RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Recent? That stuff was published ten years ago!Originally posted by T. Foster:
. . . quoted lyrics within recent Traveller products?
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RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
The K’Kree did not evolve intelligence in pursuit of food, but rather in avoidance of and defense against predators, IIRC.
OH, well, I might as well get into the fray.
TNE- Absolutely hated, loathed, despised, cursed amnd d@mned it. They took a decent, if stodgy universe (Classic Traveller), and made it a game of Aftermath or Morrow Project. If I had wanted to play those games, I would have (and did at times).
If they wanted to change the ruleset, fine, I never liked the TNE rules, but what the heck. The Universe was what people had such a large emotional investment in. If they wanted to add spice to life, have the Empire attempt to swallow the Julians.
I used the canon material, but had my own universe that I ran things in about 50% of the time.
For me, at least, the whole stupid Virus idea, the changing of the Alien races, the Vargr being able to overcome the Imperial fleets, albeit the Sector and subsector fleets, the Aslan able to mount massive expeditions into the Imperium was ludicrous at best.
In The Regency Sourcebook, which had some good stuff in it, mainly subsector maps and data, changed the Regency too much for me to suspend my disbelief. The artwork just plain sucked, the thing about the nobles, and jump drugs was just too far out there for me to swallow.
The Rebellion was dumb, but forgivable, maybe. The TNE Era, and all that was horrible. I really was stunned that GDW would allow things to happen like the Rebellion, and Virus. It looked, to me, at the time, that they were intentionally killing off Traveller in order to get people to buy 2300AD, and The Dark Conspiracy games.
Challenge magazine was another idea I loathed, but I can see why they did it, so that T-2000 and 2300AD would have SOME press in an inhouse magazine.
I don't know who to blame, and at this point in my life, really don't care anymore since the game I loved, played for d@mn near 20 years was killed off for whatever half-baked egotistical reason by the same people who killed GDW IMHO.
As for a game system, sorry guys, I played CT since 1978, and we liked simple easy to use combat and starship construction rules. High Guard while not allowing certain things, and not being a micromanagers system, did have the advantage of being elegant.
Striker combat was "good enough" for my players, While Striker was too much, and too detailed in the building of smaller vehicles, the combat system was sound.
The TNE and late releases of MT bothered me because of the attitude shown to the "old Guard", as in GDW and crew telling us they did not care what we liked, or wanted, it would be their way or else.
TNE/MT could have been released as a Alternate Universe system, or history and would have been fine IMHO.
As for Dave Nilsen, never met him, never conversed with him.
TNE- Absolutely hated, loathed, despised, cursed amnd d@mned it. They took a decent, if stodgy universe (Classic Traveller), and made it a game of Aftermath or Morrow Project. If I had wanted to play those games, I would have (and did at times).
If they wanted to change the ruleset, fine, I never liked the TNE rules, but what the heck. The Universe was what people had such a large emotional investment in. If they wanted to add spice to life, have the Empire attempt to swallow the Julians.
I used the canon material, but had my own universe that I ran things in about 50% of the time.
For me, at least, the whole stupid Virus idea, the changing of the Alien races, the Vargr being able to overcome the Imperial fleets, albeit the Sector and subsector fleets, the Aslan able to mount massive expeditions into the Imperium was ludicrous at best.
In The Regency Sourcebook, which had some good stuff in it, mainly subsector maps and data, changed the Regency too much for me to suspend my disbelief. The artwork just plain sucked, the thing about the nobles, and jump drugs was just too far out there for me to swallow.
The Rebellion was dumb, but forgivable, maybe. The TNE Era, and all that was horrible. I really was stunned that GDW would allow things to happen like the Rebellion, and Virus. It looked, to me, at the time, that they were intentionally killing off Traveller in order to get people to buy 2300AD, and The Dark Conspiracy games.
Challenge magazine was another idea I loathed, but I can see why they did it, so that T-2000 and 2300AD would have SOME press in an inhouse magazine.
I don't know who to blame, and at this point in my life, really don't care anymore since the game I loved, played for d@mn near 20 years was killed off for whatever half-baked egotistical reason by the same people who killed GDW IMHO.
As for a game system, sorry guys, I played CT since 1978, and we liked simple easy to use combat and starship construction rules. High Guard while not allowing certain things, and not being a micromanagers system, did have the advantage of being elegant.
Striker combat was "good enough" for my players, While Striker was too much, and too detailed in the building of smaller vehicles, the combat system was sound.
The TNE and late releases of MT bothered me because of the attitude shown to the "old Guard", as in GDW and crew telling us they did not care what we liked, or wanted, it would be their way or else.
TNE/MT could have been released as a Alternate Universe system, or history and would have been fine IMHO.
As for Dave Nilsen, never met him, never conversed with him.
That's just how 1248 seems to be going. It doesn't matter that we may have played in the RC or the Regency, The 4th Imperium is where it's at now. I guess for me it will be the highway, because the Imperium doesn't intrest me at all, and the RC has had their teeth pulled and their backyard redecorated.
