind, either. Please cite the references that give rise to the immediately above conclusion.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
They can listen to what customers say, sure, but they have no obligation to act on that at all. RPG publishers generally are not publicly floated companies owned by shareholders that they have to listen to.

I sometimes think that Traveller fans have no clue how this industry works,

Are you including yourself as a Traveller fan here? If you are, then you think you don’t understand how the industry works. Yet, it’s clear you believe you have some special insight into the gaming industry the rest of us do not. It seems, on the face of it, that you exclude yourself from the label “Traveller fan” here.

Further, I assure you, I’ve been studying the SF&F and Gaming publishing business for over thirteen years, am successfully professionally published in gaming myself, and have discussed it with pros from all parts of the industry, in person. I know how the industry works. Quite well, in fact.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
given the nonsense that some of them spout sometimes.

“Them” in this context seems to indicate Traveller fans.

I now ask the question. Are you, Malenfant, a Traveller fan? (Or am I just slyly making blithe and inappropriate readings of your statements regarding Traveller fans in this and the above contexts?)

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Traveller is just another RPG, and it has to work in the market by the same rules as every other game does.

We’re back to the obvious.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
The funny thing is that I don't see the ENWorld boards clogged up with regular flamewars about how crap D&D3e is and how great AD&D1e was,

ENWorld is a pro-d20 board. Of course you don’t see d20 bashed there often. Try Dragonsfoot, though, heh. I have seen bashing of 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, though.

RPG.net is full of game bashing. Palladium as a game and company has titanic threads (many threads) full of flames.

I have seen flames against Exalted, etc. And I didn’t even spend much time looking.

Please don’t pretend, even for a single Planck Instant, that Traveller is unique in this regard. Please.

In fact, I believe a previous thread here on CotI itself already covered all of this, so having to go over it again is odd.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
started by old fans hanging on (yes, there's Dragonfoot. But nobody actually cares what they say there).

Another blithe dismissal.

What is your foundation for stating that “no one” cares about what is said on Dragonsfoot? Do you know everyone who goes there and what they care about? It’s an unsupportable statement.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And I don't see endless flamewars on the WW forums about how crap Mage Revised was compared to Mage 1e, or how crap Vampire:The Requiem is compared to Vampire 1e.

Why is it that other companies - and the fans on their discussion boards and mailing lists - don't have to endure the endless whining about the end of a game line - 10 years on - but QLI and FFE does?

You’re statement is overly broad, and attempts to make an assertion which is false on the face of it. Old vs. new game bashing happens all over the place, up and down the years. Stating it’s unique to Traveller is false.

It crosses genres, too. Or maybe you never heard of the wildly popular Nitpicker’s guides to Star Trek, four volumes released until Paramount made them stop.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Why? As best as I can see, it's because Traveller fans

Once again, it appears you set yourself apart from Traveller fandom.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
somehow think they're different to everyone else, that they have a misplaced sense of entitlement, that they have a public share in the publishers, and that the publishers have to do what they say as a result. I dunno.

Again, I don’t see any of this. Not from what I’ve said, and not from what anyone else has said. The above does not characterize my opinions or thoughts related to Traveller.

Just in case it isn’t clear. B***hing and Moaning&#153 about things that have happened, in the past, is not a claim on publishers, publication, or any insistence of any kind other than a statement of opinion.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
But as Casey implies, how many times are people gonna flog this dead horse?

As many times as we want. This thread is probably somewhere up past the 100th time it’s been done, and probably one of the more restrained, polite, and nice of such discussions (although that’s only a guess on my part about the civility comparison).

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Traveller isn't dead, it's alive and well,

Whether Traveller is alive or dead is not relevant to the current Topic. Traveller’s state today has nothing to do with the advent of MT and then TNE many years ago, or our individual criticisms of those events.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
and as I've always said the biggest threat to the game's continuing survival is probably the "fans"

Just as fan criticism or support did not doom TNE, it will not doom any part of Traveller now. Calling it a “threat” overstates the situation; indeed, it escalates it by placing inappropriate “blame” for a non-existent problem where none need be placed.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
who just want to whinge

Why, thank you, Mistress! May I have another?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
about everything and not just get on with playing what they like to play with the version that they're already happy with.

