Does Classic Traveller need an update?

[kilemall]

If I were to go back to gaming with a kind of scifi theme, then it would be Car Wars, and I would use some of Aaron Allston's AutoVenture fiction to enhance the experience. I had fun with this game, but having pulled back the curtain on a lot of core store structures for fantasy and scifi ... I'm almost of the opinion that criminals are the ultimate artists as they're constantly looking to defeat a system. It's not a big deal to me, but, at one time when I was a young wide eyed scifi fan I thought the genre was about exploring new ideas about society and how people different from humans developed and do things. That's not really the case in film and TV, and has never been the case. So ... I've lost a lot of love and affection for the genre as a whole.

Well those media REQUIRES a visual 'dumbing down' where the 'story as science experiment' doesn't translate as well, especially if the scifi needs a hit to pay for all that special effect. Some of the smarter stories have been sent to the big screen, and they all get some treatment along the lines.

I do think there can be a market for thoughtful scifi, big idea scifi, but it's going to be character-driven/personalized and have some action if that isn't in the books.

Exhibit A, Foundation, where they are sticking on some extra fluff and background goods and personas never in the books, but they feel the need to translate idea into flesh (and I suspect pad the story to go multi-seasons). But the Big Ideas are still there even if Asimov never would have done them quite this way.

Now if someone ever did CJ Cherryh right, Chanur OR the human stuff, I think we could get some of that 'alienthink' going. Heck, a 2300 TV series could do all the shootemups one wants threat species and all, and still get into those lovely lovely aliens.

Another direction is going animation. Really cut down the dev/fiscal risk part, you should be able to get more experimental stuff to stick. One becomes big, and that will change the financing element that holds down the brainy stuff.

On the Striker part, I never owned a scifi/Traveller mini back in the day or now, all counters and/or graph paper. The system always worked for me better, and with my 'fix' it just feels right.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That all can work I'm sure. I stripped away old school Trek with Kirk and Spock and discovered a lot of psychiatric themes, a few health issues, but nothing really pertaining to "strange new worlds" nor " seeking out new life and new civilizations". It was largely some malefactor causing issues who had smarts but abnormal psychology. A lot of the people I grew up with were into behavioral science, and in retrospect were in the know what it came to Trek. Trek was important because it dealt with people who caused major rifts in society; wars and other social strife.

What this has to do with Traveller is that, to me, a lot of the adventures have a kind of allegorical take on contemporary security issues. Some of that delves into "Pit territory" so I won't draw any parallels here, but it seemed striking that I could find stuff in the news that mirrored the adventures of double adventures, and likewise the adventures and double adventures mirrored contemporary events. It's not a big deal. Humans create their own problems wherever they go, so it's a valid story device. I'm not really criticizing the game, but I understand it a lot better than I ever did.

I wrote John Watt's two adventures with a third installment called "Ghost Ship" to end the trilogy, and the one put into SJ Games online JTAS as a sample of what I thought pre-Imperium or Proto-Traveller was supposed to be; generic stories that could be used by a set of generic Traveller characters with or without the Imperium as a backdrop. But much of scifi media, in my opinion, is law enforcement or security scenario fiction for the smart audience. Cool. I didn't know. It's not a big deal to me.

Having said that, like I stated before, some clearer rules for the LBBs and TBBB for task resolution and more well defined combat system would have gone a massive distance to seeing this game just grow in popularity. But maybe it wasn't meant to be a big time RPG. I don't know. Personally I saw on reason for MT, TNE, T4 and so forth. If CT had just ironed out its issues from the get go, then you might see lots of other LBBs with lots of other adventures that delved into other places in the Imperium and its neighbors; Aslan space, Vargr space, K'Kree space, Zho Swords Solis etcetera. And it always baffled me as to why we didn't see more LBBs that had groups of adventurers pursuing pirates in ... I don't know ... Hiver space ... or corrupt officials in Vegan or Geonee space ... slave traders in Soli space ... gun runners in Aslan space or what have you.