Recent? That stuff was published ten years ago! </font>[/QUOTE]That's what I meant -- ten years ago Dave was filling Traveller books with all manner of pop-cultural references, movie quotes, song lyrics, and so forth, but ever since then -- nada! Admittedly I haven't seen all of the Traveller products published in the last 10 years, but those I have seen have contained nary a single pop-cultural reference, movie quote, or song lyric. It's almost as if the people currently designing Traveller products actually think that those sorts of references don't belong in a science fiction game set 3000+ years in the future!Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by T. Foster:
. . . quoted lyrics within recent Traveller products?
That's just how 1248 seems to be going. It doesn't matter that we may have played in the RC or the Regency, The 4th Imperium is where it's at now. I guess for me it will be the highway, because the Imperium doesn't intrest me at all, and the RC has had their teeth pulled and their backyard redecorated. </font>[/QUOTE]in fairness, once a setting has been described and backed, how much more support does one really need?
M
Malenfant
Guest
I wonder if we should have "Flame War" threads on the boards for the other versions of Traveller. It would keep all the negativity in one place
. Though ideally it should stay off the Active Topics List - I can imagine that people could go on and on forever ranting about what they didn't like about TNE .
.
M
Malenfant
Guest
The whole POINT of a new version of a game - especially one moved into the future - is that it isn't what it once was!
Again, at the end of the day if you don't like TNE - or 1248 - then nobody is forcing you to buy or play it. Just move on to other things, or continue playing whatever version you did like. But complaining incessantly about what you don't like in the game won't make it all magically better, and just because you don't like it as it is doesn't mean that nobody else does.
Ultimately, the authors and publishers have the final say in what goes in the game - they're not even really obliged to be particularly influenced by what fans think about it (though most publishers with any sense will listen, at least). And if you don't like how that turns out in the end... well, the game isn't for you.
And as a general point - if some people have no intention of buying the game anyway because they don't like it, then why should they be justified in complaining about it?
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
That's just how 1248 seems to be going. It doesn't matter that we may have played in the RC or the Regency, The 4th Imperium is where it's at now. I guess for me it will be the highway, because the Imperium doesn't intrest me at all, and the RC has had their teeth pulled and their backyard redecorated. </font>[/QUOTE]Yet we HAVE included the fan base in the development of 1248. But there is no way we can produce a product that is going to satisfy everyone. That is impossible. Instead we produce a product that fits what we are looking to make and one that we hope fits the bill for the majority of fans. That is the best we can do.
Hunter
Authenticists in Gurps Traveller. Not just *current* references but *anything* from the past of the futures to the dawn of time from anywhere.
Solomani would IMO tend to preserve their "heritage" and the Vilani sure do. Gateway has Aztec and Imperial French cultures, Vargr in Clan MacAllister with kilts, and Chirper Zulus even. If we have SCA and Roman recreationists today who’s to say they and similar aren’t around in the future? With over 11,000 worlds there’s more than enough room for it IMO. Even 1980's recreationists. <shudder> 
There sure were and still are a lot of references and in jokes in planet, ship, and other names from CT on. The OTU always seemed to me to be California circa 1980 writ large with grav cars and still definitely doesn’t seem like 3000+ years in the future. Afterall English is still the standard language.
Slainte!Also keep in mind when TNE was written, right around the start of Vampire. Even Vampire has dropped the quotes at the start of chapters and similar for the most part but back then it was the thing to do.
Finally I rather liked the Deyo reference in Survival Margin as it starts from Deo when a Cymbeline Chip referenced a Bach library entry and thought the SDG series designator stood for "Soli Deo Gloria" [to God alone goes the glory]. Thinking their creators were gods. I liked the mix of Bach and Deyo.
Casey
M
Malenfant
Guest
Shh! Don't spread your positive thoughts on this thread! You're asking for trouble!
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Yes, we could!Originally posted by Malenfant:
I can imagine that people could go on and on forever ranting about what they didn't like about TNE
<rubs hands together with glee>
EDIT--------------
Though I'd find it easier to do so about the Rebellion.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
The whole POINT of a new version of a game - especially one moved into the future - is that it isn't what it once was!
Again, at the end of the day if you don't like TNE - or 1248 - then nobody is forcing you to buy or play it.
</font>[/QUOTE]Right, and I didn't buy TNE (until a couple of years ago, used, when it did the publisher no good at all).
As I note below, that’s a generally unreasonable statement. It is a dismissal of the investment other people make in these things. The investment of time and energy cannot be dismissed in such a manner.
And complaining about the complaining will do what?
This thread’s title contains the words "Flame War". B***hing and Moaning are going to be prevalent.
Stating other people’s concerns are complaints which they shouldn’t bother to voice is also somewhat unreasonable. If I'm buying into a “field” of products, I will express my opinions on it. This is called criticism. Sometimes criticism is justified, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it’s congratulatory, sometimes it’s harsh. We are currently going through a harsh phase.
In a phrase, “Reasonable Expectations”.
(Or, maybe, because they paid money for it before they found out what happened?)
The ongoing development of an RPG and the support for that RPG drives the energy and inspiration for that game and it’s setting. (And I speak here for the entire history of Traveller development, not just the TNE phase.)