I’m afraid this is an attempt to dictate how I should conduct myself when I’ve violated no netiquette rules. Think about that a bit.

 

[Malenfant]

I got bored after your 500th line.

Whatever it is you were going on about - my argument boils down to "Get over it". If you can't do that then at least have the maturity and decency to shut up and leave everyone else to do something constructive with the current version of game while you continue to enjoy your favourite version.

But your problem is that you refuse to admit that your attitude is unreasonable. No amount of reasonable persuasion will convince you otherwise, and I see no reason to continue wasting my time trying to do so. To be honest, I'm just sick to the back teeth of all the whinging and whining I hear from Traveller "fans". Just think what all the energy you put into complaining and grumbling about things that happened a long time ago could do if you had put to something that was actually USEFUL and CONSTRUCTIVE instead!

And you know what? You're right - I'm not a Traveller fan, in the sense that most people here are. Sure, it's fun to talk about the OTU setting, but I wouldn't go mental if anything happened to it. Heck, personally I wish that CT would die a long overdue death. I like TNE though, and I like it because it has so little in common with other forms of Traveller. It's a great scifi game in its own right, and that's why I enjoy it, and I want to see 1248 become a success.

Beyond that, I used Traveller to build the tech for my own setting, and I've been chasing a realistic worldbuilding system based on the UWPs for about two decades now - and I've finally got to the stage where I can figure one out. After I've done that, I figure there's not much left for me here.

I can easily walk away from Traveller if the publishers did something I didn't like, without feeling "betrayed" or uttering death threats at the game writers. Heck, they could close the whole thing down right now and I'd just shrug and move on instead of holding grudges for over a decade. And personally, I think that walking away from that sort of thing with dignity shows much better character than holding a grudge for years on end.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi folks !

I really have to admit, that I am no longer sure what all of this is about exactly

In some way it reminds me of discussions in parlement between conservatives and reformists.
At least, stay cool....

Generally I never had those problems with any Traveller incarnation. I was and I am still glad about any published piece of Traveller.
Of course there are aspects I really dont like in TNE (mostly the rules here), but thats the same for CT, MT or T20.
But we are free people with free minds (are we?

) and we can still ignore all those things we dont like and assimilate the things we like.

Anyway its good to hear complaints about a product as it might show producers, what people perhaps would not like in future products.
Thats just a necessary for improvements as the actual design/redesign of stuff, like Malenfants works regarding system and world building.

There are still many things to do...

Regards,

Mert

 

[spank]

well ... if you could tell them to stop the additions and the redefinitions, and direct them to do something else, what would you have them do?

That's a big IF, but for the sake of discussion, I'd ask that the PE in Question be set up farther away, a sector or two at least. there's no good reason to drop it where it was placed. As far as the redefining of other elements, It shouldn't have been done, or at least the RC could have served as a catlyst for the changes. I've commented a good bit about this in the 1248 fourm. I mean the main thrust of 1248 is the 4th Imperium, fine. But did 1201 have to be remodeled so much? Why not just move the timeline forward?

I know that it's not possible to please everyone, I'm not asking you to cater to me. I hope 1248 does very well, but it will have to do so without me. The one thing that would greatly displease me would be if The Guilded Lilly series includes any of the things that I list as complaints about 1248.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Anyway its good to hear complaints about a product as it might show producers, what people perhaps would not like in future products.

Yes, but how many times does Marc or Hunter or any other publisher need to hear the same arguments over and over, about long dead games that are totally irrelevant to anything they're publishing now? They can't change TNE. They can't change that GDW closed down. They can't change what Dave Nilsen wrote that so offended some incredibly thin-skinned "fan" who's been fighting a lone jyhad against TNE for over a decade. Those arguments are utterly, utterly pointless and irrelevant.

Yet this seems to be only the case in Traveller. I don't hear anything like the arguments, bickering, and divisiveness that happen here on such a regular basis in any other RPG community. Point out to me an argument over how someone is so mortally offended by what an author said in a previous edition of another game that he still carries on about it as if it were the end of the world years later.