I don't know what went on at GDW, and I don't care to know. I'm sorry that more LBBs for the old system weren't forthcoming. I never did like FASA's Little Brown Books for the system. I'm sorry there wasn't something like a James Cameron "Aliens" tie in ... or some other examples from popular media.

Big concept scifi like 2001 Space Odyssey or what have you, to me, is a little high falutin. It's almost pretentious. It's why I liked old school Trek so much with Kirk and Spock because there was humor, there was drama, there were fights, there were fire fights, there were battles, and even if they were largely criminal, health and espionage scenarios, there was a little social commentary. Not much, but it's there, or at least not the extent that a lot of fans thought was there.

I had fun with Traveller. I really enjoyed being with friends fighting animals and pirates run amuck on our type-S or Beowulf class starship. It was fun trying to avoid the invading army in Night of Conquest ... our group was one of the few to ever survive the ancient Droyne army in Twilight's Peak ... great times. But like I say, the combat system was wonky, there weren't other LBBs exploring Terran, Aslan and Vargr space ... I don't know why, and I really don't want to know why, I'm just sorry support for CT ended for whatever reason. It was a lot of fun.

I guess from my personal prejudicial perspective I saw a lot of high production values go into Gygax's fantasy game, especially the color maps and artwork for the later D&D modules, and I wondered why that wasn't the case with Car Wars, Champions and Traveller, or why SFB had art that was subpar in my opinion. I kind of understand a little better now, and I won't make hay over it. But when Aaron Allston published his AutoVenture series it had me scratching my head why there weren't other similar things being done for this system. Judge's Guild stuff looked absolutely horrible, and it had that loose ugly plastic packaging covering horrible art with like four color sketches. Whatever. That compared to the art in Gygax's stuff or for SJ Games stuff. I get it now, I'm not really into looking at it more, it's history and there's not much more for me to look at or examine.

I'm cool with it. Time to move on

 

[daryen]

To actually answer the original question, no, but not for the reason implied in the survey.

Here's what I would want: The Traveller Book with the errata include done as a reprint. Bonus points: take the Citizens of the Imperium section from The Spinward Marches Campaign, again corrected for errata with the correct skills charts, added as an appendix. This point is to give non-military careers as an option. Don't integrate it; just make it an appendix at the end. Extra bonus points: also do the same with The Traveller Adventure.

The point is as a nostalgia project. It gives the system and a major campaign in a pair of books and, with the CotI appendix, the one big thing it was missing (non-military careers). It is not to "correct" Classic Traveller, as that doesn't mean anything. The point is simply to provide it in its most presentable format possible, with the know corrections included, where it can be taken as is, for better or worse.

For a "corrected" version, T5 or MgT should be used. Are either of them perfect? No. But they are modern and they do work and they are probably the best versions to use now. But, for Classic Traveller, I'd still like that pair of reprints with errata.

(Why TTB instead of the LLBs or Starter Traveller? For a reprint, I immediately discard Starter Traveller as it is built to be a boxed set. The reprint has to be a book. And I like TTB over the LBBs because TTB doesn't just give the rules, but also gives you something to *do* with those rules.)

 

[coliver988]

I've used Lego for Traveller. See this post from my blog

Used to save off the images in the images folders here to post in-line as I don't use any on-line image repos. Need to find a way to post images again or wait until they've figured out the COTI Art Museum out for this platform.

 

[MichaelSTee]

I printed out a copy of TTB, removing the adventures and Spinward Marches stuff, and the Psionics chapter (as I'd never use it). Then I added the COTI section from Spinward Marches Campaign (with the correct skill tables from Supp 4 and Frank Filz' revised skill tables), then the sysgen/worldgen part of Book 6, the BoJTAS Robots article, the 3 *revised* Robot articles from TravDigest, and the 2 pages on uses of die rolls from TTA. The CT Errata pages for TTB, of course. A few other pages from here and there.
I consider this about the best Traveller book I could get, for my likes. This is my desert island RPG. Give me this and a bunch of blank notebooks, my DoubleSix dice, and writing pens, and I could be happy. YMMV, of course.
But I keep thinking about tweaking it - changing out the chargen/COTI tables with the Mega chargen, changing out the worldgen/Book 6 tables with Mega, adding a few pages of vehicle rules (maybe Joe Mauloni's?). Ah well, they say the perfect is the enemy of the good...