People develop a liking for it, they reasonably expect that the support for their initial investment will continue, and that the setting into which they've committed their efforts and the precious moments of their lives will not be negated in their view.
What you take away the ongoing support, the fires of inspiration for the game and its setting begin to run dry for all but a few of the most die-hard.
It’s like getting smacked in the face and kicked in the !@#$s.
The die-hard already do what you recommend most, they go right on playing the game. They are the ones who burn the brightest on their own, without needs of the company’s original support.
Some of those who were bright continue on indeed, but eventually get worn down by other factors. Other, newer games come along, and they get attracted to them and wander away from Traveller at that point.
Those who are not amongst the die-hard, they wander off and do something else right away in the hopes, perhaps false ones, but hopes nonetheless, that the investment that they plan to make in other games and hobbies won’ be invalidated by, to what appears to them to be, purely arbitrary decisions (i.e. a lack of successful and diplomatic communication from the authors).
And it is that point right there, the investment of personal effort that people place into their hobby, that is so imporant.
Then, the “Reasonable Expectation” is that the investment will not be invalidated.
When the investment is invalidated, and I assure you, that investment was most certainly invalidated twice, once for the Rebellion and once for TNE (which didn't matter to me personally, as at that point I was already one of those who'd wandered off), it angers people.
There is no saying, reasonably, that it is all “just a game”, because the investment made is a serious one, a personally valuable one. Dismissing that value of that investment does not change the value of it, but merely attempts to ignore it.
Stating that the authors are free to do whatever they wish belabors the obvious. Of course they can. Just like any author of an SF&F epic story can change the storyline and characters in whatever manner they wish. But that doesn't change the fact that at the end of some multi-thousand page written epic, when the whole story takes a ninety degree turn and climbs up into left field, up into the balconies, and leaps off the wall to its death on the street below, that I won't be upset that I wasted my time paying for and reading all those thousands of pages to get to nothing.
Me I'd rather be playing the game or figuring out something for my game than still be angry over a decade or two old game. I certainly don't rant and wail about how Greyhawk Adventues on killed Greyhawk 20 years ago, CoC d20 killed original Call of Cthulhu, or D&D3E killed Basic D&D. I just go ahead and use all three still and the new material.
It's not like you can't easily get CT-T4 or GT and T20 and it's all in print or available for sale on PDF. Traveller's far from "killed". Now try finding first edition Jorune or a game of Tekumel or Jorune. As a fan of both I tend to view all the moaning about TNE killing Traveller with a shrug. CT had one of the longest, productive, and successful runs in RPG history. Just how many books do you need to play a game? Only one really. The rest is icing.
As always YMMV,
Casey
edit - some of the language
It's not like you can't easily get CT-T4 or GT and T20 and it's all in print or available for sale on PDF. Traveller's far from "killed". Now try finding first edition Jorune or a game of Tekumel or Jorune. As a fan of both I tend to view all the moaning about TNE killing Traveller with a shrug. CT had one of the longest, productive, and successful runs in RPG history. Just how many books do you need to play a game? Only one really. The rest is icing.
As always YMMV,
Casey
edit - some of the language
Oh well, might as well get this out of the way then.
Still don't see the rants, 10+ years later.
As for who "killed" GDW that's more to do with the lawsuit with TSR and the overprinted Desert Storm book after the Desert Shield book sold very well than anything else or any GDW people. TNE was selling well enough at the time.
Oh well, thankfully noone's accused DN of raping their childhood yet.
Casey
So then why did changes to the OTU in TNE bother you that much?
I don't see Space 1889 fans ranting about how THEIR game was killed off to get people to buy 2300AD, Dark Conspiracy, TW2K, and TNE. Oh wait, Traveller wasn't killed off, Space 1889 was.
Still don't see the rants, 10+ years later.This one I don’t quite follow. I mean I can see not liking the magazine or the content, but the concept? Challenge was a general gaming mag and considered a good one. No game company past a certain level has just one game line. TW2K esp. sold well so why not cover it? Even Dragon magazine covered more than just D&D back then (still covers more than one setting) and even White Dwarf covers more than Warhammer 40,000.
Like Frank Chadwick, creator of Virus?
Oh well, thankfully noone's accused DN of raping their childhood yet.
Casey
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Ooh! Teacher! Is that napalm I feel (ok, diluted napalm . . .)?
Almost three decades, pretty shortly.
Then, obviously, you haven't been listening in the right places. There are online forums, including Dragonsfoot and RPG.net where wailing aplenty gets done about many of game systems, d20 leading the way among the targets.
Really? I would say, not. Available, yes. Easy to get, no.
No, it’s not all available on PDF, and while PDFs make for a great quick reference, to me, they're completely useless for reading. Basically, I never buy PDFs. Ever. Give me dead trees and more of them.
I never intimated a word that it was. Although, it certainly did appear to experience heart failure followed by quadruple bypass (IG, QLI, SJG, FFE) surgery.
Except that Traveller started out with 3 books. Little Black Books, that is . . .
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