People claim that they're like this because they're "passionate" about the game - but let's face it, that's just a pitiful excuse for bad behaviour. The reality is that they lack perspective, and can't see just how ultimately insignificant and currently irrelevant the problem they have with the game is. How much time have they wasted arguing their points here or on other mailing lists? How much time have other people wasted trying to hammer some sense into them? Where has it got them? Has it been beneficial to anyone at all? No, it hasn't. Has it really been worth it at all? No, it hasn't. All it does is polarise opposite camps further and divide the community up even more.

On the one hand, you can register your opinion on a new edition - if you don't like what you see then you can walk away from the game completely or continue to play what you do like and ignore what you don't, and let other people enjoy the newer versions of the game and not complain about it. On the other, you can stay put, harp on about a misplaced sense of entitlement, hold a grudge for years, grumble about change and new editions all the time, and kick up a storm every time the game you don't like is mentioned.

Which approach shows maturity? Which approach is more beneficial to the community? Personally I think the former approach is by far the more mature, beneficial, dignified, and reasonable, and the latter approach is immature, counter-productive, undignified, and unreasonable.

And if you disagree, I'd really like to hear whatever contrived justification you can come up with to convince me that walking away from something you don't like is the less mature option.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi Mal !

As I said once its hard to talk about maturity here anyway.
Its just about the love of some people to complain about something, perhaps spiced with the hope that someone picks up a personal thought

Or just thing about all the people complaining about Microsoft, but using all the products everyday day. Thats a kind of sport.
I dont suppose any complains to be irrelevant, but a continuous replay is perhaps not productive, if nothing special can be achieved by complaining.

All in all its just about taste, like and dislike and as such a bunch of thing arguing about is - ehhh - complicate. Thats maybe important to get the value of the discussion.
The bad thing regarding this discussions is that they steal valuable time.

So what, I dont take it all too serious.
I like parts of CT/MT/TNE/T20, etc. I assimilate what I like and dont care about the things that I dislike. Thats not a sign of maturity - its just practical

I am very happy with it.

The best thing we can do is to convert people from complainers into producers, i.e. let them be productive by creating the things they like.
Perhaps we will like that, too.

So, Mal, take it easy and try to work on with Your world building system. I really would like to get that.

Regards,

Mert

 

[jchurchill]

Casey made a good point a few thousand lines back...

One can continue to play CT or MT and not use TNE.
If you think TNE blows dead dogs no one is forcing you to use that system or that line for the historical progression. I'm glad I bought TNE as a PDF and not a book. [Far too many TLA's in this post already] Actually now that I think about it I received TNE as a free download. And I was still underwhelmed by it.

I guess the outrage in 1993 was really coming from something akin to watching a trilogy and having a horrible ending. Not that any of us have ever had that happen. [*Revenge of the Jedi...cough cough*] [*Phantom Menace...coughcough*] But unlike a novel or movie that we think sucks [*Matrix Revulsions...cough cough*} we can slam on the brakes with a game system or game development that we don't like.

TNE did force a number of people to create new endings to the Rebellion/Civil War and if nothing else it provoked refs and players to use creative in mitigating or avoiding TNE and its results.

Meanwhile TNE provided a whole legion of lonely sociopaths with a setting that spoke to the brooding nihilistic teen angst that many of them suffered at that time. And it kept Dave N. employed and off the streets for a part of the 1990's. For all we know the poor devil may be selling himself for $5 a throw in some dingy alley in downtown Bayonne. One hopes not but one never knows. Perhaps the only flame he is keeping now is a sad flickering flame from garbage in a 55 gallon drum. Hard Times. Hard Times, indeed my friends.



Well enough of that. Let's just move on and find unity in the fact that we are all Traveller players. Sure, different versions perhaps but we are still bound together by the unique bond of Traveller. We are that happy few, that band of brothers. I realize now that we should take our bitter words and venom and hatred away from here.

We should put all that venom and hatred where it belongs....on players of GURPS.

[What a maroon.]