 

[daryen]

That's why I don't want to change anything except errata. (The CotI stuff can be separate if that makes people feel better.) I don't want any of my personal stuff because I want it to be the base from which everything else works. (And I do have my own house rules. I just don't want them in the reprint.)

And I want the Regina stuff to stay because it gives you something to start with. Maybe you use it. Maybe you just use it for inspiration. Maybe you ignore it. But at least it is something that gets things started.

Same with Aramis in TTA. The combination of both subsectors gives enough room to adventure in for a long, long time, and gives a border to the unknown if that's what the players want. You can use that Regina and Aramis combo without needing anything else from the OTU if you don't want it. It's actually a pretty good place to start.

(One can easily argue that District 268 is a way better starting point. And probably be correct. But Regina and Aramis are more than good enough even though the flavor is different.)

 

[Deldarius]

I have had great results using Legos figures for my Aweful Green Things from Outer Space / Traveller hybrid game that I have run at Travellercon-USA since 2018. For the Green Things I used pompoms, pipe cleaner and googly eyes.

I think I still have some pics floating around, will have to post them.

 

[Spinward Flow]

One can easily argue that District 268 is a way better starting point. And probably be correct.

Five Sisters + District 268 = SPACE FRONTIER

 

[aramis]

Another direction is going animation. Really cut down the dev/fiscal risk part, you should be able to get more experimental stuff to stick. One becomes big, and that will change the financing element that holds down the brainy stuff.

Except that animation is not really cheaper than live action... it's just less bounded.
Family Guy, for example, is $2 million to $4 million per episode... much the same as the cost of an entire 10-20 episode anime series...
I would expect Lower Decks is similiar in prices, especially since, unlike Family Guy, it's got lots of shots done in 3D.
The live action Treks? $8 million to $10 million... much of which is the CGI costs.

 

[Condottiere]

I suspect that future programmes will be written, that like when home studios allowed the creation of music in your bedroom, will permit a lone animator or a small team to, not exactly draw, but direct assets, much like computer games, and like stock photos, these libraries will accumulate.

Lower Decks probably has had a budget increase per episode for the last season.

At some point, it will just be cheaper, perhaps feel even more realistic, to create completely computer animated movies, because a lot of the overhead, such as insurance, location shooting, licenses, star power, won't be an issue.

 

[Fovean]

At some point, it will just be cheaper, perhaps feel even more realistic, to create completely computer animated movies, because a lot of the overhead, such as insurance, location shooting, licenses, star power, won't be an issue.

As a cinematographer, I dearly hope you’re wrong.

There is no substitute for the real thing. It’s why we always say and strive for “doing it in-camera” and the “fix it in post” trope has withered away. Do’t get me wrong, half my bread and butter is shooting VFX plates and elements and I love it. But going to a completely artificial environment would suck. There’s still too much uncanny valley to cross if you’re dealing with humans in your story.

There’s a reason - besides ego and bragging rights - that Tom Cruise and Doug Liman want to go to the ISS.

 

[whartung]

Except that animation is not really cheaper than live action... it's just less bounded.

How much of that is talent salaries vs production costs?

In WoW, they have cut scenes as part of the gameplay. They have 3 kinds.

The first is simple "RP" where NPC characters in the walk around and talk (either with voice acting, or just text). This stuff is pretty low fidelity.

The next is rendered using the in game 3D renderer (and, perhaps, a specific cut scene renderer), but it's effectively the same models as the game artifacts, just with better lighting, and some meaningless mouth motions. They very well may have a technique to reduce the poly count of models used in game, and use higher poly count models for these. For lack of a better word, it's certainly "uplifted" game assets used in these.

This engine is very good, and routinely incorporates player characters in the scenes (which is how we know its using game assets directly).

Then, there's the full boat, zillion dollar "play the video" rendered CGI cut scenes. Top drawer, high quality stuff.

As the community is continually starved for content, I've always favored them doing more "story" vignettes using the in game system. The idea is that it gives the creators an outlet for more detailed story telling, but is uses "cheap", in game assets. All of the work done for these episodes is, essentially, already done in terms of the bulk modeling. They just need to compose, block, choreograph, and get the camera angles. Add in the voice overs and sound effects.

Not saying it's free, but it should be really cheap. (They may well need custom assets for these). But it seems to me they should be able to one every couple of months for a very low cost.

I wouldn't mind seeing an entire movie done in this quality, frankly.

This is one that's done in game, on the machine with the internal GPU vs pre-rendered and delivered as a video.

 

[Condottiere]

As everyone must have noticed, after Napster, live performance and merchandizing was the way to financial success for most music acts.

Theatre, whether Broadway musicals or Shakespeare in the park, is likely to increase in popularity.

However, unless the box office recovers, very few studios are going to risk blockbuster like budgets on unknown quantities (even before, hence sequels, franchises and reboots).

The Mandalorian is shot live, against high tech video screens, so minimizing location shooting.

Characters are recast, cutting down on salaries.

Deep fakes don't necessarily have to be about famous celebrities, you hire some actor from central casting, and impose a computer created body on him, whether that of a dead star, or a hulking orc.

Going further, directors just call up a computer programme, point and click how they want a sprite to move speak, emote, etcetera, let the assistant programmers clean it up, refine it with the film editor, and print.

The question as to how fast this progresses is production cost, and at some point, it will be comparatively peanuts.

 

[aramis]

Deep fakes don't necessarily have to be about famous celebrities, you hire some actor from central casting, and impose a computer created body on him, whether that of a dead star, or a hulking orc.

Going further, directors just call up a computer programme, point and click how they want a sprite to move speak, emote, etcetera, let the assistant programmers clean it up, refine it with the film editor, and print.

The question as to how fast this progresses is production cost, and at some point, it will be comparatively peanuts.

Deep fakery got its start in movies... to avoid a recasting of the then alreadty deceased George O'Hanlon... Wasn't quite good enough, so a partial use of an impersonation... but enough of George O'Hanlon to list him in the credits
The use for Tarkin and Leia in Rogue One was still climbing up the far side of the uncanny valley.
Truly believable? still takes megawatt-hours of computer time. And requires many MW/h to train for a specific person... and requires neural network programming techniques. Which is what makes it hard to use and expensive.

 

[Condottiere]

Programmes will get more sophisticated, shortcuts will be invented, and computing power will increase, or they'll borrow it from the Cloud.

Automation will be the unemployment of us all, or most of us, anyway.

 

[whartung]

Well an aspect of this is the recent shooting accident on the movie set in the past week, and basically a call to remove live firearms from the set and do everything through CGI.

The Netflix moving "Extraction" was filmed in India, where, apparently, they can't even use replicas like Airsoft guns. All of the firearms were rubber, and it was all done through CGI. They did a really good job of it.

At the same time, however, we can look back at the movie "Heat". And remark, not so much that they were using live firearms in the heist, but that fact that they recorded the gunfire live from the heist set to give it that echoing resonance off the downtown buildings. They tried post processing "gunshots", but the director was unhappy with the sounds and feel, so they were able use the recordings done during the shoot.

It also reminds me of a long ago behind the scenes clip of the scene in Star Wars where they're running for the Falcon on the Death Star.

It was funny to hear, someone, I think Harrison Ford, yelling "BANG" every time he fired.

And, yea, the Tarkin and Leia in Rogue were...creepy.

I didn't really care for the "younging" processing they did in "The Irishman" with Pesci and De Niro.

 

[kilemall]

How much of that is talent salaries vs production costs?