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by secretagent:
[QB]One can continue to play CT or MT and not use TNE.
If you think TNE blows dead dogs no one is forcing you to use that system or that line for the historical progression.

Didn't you hear? That's "unreasonable"!!

 

[Erik Boielle]

+++++I'm glad I bought TNE as a PDF and not a book. [Far too many TLA's in this post already] Actually now that I think about it I received TNE as a free download. And I was still underwhelmed by it.+++++

You still haven't read Path of Tears have you.

Honestly, kids today just aren't prepared to put in the necesscary hours.

 

[jwdh71]

Malenfant, if Traveller "fans" bother you so much, why do you hang out with them (electronically)? From here it seems an awful lot like the pot calling the kettle black, as you seem to be able to whinge about various aspects of the unrealistic CT,which you obviously don't like, but when someone tries to say anything about TNE; which you DO like, you get testy and say that should grow up.

GDW made a mistake with the Rebellion, and then compounded it with another with TNE. The Rebellion and MT brought a whole raft of problems to Traveller, including overly complicating the design sequences, and adding new lows to errata lists (only to be bettered, or worsened, by T4). TNE ended up alienating at least as many fans as it brought on board, and was helmed by a man who, while a decent writer, liked controversy for its own sake. Deliberately alienating part of your core audience, especially when the industry is going through a shift of the magnitude the gaming industry did, is not a good idea. Now listen carefully, I'm NOT saying that TNE killed GDW, but it sure as hell didn't save it.

The investment that several people on this list have spoken about IS a valid point. This is a hobby, for most of us anyway, and people get very passionate about their hobbies, sometimes far more than their careers (I am one of them BTW, I could care less about my job, but care very much about my leisure time). It seemed at the time, while GDW was saying that the new systems were better, and you could translate your old campaigns into the new systems and eras, this was FAR from the truth.
MT and the Rebellion held the stake, and TNE used the hammer, and killed the best long-running Traveller campaigns I ever played in. The Referee, who had run his games in the OTU, slowed down with MT, and then stopped after TNE was released. The reason? Lack of support, since to continue to play in the OTU as he wanted would have meant developing ALL his own material. While this would have been good for us players, as he was the best Traveller Ref I've ever had the good fortune to play with, would have been prohibitive from a time perspective, as he had a REAL LIFE as well, with a job and family. So he stopped, and drifted into other hobbies, as have MOST of the people who I have played Traveller with over the years. Very few people have the unlimited time resources to be able to generate all the information needed to run a good Traveller campaign, so they NEED the support from the game designers. Especially for those who had been playing since the late 70's, the changes felt less like modernizing (which is problematical from several standpoints, and TNE's system wasn't anything near SOTA for the time it was released), and more like the brushoff, "Go on, off wi' ye! We want's them modern roleplayers, not the likes o' ye old codgers!"

That said, stop treating everyone here who doesn't like your particular favorite incarnation of Traveller as the bad guys, or worse, like spoiled children in need of a dressing down. We're (mostly) all adults here, and the patronizing tone wears after a while. Those of us who like TNE can continue to play in the era, and those who don't can play in the earlier eras, either CT, M:0, G:T ATL, or T20 993.

 

[Erik Boielle]

Or Space Viking.

Its like this time I spent trying to explain to a guy why In Nomine was funny rather than straight like Vampire but with angels.

He just wouldn't read Good Omens, so he didn't know what it was ripping off, so he just didn't understand.

 

[Erik Boielle]

+++++From here it seems an awful lot like the pot calling the kettle black, as you seem to be able to whinge about various aspects of the unrealistic CT,which you obviously don't like, but when someone tries to say anything about TNE; which you DO like, you get testy and say that should grow up.+++++

Actually, I think his comments are also aimed at rabid TNE fans, of which there is <cough> at least one.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by jwdh71:
Malenfant, if Traveller "fans" bother you so much, why do you hang out with them (electronically)? From here it seems an awful lot like the pot calling the kettle black, as you seem to be able to whinge about various aspects of the unrealistic CT,which you obviously don't like, but when someone tries to say anything about TNE; which you DO like, you get testy and say that should grow up.

I don't like the CT system, sure - and personally, I wish it was long gone. But that said, I don't stop people playing it though. Hell, I've got the Books and Supplements reprints, and most of the LBB adventures at home. I don't think people are stupid for not liking my favourite version of the game. You can criticise TNE itself all you like in a reasonable way - but when you start harping on about how it "ruined your life" or "destroyed Traveller" and holding grudges about it for years, then I think I'm quite justified in ripping you to pieces, because i think that's an entirely ridiculous position to take over a game. And I sure don't do that about CT.

GDW made a mistake with the Rebellion, and then compounded it with another with TNE.

That's very specifically your opinion, not fact. Stop touting it as the latter.

TNE ended up alienating at least as many fans as it brought on board, and was helmed by a man who, while a decent writer, liked controversy for its own sake. Deliberately alienating part of your core audience, especially when the industry is going through a shift of the magnitude the gaming industry did, is not a good idea. Now listen carefully, I'm NOT saying that TNE killed GDW, but it sure as hell didn't save it.

yadda yadda yadda. Yes, we've heard this a thousand times already. And? What do you want people to do about it now?

RoS was talking about things requiring "reconciliation and healing". How? What kind of "reconciliation and healing" is necessary? Do you want Marc Miller to publicly apologise for MT and TNE? Do you want Dave Nilsen to show up and say that he was wrong for trying something different? Do you want some temporal disaster to happen that makes the late 80s-early 90s disappear? What is it that you think will make the problem go away?

I'll tell you something - nothing will make it better, unless the people who still carry a cross about MT, TNE, Nilsen and GDW going down all finally decide to finally stop flogging the dead horse. Only then will there be "reconciliation and healing", because finally there'll be peace and quiet and people can enjoy what they want without fear of some random "hater" dropping in and ruining it all.

The investment that several people on this list have spoken about IS a valid point. This is a hobby, for most of us anyway, and people get very passionate about their hobbies, sometimes far more than their careers (I am one of them BTW, I could care less about my job, but care very much about my leisure time).

Does a train collector who finds that his favourite train set is being discontinued and a new set is released rant and rave about it for years on end? Does a stamp collector curse the post office when his favourite stamps are discontinued? Does a cyclist send death threats to a bike company when his favourite bicycle is discontinued and a new line is begun? No.

So why, exactly, do a bunch of 40-something roleplayers do that when a new version of their game is released? Answer me this.

And don't give me any BS about "investments" and "stocks". Your "investment" is still sitting right there in your notebooks and folders and documents. If Traveller just collapsed tomorrow, it would still be sitting there. IT DOESN'T STOP YOU FROM CONTINUING TO USE WHAT YOU'VE DONE!!! How is this so difficult for supposedly intelligent people to comprehend?!

And don't give me any crap about it being "invalidated" either. I have 200 pages or so of Mage notes that I wrote for Mage 2e, which was supposedly "invalidated" when Mage Revised came out. Yet funnily enough, I can still get out my Mage 2e rulebook, grab some players, and play using my old notes. How do you explain that?

The Referee, who had run his games in the OTU, slowed down with MT, and then stopped after TNE was released. The reason? Lack of support, since to continue to play in the OTU as he wanted would have meant developing ALL his own material.

So you blame the company for the fact that your GM didn't have the time or inclination to make his own material?! That's... extremely misguided.

I mean, what do you think other gamers do when publishers go under? Do you think that suddenly they stop playing because of a pithy excuse of "lack of support"?! Some do, sure. Some don't have the time or inclination to write their own stuff. But that said, instead of spending X days reading through a new book, you can just spend X days writing something instead. Some are just lazy. But many just keep going and continue to make their own campaigns. Because what's written on the pages of those rulebooks and their notes don't suddenly disappear when the publisher closes down.

Hell, CT was out of print and unsupported for YEARS and it still kept going throughout the MT and TNE and T4 and GURPS eras. Evidently at least some of its fans didn't decide to run around like headless chickens wondering what they'd do now that it wasn't supported anymore. How do you explain that?