In WoW, they have cut scenes as part of the gameplay. They have 3 kinds.

The first is simple "RP" where NPC characters in the walk around and talk (either with voice acting, or just text). This stuff is pretty low fidelity.

The next is rendered using the in game 3D renderer (and, perhaps, a specific cut scene renderer), but it's effectively the same models as the game artifacts, just with better lighting, and some meaningless mouth motions. They very well may have a technique to reduce the poly count of models used in game, and use higher poly count models for these. For lack of a better word, it's certainly "uplifted" game assets used in these.

This engine is very good, and routinely incorporates player characters in the scenes (which is how we know its using game assets directly).

Then, there's the full boat, zillion dollar "play the video" rendered CGI cut scenes. Top drawer, high quality stuff.

As the community is continually starved for content, I've always favored them doing more "story" vignettes using the in game system. The idea is that it gives the creators an outlet for more detailed story telling, but is uses "cheap", in game assets. All of the work done for these episodes is, essentially, already done in terms of the bulk modeling. They just need to compose, block, choreograph, and get the camera angles. Add in the voice overs and sound effects.

Not saying it's free, but it should be really cheap. (They may well need custom assets for these). But it seems to me they should be able to one every couple of months for a very low cost.

I wouldn't mind seeing an entire movie done in this quality, frankly.

This is one that's done in game, on the machine with the internal GPU vs pre-rendered and delivered as a video.

Using game engines and assets to tell stories is a subgenre called Machinima.

Machinima - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's kind of stalled, but the engines just get better and better. At some point someone will break out with some quality production.

I strongly suspect Star Citizen is a CGI film engine disguised as a crowdfunded game.

One of my faves is the Clear Skies Trilogy in the Eve franchise, this is the first one-

Clear Skies (machinima) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Fovean]

Well an aspect of this is the recent shooting accident on the movie set in the past week, and basically a call to remove live firearms from the set and do everything through CGI.

A tangential aspect IMO. That tragedy was caused by indefensible negligence.

There is absolutely no need for real firearms and ammunition on a movie set. There are highly accurate prop replicas that cannot chamber real ammunition and only fire blanks, which are usually classified as quarter-, half- or full loads. There are rules and stipulations about safe firing distance based on the strength of the blanks, and required protection and safety precautions. If, you know, you want to avoid that Han Solo “bang!” thing. Or if for some reason you can’t find some hungry college kid who wants to make movies to put in muzzle flashes from a stock library for pennies on the dollar. Hell, that same kid can probably fatten up the sound bed for you too.

That production cut corners, plain and simple.

Yes, I did indeed say that “real is always better” just a few posts up thread. That was in reference to CGI replacing physical production. It doesn’t matter how experienced one is with real firearms, or how professional one might be. Real weapons should never be used for make-believe.

Ok, rant off.

 

[Spinward Flow]

That tragedy was caused by indefensible negligence.

There is absolutely no need for real firearms and ammunition on a movie set. There are highly accurate prop replicas that cannot chamber real ammunition and only fire blanks, which are usually classified as quarter-, half- or full loads. There are rules and stipulations about safe firing distance based on the strength of the blanks, and required protection and safety precautions. If, you know, you want to avoid that Han Solo “bang!” thing. Or if for some reason you can’t find some hungry college kid who wants to make movies to put in muzzle flashes from a stock library for pennies on the dollar. Hell, that same kid can probably fatten up the sound bed for you too.

That production cut corners, plain and simple.

Last I've heard, the set was not safe before the incident ... the union people walked off the set in protest, got replaced (because of course) and the tragedy happened after the walkout due to the replacement people NOT following proper safety procedures (because they weren't union people who "knew the rules" surrounding such things and WHY those rules exist the way they do).

 

[Fovean]

Well an aspect of this is the recent shooting accident

Hey whartung - I apologize if my last post came across as an attack on you. You made good observations. That situation with that film hit pretty close to home.

Also I hope my comments don’t somehow discourage others from posting their thoughts.

Again, my apologies.