While this would have been good for us players, as he was the best Traveller Ref I've ever had the good fortune to play with, would have been prohibitive from a time perspective, as he had a REAL LIFE as well, with a job and family.

This is natural. Peoples' priorities change as they get older. Some people even stop roleplaying altogether! *gasp*

So he stopped, and drifted into other hobbies, as have MOST of the people who I have played Traveller with over the years.

Most ROLEPLAYERS do this. Hell, many of them grow out of it in their 30s because their time is eaten up by other things and their interests change. Don't tell me that somehow you foist this on TNE and GDW too.

Very few people have the unlimited time resources to be able to generate all the information needed to run a good Traveller campaign, so they NEED the support from the game designers.

They don't "NEED" it any more than anyone else does. Companies shut down all the time. Games change all the time too - fans either stay or go when this happens. Usually the fans that stay are the ones that like the change, and usually the ones that go are the ones that don't like the change. Yet with Traveller, some of the fans that stay don't like the change, and feel they're entitled go harp on about it till the end of time.

Publishers are under no obligation to continue to support whatever your campaign is (as if they'd know how, given that everyone has their own TU anyway). They release their books, they hope people use them, and they keep going until they decide a change is in order, or until they close their doors. YOU - the customer - generally adapts to what THEY - the publishers - provide. If you're not interested in what the publisher provides, don't buy the books in the first place. But you don't get to tell them what to give you, and you aren't justified in whining when they don't provide it.

I didn't expect WW to directly support my Mage campaign. Why should you or anyone else expect GDW to support your Traveller campaign?

I mean, sure, it's a bummer that your GM didn't have the time/inclination to continue. But really, you have to wonder whether he really was any good at all. After all, he must have had a ton of books about the OTU, and despite all of that he couldn't come up with ANYTHING to run? Maybe he just ran out of creative mojo. Maybe he got tired. Maybe he wanted to spend his time doing other things. Maybe it could be a million other reasons that aren't anything to do with "GDW released TNE".

Either way, if you're blaming the publisher for the collapse of your game, you're blaming the wrong people.

Especially for those who had been playing since the late 70's, the changes felt less like modernizing (which is problematical from several standpoints, and TNE's system wasn't anything near SOTA for the time it was released), and more like the brushoff, "Go on, off wi' ye! We want's them modern roleplayers, not the likes o' ye old codgers!"

Now we get to the "persecuted grognard" complex. It's quite simple. You adapt, or you don't. If you don't want to adapt then stick with what you know and enjoy it. If you do want to adapt, then take up the new system and enjoy it.

Admittedly the tone of some TNE work may be "out with the old, in with the new". But again, so what? Keep playing CT if you don't like that. Problem solved.

That said, stop treating everyone here who doesn't like your particular favorite incarnation of Traveller as the bad guys, or worse, like spoiled children in need of a dressing down. We're (mostly) all adults here, and the patronizing tone wears after a while.

I'll stop treating them like spoilt brats when they stop acting like spoilt brats throwing tantrums about how their favourite toy is broken when in fact it's still completely intact.

And like I said, this is nothing to do with anyone not liking TNE. Most of these arguments don't even revolved around the game itself - they revolve around people whining that TNE destroyed their Traveller, or that they got upset at what Dave said somewhere, or a whole load of other things that are NOTHING TO DO WITH TNE ITSELF.

Those of us who like TNE can continue to play in the era, and those who don't can play in the earlier eras, either CT, M:0, G:T ATL, or T20 993.

That would be great if the people who liked the other eras would just shut up and play the damn games, instead of launching the same bloody arguments and tirades that we've heard a billion times before against TNE all the time.

Take the original thread here for example. I started it to ask some questions for Dave Nilsen, should he ever turn up here. It was going fine at first, til some idiots came along and crapped all over it with their TNE-hating and vitriol. Was that really necessary? We already knew they hated TNE, why did they feel it necessary to interrupt a perfectly civil, reasonable thread with their bile? Why couldn't they have just shut up about it and continued to participate in the parts of the forum that they liked? Why were they even reading the thread if they had nothing useful to contribute to it? Because they didn't know when to shut up, is why.